LOL. When I started getting into racing (early 1980's), there were very few parts for the Windsor engines. All the serious Ford guys were into the 351C. People laughed at the Windsor engines, but since they were what was being built, it was a fact that they would take over, even if no one believed it. Then they went fuel injected. No one took the EFI engines seriously, and swore that no one would ever race them. It would always be a carburetted world. Now it's the mod engines. They are the future, and as popular as the Windsor pushrod engines are today, they are fading. Fast. I think they'll be in the minority in 5 years, let alone 10.

Take care,
-Chris

Oh man, now look what happened. This argument turned Marty into Rodney King.:D

I have to agree with Chris. 10 years from now, the 302 will have been out of new cars for what 17 years? That means kids starting to drive will have never had a new 302 in their lifetime, assuming licensing age is still 16.

It seems reasonable enough to assume 20 year old technology is old school, after all the '82 had carbs.;) I don't think it changes the fact that it will still be around, and the 'die hards' will still be building them.

I must seem really old school then. I was brought up thinking that the windsors were the "Low Performance" v-8s. Honestly, if its not in a fox body or a '65, I will rip the darn W out and drop in a 4v cleveland. Maybe even in the two exceptions, given I could make it fit.:D

But then the only 'vintage' Mustang engines I've ever been exposed to first hand were BOSS 302's. How lucky am I?

does this mean i get a couple of million dollar's, hehe, send it:D :D :p

hey, I know you're never going to sell it (better not!), but what was your highest offer on the Elliott spoiler?

Just curious.

:)

Take care,
-Chris

100.00 buck's, just laughed & locked it in my trunk, it now sit's prowdley with my nascar stuff, it is not for sale at all, thank's bro.;) :D , btw a guy said , i wouldnt wash all the rubber mark's etc off, duhh, like i was going to do that, if it was only auotgraphed by the awesome one, oh yeah.:D

Yeah, he was flown to the local hospital after the crash, so an autograph was out of the question, although I might be able to pull some strings.

I knew you'd like it. I made sure to get a piece that had part of his 94 on it too, for verification. This is a picture from the paper of him being pulled from the wreck. The piece you now have is the part you see sticking out in front, on the passenger side (all red).

Take care,
-Chris

http://homepage.mac.com/pkrwud/.Pict.../NewsClip.jpeg

oh man, is there anyway you could print off that pic, my printer is f----- , that piece is going no where man, my bud at work really did offer me 100.00 for it, i said no way, not for sale, end of story, let me know what nascar stuff you want there's a nascar stor every 5 block's in chatt. # 9 hat? what ?:)

I'll mail it tomorrow.

:)

Take care,
-Chris

cool , send me your nascar request's in the letter, will do what i can.:D :cool:, oh yeah you wanted a jeff gordon hat, right, bwahahaha:D

DIE!!! MILKTOAST!!!

hehehe

:)

Take care,
-Chris

As far as I'm concerned, with almost 500hp at the crank in a street driven/legal car, I don't car what technology is in the motor, if I finish first, I'm happy.

I don't think that anybody will ever sell 500hp affordable cars to everybody. So I don't think my car will be outdated anytime soon.

Unit - All of those engines you mentioned were rated in gross horsepower, so it takes over 300 hp by those ratings to match up to the 260 net hp of a new GT.

Future of the 5.0
 

My User Name indicates my preference but I have to say this: It doesn't matter if the pushrod 5.0 is superior to the 4.6 OHC engine or not, the fact that Ford is churning out tens of thousands of 4.6 V-8's in their various lines and not 5.0 V-8's is what will cause the modular 4.6 to dominate, eventually. It's as much a matter of both math and marketing as anything else.

I can't offer a time-frame but the 4.6 will dominate simply because it'll be the only Ford V-8 engine readily available. Like it or not, pushrod technology will slowly become a distant second in buyer preference as young guys grow up knowing only OHC tech and see the 5.0 as antique, just as another generation saw the Ford flathead V-8 - which dominated during the late 1940's - early '50's Hot Rod era - until the Chevy V-8 was introduced in '55. Then, within a few years, flatheads were abandoned by anyone looking for real power.

The 5.0 won't 'die' like the flathead, it'll still be seen as there are zillions still around but eventually they will just age out of the market and while you may still see a few 5.0's powering 'old' Mustangs and kit cars in 25 years, they'll be considered ancient and out-of-date. Guaranteed.

Frankly, right now, I still prefer my 5.0 for a multitude of reasons but I have no illusions that it will still be around in another decade and I've adjusted to the fact that no matter how much I like the 5.0 and whatever the current shortcomings of 4.6 the modular V-8 will be powering my next Mustang.

Of course, I intend to hang on to my 5.0 powered LX quite a few more years before I surrender to 'progress' and a 4.6. Hopefully, by then they'll have improved even more, aftermarket parts will be plentiful and the factory-stock 'Stangs will be running low 13's all day.

I can live with that.

And they were all grossly underrated for insurance purposes. Not to mention there isn't nearly the difference between gross and net as you think their is. Do you even know what the difference is? Net is measured as installed in the car. Gross is basically an engine dynoed with minimal accessories. Alternator, water pump. On an older engine that may not have come with all the extra accessories, there is less of a difference. Here's some data to make my point. My dad ran a 427 powered 1963 XL Convertable at the 1/4 mile for a few years. It's the same 427FE engine I have now. The engine was rated at 425hp. By your statement, that would maybe be 350hp net, correct? It trapped 100mph short shifting because of a strange cutting out problem at the top of 3rd in a 5000lb body. If you were to use the standard calculation for weight reduction and trap speed, that would be 117mph in your 00GT. The 427FE later was given a dry sump oiling system, far more aggressive heads, and a more aggressive camshaft grind. It remained rated at 425hp. The 290hp Boss 302 engine really made more like 400hp. My uncle has seen the dyno numbers on a detuned 8.0:1 CR Boss 302 engine that dynoed 364hp from the same builder who had his 69 Boss 302 engine. The 428CJ was rated at a ridiculous 335hp, in actuality it made better than 400hp.

Don't get into older Mustang's with me. You don't know what you're talking about, and I do. It won't be a pretty debate. I said I was done with this topic, so quit addressing me.

The idea I'm somehow defensive on this issue is asinine. I emailed Hammer to try and clear that up. The bottom line is, the more I learn about the new 4.6L, the less and less impressed with the engine's so called "potential." It will never be able to compete engine vs engine with the 5.0. Will it remain around? No. Ford will phase the engine out of production shortly. The 5.0 SOHC will replace it, and the 4.6L will likely fade into the background as the 289 and 260ci V8 did back in the 60s. The 289 was one hell of an engine, but it was setup to crank. The 302 that replaced it is superior in many ways, but it was never really setup so aggressively.

The 4.6L was not designed to be a high performance engine. It's stroke is too long for a small displacement V8, it has only 2v per cylinder, and with a small bore engine, that restricts head flow capability. There is no evidence to support SOHC 2v V8 engines designed for normal cars are significantly superior to OHV pushrod engines that I've ever been able to find. Bending the port around the pushrod hurts a pushrod engine vs an OHC engine, but tunnel port heads allievate that problem. Unfortunately, tunnel port heads are much more susceptable to cracking and other issues you don't see as often or ever on standard design OHV heads. Regardless, if you have an engine that redlines where the SOHC 4.6L does, I can't see a performance advantage over the 5.0L pushrod engine, period.

As to PKRWUD's comment. Yes, the 5.0 will become more scarce. Especially if the SOHC 5.0 is released. It will not disappear. Will it become obsolete? As I quoted above, it's already obsolete, just like the SOHC 4.6L was obsolete when it hit the market originally back in 1992. Will the 5.0 pushrod be looked upon as a dinosaur in 5-10 years? Maybe. In comparison to a SOHC 2v engine? Not if the person who's casting the opinion knows much about engine technology.

The 281 has it's merits. The 302 has it's merits. Neither is the optimal configuration for today's performance engines. The real question to me is why do the 281 guys expect the SOHC 281 to compete with a legend? The DOHC 281 is another animal entirely, and quite frankly the DOHC 330 impresses the crap outta me. I really don't think camshaft operated engines have a long time left. It won't be too long before valves are controlled by electronics and hydraulics in my opinion. I wouldn't doubt that to be an actual event in 10 years. Realistically, I think it's pretty damn hard to predict 10 years into the future, period. Do you think in 1977 people thought there would be a 302 producing 225hp, 300lb/ft of torque, and getting 20mpg around town? Do you think in 1968 People thought the top engine offering in a tiny Mustang II would be a 134hp 302? Maybe they predicted the gas shortage in 1963?

My honest prediction, even though any prediction could be grossly inaccurate? Cars will gradually move to AWD. They will be powered by engines that run on recyclable fuels, they will not have camshafts, or catalytic converters, nor will the cars be large. Standard driving will be accomplished with an auto-drive feature, possibly mandatory in rush hour, and there will probably be a self-drive option. The days of the high performance street car will be mostly over, and licensing an old gasoline powered car for the street will be nearly impossible. This will be how it is within the next 15 years. Most of it probably within the next 10 years.

5.0 vs 4.6
 

Unit 5302:

Interesting post bit I think you're a bit too pessimistic about the rapid demise of the gasoline engine - much less the death of the street cars that we all know, drive and love.

Predictions are easy and I have no way to contradict yours except with my own perceptions of what the public wants, what they'll pay for it and how much government intervention will affect the situation.

I do know that in 1950 it was commonly predicted that we would all either be 'driving' cars that basically drove themselves or wizzed around the sky like in a Star Wars movie. Not even close, were they?

Electronics have certainly played a big part in engine development the last 20 years and will continue to do so in the future, that's clear. Whether this extensive use of electronics ends the automobile as we know it any time soon is still questionable.

I read lots of pie-in-the-sky predictions about the 'Car of the Future' in various journals that preclude the modified street car as you described it but most assume a lot, such as costs being feasible. Reliability factors are often ignored in these rosy scenarios, too.

Granted, in 1968, no one saw computers coming and no one saw the ECM becoming the brain of the average car in 20 years so anything is possible but people are still people and change is often resisted so a lot of dire predictions for the end of the gasoline engine don't faze me much, but then, as Dennis Miller used to say: I could be wrong.

One place you are very right is in your assessment of the HP ratings for 1960's Ford V-8 engines being way under-rated, mostly for insurance purposes, as you stated. This isn't arguable and those who do don't know all the facts and just assume that because the HP numbers were gross instead of net, they were wildly inflated. On the contrary. Even with the gross ratings, the HP ratings on the performance Ford engines were always low.

I forgot that the 5.0 SOHC is replacing the 4.6 so that will change things a bit. How much remains to be seen. In any case, I love the 5.0 and always will for many reasons familiar to all who know 5.0's.

The 5.0 pushrod engine will near-disappear in time, as the big blocks did, because they won't be manufactured any more, parts will dry up and folks will 'move on' to other engines to play with.

My prediction: We'll survive - and have fond memories of the mighty (pushrod) 5.0 to bore our grandkids with someday.

Back again... ;)

Thanks for the explaination of gross and net measurements Unit... Good stuff for the newer guys....

I think I need to explain myself here...
I'm more a fan of the SOHC\DOHC modular family of engines than a fan of the 4.6 2v. (although it has served me quite well)

Whether or not you believe that the 4.6 itself has potential or not, which obviously creates a good discussion ;), the modular OHC family of engines, which is growing to include a 4.9 2v and 5.0 4v soon, in my opinion has PLENTY of potential that's hard to deny.

Just look at the FR-500, Cobra R, Lightning, and of course, that darn 03 Cobra...

and oh yea,
Thanks for the email Unit. I truly appreciate it.

See folks... we CAN all get along. ;)