Life part 2

[bigwhitecobra]

I don't know if any of you watch Penn and Teller's show named, "Bullshit", but it just went off. It's a half hour based show in which they try to show arguements for and against whatever the given subject is. Good show. It's on Showtime. Check it out.

Anyway, thier show tonight was about the Bible, which is why I am posting again about this subject.

They gave me some fodder for an arguement about whether or not the Bible is the word of God or the work of man. I learned that during the same time that Jesus was walking the Earth, there were other so called Messiah's walking the Earth doing the same things Christ was doing. Healing the sick, raising the dead, walking through walls, and so on. Unfortuneately I can't remember some of the names, but there is written proof of them.

Back to the homosexual debate, sortof. In the same chapter sevral verses away from the verse that condems homosexual activity is another verse tell us to stone our children if they do not listen to thier parents. People pick and choose what parts of the Bible they want to believe, and don't hand me the crap about our society not condoning this stuff. If you believed the Bible to be word for word the Will of God, you had beeter live by it, right?

Yeah, like I have said, the Bible is a good book, but not much more than that. God does exist, Jesus did walk the Earth, He is the Son of God, but then again, aren't we all children of God?

Stop wasting your time trying to figure out the bible, and start living your life. Live as you were meant to live. Excersice what the creators of the bible did, free will.

In truth, I believe in Predestination. To a certain extent..... Who ever reads this, was meant to read it, I was meant to write it. Who ever posts on here, had no other choice than to post. You can only post. nd what you post was already decided.

A little to much Matrix Revolutions for you? Me too.....but it's true. You can only do what you were meant to do. No more, no less. Sucks huh?

Did you know that the Bible has a certain number of people that it says will go into heaven? I'm not about to read the whole Bible just to find that one little pharse, but I have read it before. I'll try to find it. So, if there is a set number of people going to heaven, because God knows what you will and will not do, then isn't that predestination?

Also, there is now evidence that Moses didn't cross the "RED" Sea, but that he crossed the "REED" Sea. Basically, it's a marsh, that when the winds blow froma certain direction for more than a few days, drys up.

Biblical Historians are the ones to blame for this story, not atheist. So what we have is, instead of the miracle of the Red sea parting to save Moses an the Hebrews, we have the picture of a bunch of Hebrews being saved because a marsh was dry......

So.....God didn't part the Red Sea? Then that means the Bible isn't an exact truth. It was exaggerated. Go figure.

[bigred90gt]

Oh man, this oughtta be fun.

[Mr 5 0]

bigwhitecobra:

I have no intention of further attempting to dissuade you from your rejection of the divinity of Jesus Christ and the bible as the Word of God. You have chosen to reject both as mere illusions and man-made stories and so it's only natural that you will seek out those who agree with you, including entertainers, to justfy what you want so very much to believe - or, in your case, not believe. You are a humanist, whether you realize it or not. You mouth the word 'Christian' then reject the very words Christianity is based on and now come here to claim that: hey, maybe that Jesus dude wasn't the real deal, after all, so why do I need to obey anything he says, anyway? You want to do what you want to do and feel good about that at the same time, so you 'find' all kinds of oh-so logical reasons to reject Jesus and the bible - and guess what? There are a ton of atheists out there who are all too willing to give you all kinds of reasons to question, doubt and, ultimately, reject the Christian faith to go live as you please, yet still claim to 'believe' in God and Christ - sort of, maybe, kinda. You make up your own moral code and give God lip-service while soaking up weird propositions from Penn and Teller, of all people, about Jesus not being the only Messiah and so on. I won't even bother refuting the nonsense you posted here as I've already wasted far too much time on one who has no intention of hearing what he doesn't wish to hear (or read). My time is too valuable to waste on those who are deaf and blind and want to be their own savior. I long ago made my case with you - and you ignored it, for the most part. Fine. I'm done with the issue, now. I have no interest in arguing forever with someone who is not only non-responsive but uses secular TV shows for spiritual information. Whatever. I've come to the conclusion that on matters of faith and spirituality you believe whatever the last person you listened to, said. Sad, but not uncommon, today.

O.K. You've made your choice. You're obviously content with it. So be it. That is your right, of course. Now, live with it - but please, stop using the name 'Christian' for yourself as it insults the living God that created you when you casually reject His Word and His Son and start looking for magicians with a show entitled 'Bullshit' to 'enlighten' you on spiritual matters. How ridiculous. I do reget your decision to reject the bible to 'do your own thing' but you are a young guy and I trust that when your own set of 'beliefs' and your self-made moral code fail you, as they will, because they rely on human standards and morality, not God's, you'll regain the respect for God, Jesus Christ and the bible that all three demand and deserve. Until then: Good luck.

[Crazy Horse GT]

man, no arguement, but i would be very afraid not to believe in the truth of jesus, the verse you speak of is 144,000 will enter heaven, it's a jehova?sp. witness untrue belief, if that were true, then if they had more than 144,000 member's, which one's are the chosen? anyway, politic's & religion alway's lead to arguement's, i believe in jesus! that's all.

[bigwhitecobra]

I am only stating that there are other possibilities that what is quoted in the Bible. It is my theory that the Bible, which may have started out being the word of God, is now the work of MAN. No more no less. Does God exist? Without hessitation, YES. Did he create the heavens and earth? Again, YES. Did His son walk the earth and heal peple? YES. Is the Bible the absolute word of God? Not by a long shot.

For man to write the Bible, whether or not it was inspired by God, is inherently flawed. We are given Free Will. God can not override Free Will, or His creation is Flawed. No matter how much you preach the Bible to be true, it is bound by human nature to be flawed, or wrong. If even one word was added that is not the word of God, then it is no longer true. And I am sure that it has more than one word added to it for people to better understand it. But once you add one word to it, what's another, or another, or another. Soon you have what may have started out being the word of God, but is now the work of man.

Take for instance man's using only the parts of the Bible that he agrees with. No man shall lay with another man. Ok, fair enough. What about the verses that say we should Stone to death any woman that is found to be, basically, a hooker? What about the passage that states we are to Stone to death the children that do not obey thier parents? What do you say to that? Why do we not practice that? Because we are civilized? Or, is is because of the statement, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."? Or is it because we know that that is cruel, and we just plain don't like that part? Or is it because we know deep down inside that the Bible is full of bogus rules, meant to control the masses?

Does the Bible say anything about a woman lying with another woman? I haven't found that verse yet. So, as of now, I have to believe that being homosexual is only ok if you are a woman....something the men of this world would love. If there is a verse that exists, I will gladly retract my last statement, but as I have said, I haven't found it yet.

I believe in God and Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus walked the Earth and was the Great Teacher. Why? Because so much has been written about Him. Not just biblically. The Romans wrote about His crusifiction. So he did die the way that has been described in books from that time period. NOT just the Bible.

Did Noah really gather 2 of every lliving creature? We are meant to believe he did, right? Think of the logistics involved with that. Did Noah go from continant to continant, gathering 2 of everything in the world? Did he make it to Antartica? What about Greenland, Iceland, New Zealand, Austraila, New Hamshire, Norway, every island in all the oceans, England, Wales, etc.? After Gathering them, did he get them all back to where they came from? Or is there a simpler explaination? I am not a historian, so I'll leave that to them, but the point still stands.

Did Moses ever live? Show me one shred of evidence outside the Bible. He wandered the desert for 40 years, right? Show me some artifacts from that wandering. Surely we could find some, we're talking about thousands of people walking around the desert. I'm sure that they left a little bit behind them somewhere.

You keep saying that you feel sorry for me. Don't. I know in my heart that God does in fact exist. I know in my heart that in fact Jesus does exist. I also know in my heart that the Bible is, at best man's attempt to speak for God. Even in the Bible it says that we can not know God. How can you tell me that the Bible, is the Word of God, if we can not know Him, His plans, or His ideas? You, along with millions of others, have been corrupted by the Bible. You, my friend, are one of the flock that has been decieved. Have you ever thought that just maybe the Bible was inspire by Satan? Think about it for a split second before you have a massive brain hemorage. Even the Good Book tells you that the Devil is the most beautiful thing in creation. He is more attractive to man than anything man has ever encountered. What better way to decieve man than with the supposed Word of God? Now, I'm not saying that the Bible is Satan's work. But I am saying that if man changed one word, or exaggerated one story, it is now as useless as a football bat. And what better target to corrupt man, that with God's own word?

Just think about it, for longer than the time it takes you to get all huffy and puffy. Actually let this thought wander around in you head, pray about it, and listen to your heart. Jesus lives in your heart, right? Well, maybe he has some thoughts for you. Who knows?

Later.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by bigwhitecobra :

I am only stating that there are other possibilities that what is quoted in the Bible. It is my theory that the Bible, which may have started out being the word of God, is now the work of MAN. No more no less. Does God exist? Without hessitation, YES. Did he create the heavens and earth? Again, YES. Did His son walk the earth and heal peple? YES. Is the Bible the absolute word of God? Not by a long shot.

You are wrong as you can be. As I've stated to you before: the very knowledge of God and Jesus you claim to believe in came to you from the bible. Whether you first heard about God and Jesus from your parents, a minister, a friend or a tract or book, all knowlege we have today of God and Christ came from the bible. You cannnot deny this with any credibility.

For man to write the Bible, whether or not it was inspired by God, is inherently flawed. We are given Free Will. God can not override Free Will, or His creation is Flawed. No matter how much you preach the Bible to be true, it is bound by human nature to be flawed, or wrong. If even one word was added that is not the word of God, then it is no longer true. And I am sure that it has more than one word added to it for people to better understand it. But once you add one word to it, what's another, or another, or another. Soon you have what may have started out being the word of God, but is now the work of man.

Same faulty premise I shot down long before with the fact that God is omnipotent - all powerful - and did not allow mortal men to lie about him and call it 'God's Word'. You apparently assume an 'absent God' that simply watches mankind from heaven, like we would watch ants in an ant farm, and that He has no hand in our lives at all. Not so. His Word is true because He kept it that way. Your mistrust of the God you claim to believe in is rather sad.

Take for instance man's using only the parts of the Bible that he agrees with. No man shall lay with another man. Ok, fair enough. What about the verses that say we should Stone to death any woman that is found to be, basically, a hooker? What about the passage that states we are to Stone to death the children that do not obey thier parents? What do you say to that? Why do we not practice that? Because we are civilized? Or, is is because of the statement, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."? Or is it because we know that that is cruel, and we just plain don't like that part? Or is it because we know deep down inside that the Bible is full of bogus rules, meant to control the masses?

Your lack of understanding of scripture is painful to see manifested in these childish misinterpretations that you obviously cannot understand at all. Read and learn.

To answer your question: One of the verses you quote is from Leviticus 20, verse 13: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. This verse was an instruction for man not to have sex ('lie with') another man. Sodomy. Try to understand that in the early centuries of mankinds existence God used His prophets to instruct the Jews, His chosen people, how to survive and prosper. This was to strengthen the race and to help it prosper but also to preserve the line for Jesus to descend from. The entire Old Testament was a prelude to the coming of Jesus. The line of David had to be kept pure...and it was. Sodomy would have weakened the lineage, as would have intermarriage. They were all prohibited. Stoning was an accepted manner of capital punishment in those days and for many centuries following, right into the time of Jesus. Harsh punishment was necessary to keep the Jews morally clean and to set moral and 'legal' standards, all from God, not man. It all had a purpose. God's purpose.

What you totally fail to comprehend is that when Jesus came to earth as a man and died for our sins, the 'old covenent' was finished and set aside. Jesus fulfilled all of the Old Testament Law because He was perfect in every way; mind, body and spirit. Jesus said this more than once. He didn't come to negate the OT law, but to fulfill it. He did so, on the cross. Now, as Christians, we live under the New Covenent, based on Jesus' summation of the Ten Commandents as 'To love your God with all your heart, mind and soul" and to 'Love your neighbor as yourself". 'Neighbor' meaning your fellow man. Everyone. Stoning another for some infraction is not necessary for those who love Christ and accept Him as Savior. The obvious necessity to not commit sodomy or to obey your parents is inherent in Jesus life and words...all recorded in the bible - and nowhere else. Your characterization of the bible as full of 'bogus rules meant to control the masses' is right out of the atheists playbook used to attack scripture. How sad that you take the name of Christ and spit on His holy Word in the same breath. How very sad.

Does the Bible say anything about a woman lying with another woman? I haven't found that verse yet. So, as of now, I have to believe that being homosexual is only ok if you are a woman....something the men of this world would love. If there is a verse that exists, I will gladly retract my last statement, but as I have said, I haven't found it yet.

The New Testament instructs believers to be pure and sexually undefiled and it mentions homosexuality as a sin. That makes the case against lesbianism quite clearly. Jesus didn't mention drug use, either, but the admonition against allowing anything to 'master you' alludes to all forms of addiction, including drugs. Breaking the law is also forbidden unless that law goes against bibical instruction. Wake up and actually read and try to understand the bible, it's context and it's purpose. It isn't about 'controlling' you, it's about God's love for you and how to live a fruitful, happy life. How tragic that you adopt the atheist view of God's Word and yet still prattle on about being a 'Christian'.

I believe in God and Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus walked the Earth and was the Great Teacher. Why? Because so much has been written about Him. Not just biblically. The Romans wrote about His crusifiction. So he did die the way that has been described in books from that time period. NOT just the Bible.

"Great Teacher"? What an insult to the Son of God! Jesus was hardly written about by the Romans and many people convicted of crimes against the state were crucified in that period of history, not only Jesus. It was fairly common. Jesus was either who He said He was - God incarnate - or a total fraud and liar and certainly not someone to be worshipped. Make a choice - but can the 'great teacher' nonsense that insults His divinity.

Did Noah really gather 2 of every lliving creature? We are meant to believe he did, right? Think of the logistics involved with that. Did Noah go from continant to continant, gathering 2 of everything in the world? Did he make it to Antartica? What about Greenland, Iceland, New Zealand, Austraila, New Hamshire, Norway, every island in all the oceans, England, Wales, etc.? After Gathering them, did he get them all back to where they came from? Or is there a simpler explaination? I am not a historian, so I'll leave that to them, but the point still stands.

Ignorance on stilts, again. Do you ever get embarrassed at your own lack of bibical knowledge when you try to deny the truth of scripture? Apparently not. You are looking at scripture like a child. Please, grow up, spiritually. Your 'point' is naive. First, this was in the very earliest part of earth existence. God supervised the entire operation. It had never rained on earth before this period. Water came from mists and springs, not the clouds. Noah had no idea what a boat (ark) was (they didn't exist) and no one had ever seen rain. Noah trusted God. He built the ark and God provided for all the living things to come aboard, not Noah. Noah was God's instrument, just as we are , today, when we choose to serve Him, as Noah did. Again, you try to place all kinds of human restrictions on an omnipotent God, which is why you can't understand the meaning of scripture. God is not bound - then or now - by what limits mankind. Space and time do not exist as barriers for God...He created them.

Did Moses ever live? Show me one shred of evidence outside the Bible. He wandered the desert for 40 years, right? Show me some artifacts from that wandering. Surely we could find some, we're talking about thousands of people walking around the desert. I'm sure that they left a little bit behind them somewhere.

You really make a good atheist. You have all the talking points down, pat. Moses lived over three thousand years ago. Yet you demand some kind of proof that he existed? Why? The Jews 40 years in the desert - a punishment from God - also occured over 3,000 years ago. The sands cover up things in hours. Yet you want physical proof from over 3,000 years ago? Whta makes you think anything would exist from that time the Jews spend on the desert sands? To demand some kind of concrete 'proof' of that event is silly, no more than a lot of historical figures lives can be proved today with any validity. Most of what we know from very ancient history is based on writings of the time, which we can not ever 'prove' are valid. Christianity is based on faith. It always has been. If Moses, Jesus and everything in scripture were easily proven - most of the world would be Christian. That would not be faith, which is what God wants. Obviously, He doesn't receive much of it from you. Your loss, not His.

You keep saying that you feel sorry for me. Don't. I know in my heart that God does in fact exist. I know in my heart that in fact Jesus does exist. I also know in my heart that the Bible is, at best man's attempt to speak for God. Even in the Bible it says that we can not know God. How can you tell me that the Bible, is the Word of God, if we can not know Him, His plans, or His ideas? You, along with millions of others, have been corrupted by the Bible. You, my friend, are one of the flock that has been decieved. Have you ever thought that just maybe the Bible was inspire by Satan? Think about it for a split second before you have a massive brain hemorage. Even the Good Book tells you that the Devil is the most beautiful thing in creation. He is more attractive to man than anything man has ever encountered. What better way to decieve man than with the supposed Word of God? Now, I'm not saying that the Bible is Satan's work. But I am saying that if man changed one word, or exaggerated one story, it is now as useless as a football bat. And what better target to corrupt man, that with God's own word?

I was mistaken. You are beyond sad, you are downright tragic in your assumptions and your mocking of God's Word. You know absolutely nothing of the God and Jesus you so piously claim to 'believe in your heart' except from what the bible has told us...you included. That's what you totally fail to grasp here. You spit at scripture then claim to believe what scripture tells you in a few cases (God exists, Jesus is Savior). That's absurd. If most of the bible is the corrupted, lying words of evil men, as you seem to believe, maybe even from Satan, that clever rascal, then how can you accept one word of it? It's either a total fabrication or it's the inspired Word of God. Pick one - but don't pretend to be some kind of Christian 'believer' when the only source you have for knowing anything about God in the first place was - and is - the bible...and you deny the bible's claims to absolute truth. You are much confused and bibically illiterate, to boot. As I said: tragic.

Just think about it, for longer than the time it takes you to get all huffy and puffy. Actually let this thought wander around in you head, pray about it, and listen to your heart. Jesus lives in your heart, right? Well, maybe he has some thoughts for you. Who knows?

Nice try at condescension but it ignores the fact that most of what you are trying to justify here regarding your rejection of the bible is identical to that of every atheist I've every dealt with. Exactly the same. The only reason I've bothered to exchage messages with you is because you keep claiming to 'believe' in God and Christ as Savior. I attributted most of your sometimes incomprehensible statements to bibical ignorance. There is a lot of that going around. However, at this point I have come to other conclusions. You are either attempting to reject scripture because it sets moral absolutes that you don't like or want to be held to (very common) and/or you are really an atheist, playing games here. I suspect that you are more likely just a young guy that wants to cling to his 'belief' in God and Jesus and thinks he can do so while rejecting the only real source for his original belief to begin with. No bible - no rules - no morality - no pesky 'right and wrong' to deal with. Do as you please. God loves everybody, yada, yada, yada. Oh, you can still claim to 'believe' in God and His Son, Jesus, then disobey Him at will because, you see, the bible is a lie. Maybe even from SATAN! Yeah, right. Nice try at kidding yourself but it fails utterly with me, friend.

Go do as you please. I'm not your father or a minister and I won't keep this pointless exchange of messages going as I understand where you right now and I have made my case. Of course, I made it under the assumption I was corresponding with a Christian, not someone who just gives God lip-service and then acts and lives as an atheist. I don't bother to argue with atheists because, like you, they reject the bible out of hand, and so, since my faith and all of Christianity is based on the bible, I have nowhere to go, figuratively or literally, with the atheist. Whatever is in your heart, at this point, I've arrived at the same juncture with you. As you reject the bible as the infallible Word of God, written by men but inspired by God, we no longer have anything to talk about, other than you attempting to justify your rather atheist-like 'belief'. I've read about enough of that so I now part company with you on this overlong thread and wish you, not only well, but that you'll someday realize the folly of your non-belief and rejection of God's Word and come back to real, bible-based faith in the God who loved you enough to send His son to die for you....just as we learned from the bible.

[bigwhitecobra]

You are wrong as you can be. As I've stated to you before: the very knowledge of God and Jesus you claim to believe in came to you from the bible. Whether you first heard about God and Jesus from your parents, a minister, a friend or a tract or book, all knowlege we have today of God and Christ came from the bible. You cannnot deny this with any credibility.

Yes, the God of Gods that we know of today did come from the Bible. But what of before that? Where did those Gods come from? How did man know that there was a Great Creator? Look at the sky, point in the air and tell me where it ends. Tell me how it came to be. ALL mankind knows that there is a God of some sort. Some believe differently than others. Whether you worship Budda, Allah, Zues, whomever, the point stands that through out history, man knew that someone, or something created this Earth. That in and of itself is the basis of my belief.

Same faulty premise I shot down long before with the fact that God is omnipotent - all powerful - and did not allow mortal men to lie about him and call it 'God's Word'. You apparently assume an 'absent God' that simply watches mankind from heaven, like we would watch ants in an ant farm, and that He has no hand in our lives at all. Not so. His Word is true because He kept it that way. Your mistrust of the God you claim to believe in is rather sad.

God may be omnipotent, but He gave man free will. Believing that men are incapable of Changing the word of God is absurd, and you show your ignorance. King James himself changed the Bible in his version. In his translation, some words could not be translated, so in all his wisdom, he substitued what he thought should fit. Did God willfully allow this to happen, who knows. Maybe it is as God wanted it to be, but the word of God has been molested over the years to fit with what the writers felt it should mean. Get over it. Deal with it, and move along.

Leviticus 20, verse 13: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Show me where is says a woman shouldn't lie with another woman.

The New Testament instructs believers to be pure and sexually undefiled and it mentions homosexuality as a sin. That makes the case against lesbianism quite clearly. Jesus didn't mention drug use, either, but the admonition against allowing anything to 'master you' alludes to all forms of addiction, including drugs. Breaking the law is also forbidden unless that law goes against bibical instruction. Wake up and actually read and try to understand the bible, it's context and it's purpose. It isn't about 'controlling' you, it's about God's love for you and how to live a fruitful, happy life. How tragic that you adopt the atheist view of God's Word and yet still prattle on about being a 'Christian'.

Again, show me. Point to it. Post the chapter and verse. I really want to read it.

"Great Teacher"? What an insult to the Son of God! Jesus was hardly written about by the Romans and many people convicted of crimes against the state were crucified in that period of history, not only Jesus. It was fairly common. Jesus was either who He said He was - God incarnate - or a total fraud and liar and certainly not someone to be worshipped. Make a choice - but can the 'great teacher' nonsense that insults His divinity.

So the Disciples were insulting Him too then? Did they not call Him the Great Teacher? Careful, your ignorance is showing.

Ignorance on stilts, again. Do you ever get embarrassed at your own lack of bibical knowledge when you try to deny the truth of scripture? Apparently not. You are looking at scripture like a child. Please, grow up, spiritually. Your 'point' is naive. First, this was in the very earliest part of earth existence. God supervised the entire operation. It had never rained on earth before this period. Water came from mists and springs, not the clouds. Noah had no idea what a boat (ark) was (they didn't exist) and no one had ever seen rain. Noah trusted God. He built the ark and God provided for all the living things to come aboard, not Noah. Noah was God's instrument, just as we are , today, when we choose to serve Him, as Noah did. Again, you try to place all kinds of human restrictions on an omnipotent God, which is why you can't understand the meaning of scripture. God is not bound - then or now - by what limits mankind. Space and time do not exist as barriers for God...He created them

I'm going to pretend I didn't read this, just so that you will re-read that part in the Bible, and see what it says about the great flood. I'm begining to think that you just like to argue, and that you really just don't want to admit that I just might have a point.

Moses lived at the same time as Ramesis(sp?), right? Well, we've seen the evidence of him having ran around the Earth. We've seen the evidence that his civilization was in the desert. Even after thousands of years. Now the Egyptians didn't keep records of thier faults, so I don't expect to hear or see anything from them that Moses and the Jews escaped from Egypt. However, there is no record of the Egyptians ever having Jews as slaves, other than the Bible, of course. Ignorance. it's really a shame that you are so narrow minded that you aren't capable of rational thought, or logical thought, rather. We learn more when we ask questions, they may be questions we can't answer, but we still learn from them. It's mind numbing that you are that self diluged(sp?), that you can't see the world before you. Calling me an atheist is not only the single most incoherant thought in the history of man, but it is just plain silly.

Nice try at condescension but it ignores the fact that most of what you are trying to justify here regarding your rejection of the bible is identical to that of every atheist I've every dealt with. Exactly the same. The only reason I've bothered to exchage messages with you is because you keep claiming to 'believe' in God and Christ as Savior. I attributted most of your sometimes incomprehensible statements to bibical ignorance. There is a lot of that going around. However, at this point I have come to other conclusions. You are either attempting to reject scripture because it sets moral absolutes that you don't like or want to be held to (very common) and/or you are really an atheist, playing games here. I suspect that you are more likely just a young guy that wants to cling to his 'belief' in God and Jesus and thinks he can do so while rejecting the only real source for his original belief to begin with. No bible - no rules - no morality - no pesky 'right and wrong' to deal with. Do as you please. God loves everybody, yada, yada, yada. Oh, you can still claim to 'believe' in God and His Son, Jesus, then disobey Him at will because, you see, the bible is a lie. Maybe even from SATAN! Yeah, right. Nice try at kidding yourself but it fails utterly with me, friend.

Again, you have got to take the blinders off sometime. I am not calling the Bible the work of the devil. I am trying to understand more about God. I am trying look at all the "evidence", if you will, and decide for myself what is and what isn't. My statement concerning the Bible being the work of the devil, was more of a statement to make you think, rather than accept. I know that of all people to have written the Bible, Satan is the least likely "person". I use that term loosely.

You are undoubtably the most hard headed person I have ever come across. I am willing to bet that you are Catholic. It's just a guess, but are you? There is no reason to argue with you anymore. I have alot to learn aout scripture, I'll admit. You have absolutly no concept of free thinking. You must be the type of person that takes everything at face value. I may not believe the Bible to be what it, and you, claim it to be, but if by divine intervention, or my own recognisince(sp?) I find the answers to my questions, and it brings me closer to God, then isn't that worth my time?

I am not concerned whether or not I am a "Christian" by your present deffinition of that word. I am concerned with what my relationship with God is, and no one can tell me how to worship Him, not even the Pope. Until God speaks to me and tells me in His human voice that I am 180 degrees out, I will continue believing what I feel I am supposed to believe.

You twist everything I say, making yourself feel like I am denouncing everything you believe in. This is far from the case. Careful that you do not judge what you don't understand. I can understand you questioning my methods, or questions, even my comments, but you don't have the right to call me something I am not.

I wish you well on your journy through life. May you be right and I be damned, for your sake. Take care. Later.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by bigwhitecobra :

Yes, the God of Gods that we know of today did come from the Bible. But what of before that? Where did those Gods come from? How did man know that there was a Great Creator? Look at the sky, point in the air and tell me where it ends. Tell me how it came to be.

The bible tells us 'how it all came to be' in the first few pages of the Book of Genesis. You simply refuse to accept it. Your choice.

ALL mankind knows that there is a God of some sort. Some believe differently than others. Whether you worship Budda, Allah, Zues, whomever, the point stands that through out history, man knew that someone, or something created this Earth. That in and of itself is the basis of my belief.

If you didn't have the bible, that vague type of 'belief' would be sufficient, as it was for mankind for a very long time and still is for the very few who may not have ever heard of God, Jesus or seen, much less read, a bible. You and the rest of the civilized world have had the scriptures for a long time so there is no excuse. You simply deny God's Word as being, well, God's Word. Again: your choice.

God may be omnipotent, but He gave man free will. Believing that men are incapable of Changing the word of God is absurd, and you show your ignorance. King James himself changed the Bible in his version. In his translation, some words could not be translated, so in all his wisdom, he substitued what he thought should fit. Did God willfully allow this to happen, who knows. Maybe it is as God wanted it to be, but the word of God has been molested over the years to fit with what the writers felt it should mean. Get over it. Deal with it, and move along.

You've made the old atheist claims against the validity of the bible based on a total lack of knowledge, as your many sometimes ridiculous 'examples' have clearly shown to anyone reading this thread. The Word is still accurate and true. Nothing of consequence in the bible was ever changed due to translations, as atheists always try to claim, with no proof. Minor words changed in translations that do not affect meaning don't alter the truth of scripture, whether you like it or not. Deal with that and stop looking for loopholes to ignore what you don't want to face - the turth of the bible, including it's moral absolutes.

Show me where is says a woman shouldn't lie with another woman

Again, show me. Point to it. Post the chapter and verse. I really want to read it.

Your bibical ignorance undercuts your vain attempts at cleverness and sarcasm. Wake up! If homosexuality is forbidden between men, according to scripture, why would it be O.K. for women? That is illogical. Jesus (and the Apostles, later) admonished against allowing ANYTHING to 'master you'. That includes sex, money-love, power, drugs, booze, etc. Get it? Stop pretending that f scripture doesn't refer specifically to some behaviour or substance, it's O.K. That's playing games with God's Word. I see this kind of game played by two kinds of people: atheists and those who claim to 'believe' but want to excuse anything they want to do in life as O.K. because it isn't mentioned by name in the bible. That kind of nonsense may impress someone else but not me and much more importantly, not God.

So the Disciples were insulting Him too then? Did they not call Him the Great Teacher? Careful, your ignorance is showing.

No, yours is, as usual. You are way over your head here and you know it. Your bibical knowledge and lack of understanding is quite clear.

The disciples did not all immediately believe that Jesus was truly the Messiah or that He would die for the world's sins, then rise, alive again, after three days. Remember 'doubting Thomas'? He certainly thought that Jesus was dead and buried and had not risen until he saw the nail-holes in Jesus' hands. Judas betrayed Jesus so he obviously never thought Jesus was who He said He was (the Son of God). While many called Jesus 'teacher' (Rabbi) the disciples - before and after the resurrection - called Jesus 'teacher' but they also called Him 'Lord' and worshiped him, not as a mere 'teacher' but as the Son of God, which He was. To say Jesus was just a 'great teacher', which was your inference, insults His power.

I'm going to pretend I didn't read this, just so that you will re-read that part in the Bible, and see what it says about the great flood. I'm begining to think that you just like to argue, and that you really just don't want to admit that I just might have a point.

I've read the bible many times and you really have no 'point' except that of one who seeks to put human limits on what God did with Noah and many others in the ancient world. That's your mistake and you can't see it (or won't). You sit there, like many others today, all smug in your 'scientific' knowledge, thinking that you have it all figured out while God laughs at your 'knowledge' that assumes anything Noah did had to be limited to what a mortal man could accomplish, even though God clearly directed Noah every step of the way preceeding the flood. The Old Testament is a history of God's working with mankind and you still want to pretend that if a mere man couldn't do something, it never happened. How shallow. How predictable. By the way, there is good physical evidence of a great flood in ancient times but naturally the secular scientific community dismisses it. That's why we do not rely on modern human conclusions regarding ancient events. Most scientists want to refute the bible and some religious zealots try to make any possible evidence found 'prove' what it often cannot, due to age and inconclusive data. I don't need some scrap of paarchment or some dubious ancient relic to secure my faith. No one should.

I don't 'like to argue', especially about the bible and Christianity, but I have to defend it and try to correct lies and vast distortions and misunderstands - as you put forth here - when I see them. To ignore your claims and often ridiculous assertations would be remiss of me when I know better. I have no illusions that anything I post will change your opinion. It never does with people who have made up their mind and rejected the bible as the Word of God. That's why I would really like to end this exchange but you won't let me as you keep posting more silly claims and playing atheist 'gotcha! games with scripture. I wish you would knock it off. I do have other sites I like to post on.

Moses lived at the same time as Ramesis(sp?), right? Well, we've seen the evidence of him having ran around the Earth. We've seen the evidence that his civilization was in the desert. Even after thousands of years. Now the Egyptians didn't keep records of thier faults, so I don't expect to hear or see anything from them that Moses and the Jews escaped from Egypt. However, there is no record of the Egyptians ever having Jews as slaves, other than the Bible, of course. Ignorance. it's really a shame that you are so narrow minded that you aren't capable of rational thought, or logical thought, rather. We learn more when we ask questions, they may be questions we can't answer, but we still learn from them. It's mind numbing that you are that self diluged(sp?), that you can't see the world before you. Calling me an atheist is not only the single most incoherant thought in the history of man, but it is just plain silly.

Your 'questions' are those that every atheist 'asks' and they are meant to refute the bible - but they do not, especially when the whole of Christianity is based on faith, not some fossil or relic that would really prove nothing. If I could prove Moses lived, you would then say, "O.K., but did he do what it says in the bible? Prove that"! You see, there is really no end to the 'questions' when you don't want any answers you don't like. As for calling you an atheist: I say that only because you make the exact same arguments - word for word - that atheists make. I see God's presence in the world around me as well as in my heart. Obviously you do not. Calling someone who mimics atheist talking points verbatim, as you do, has no reason to resent being called an atheist.

Again, you have got to take the blinders off sometime. I am not calling the Bible the work of the devil. I am trying to understand more about God. I am trying look at all the "evidence", if you will, and decide for myself what is and what isn't. My statement concerning the Bible being the work of the devil, was more of a statement to make you think, rather than accept. I know that of all people to have written the Bible, Satan is the least likely "person". I use that term loosely.

I'm so relieved.

You are undoubtably the most hard headed person I have ever come across.

No, I'm simply stedfast in my faith, have years of bible study to draw on and know what I believe and why. Few people do. I also have had many debates - on the internet and in person - with atheists so I've heard and seen it all before. You posted nothing that was new to me.

I am willing to bet that you are Catholic. It's just a guess, but are you?

No. I'm a Protestant. Fundamentalist Christian variety.

There is no reason to argue with you anymore. I have alot to learn aout scripture, I'll admit. You have absolutly no concept of free thinking. You must be the type of person that takes everything at face value. I may not believe the Bible to be what it, and you, claim it to be, but if by divine intervention, or my own recognisince(sp?) I find the answers to my questions, and it brings me closer to God, then isn't that worth my time?

Ah, a Free Thinker. I once was just like you and at 17, although I believed in God as Creator and Jesus as Savior, I started to doubt the bible. All those Old Testament stories. the harsh commands. The wars, the killing, the weird rules, the mysteries of the Book of Revelation. What is true and what isn't? Well, I re-read the bible (King James version then, NIV now) carefully and with an open heart, not 'looking for loopholes'. I prayed for guidance. I worked at it, a little at a time. Frankly, it took me a long time to reconcile everything and I don't - to this day - pretend to understand every single thing in scripture or about God but the biggest awakening I had was when I finally understood that God is truly omnipotent and as He created the universe, the earth and man, to doubt that He can do anything He chooses to do with it - and us - is silly. There are many good books on bible study that directly answer most of the usual 'how come..." questions on the bible. Any good Christian bookstore has them and I suggest you spend more time reading and learning than debating the bible on the internet. That would be much more productive in your 'search for truth'.

I am not concerned whether or not I am a "Christian" by your present deffinition of that word. I am concerned with what my relationship with God is, and no one can tell me how to worship Him, not even the Pope. Until God speaks to me and tells me in His human voice that I am 180 degrees out, I will continue believing what I feel I am supposed to believe.

Oh dear. I could quote scripture that addresses what happens when a man tries to decide how to worship God on his own, absent what God tells us in the bible, but you don't accept the bible so, you see, we have nowhere to go.

You twist everything I say, making yourself feel like I am denouncing everything you believe in. This is far from the case. Careful that you do not judge what you don't understand. I can understand you questioning my methods, or questions, even my comments, but you don't have the right to call me something I am not.

I wish you well on your journy through life. May you be right and I be damned, for your sake. Take care. Later.

I only call you what you appear to be, based on your own words. I am glad to know that you are not an atheist but I fear that your resistance to the truth of the bible as God's Word will lead you into becoming one some fine day. It isn't hard to do these days. I pray that I'm wrong. Really. I exchanged messages with you, not to win an argument or antagonize you but to show you the folly of dismissing the Word of God, without which your 'faith' is very likely to crumble sooner rather than later. I do not want to see anyone 'damned'. Neither does God, which he why he gave us both Jesus and the bible. I pray that you decide not to ignore or dismiss it as you grow in your Christian walk. If I have been at all offensive here, I apologize. It's my passion that sometimes overrules my better judgement and it's all too easy to be sarcastic on the internet. I meant well and wanted to instruct, correct and maybe add some bibical knowledge to your understanding of scripture and God's plan for our lives. I tried.

I wish you well too and if you must have a 'last word', which is fine with me, please don't make it one that forces me to respond because we'll never end this exchange that way and I think we're both weary of each other by now.

[Crazy Horse GT]

im not getting into this thing here, all i know is, the only way to heaven is by accepting jesus christ, the LORD.

[bigwhitecobra]

I'm not sure where to start, but I promiss to keep it short. As a matter of faith, it's hard for me to accept a book that if another alien race were to read, would sound more like a fairy tale than truth. I am not calling the Bible a fairy tale, but I am comparing it to one. The basic story of the Bible I believe, and accept. The way to God is through His son Jesus. Ok. I can live with that. I accept that as truth. Is smoking pot a sin? Some say yes, some say no. Personally, I don't care. I don't smoke it, so it doesn't affect me. Some say that smoking a cigerette is a sin, that whole treat your body as a temple thing. I think they're full of it. Obey the laws of the land. Does that mean that if I speed on the street, technically I am indangering my enternal salvation? Doubt it, but whatever. When the Bible ceases to sound a bit loopy to me, which may come with age(read: the closer I get to death) I'll fully accept it as Truth.

There is a God. He isnt the angry, vengeful God everyone makes Him out to be. He loves us.

Love Him back. That's all that He wants. Love Him back.

I have no reason to feel weary of you. I might not bring up the subject of religion around you in person, only to save both of us a whole bunch of time better spent on countless other things. Don't hessitate to pick on me or razz me for whatever. I don't mind. I too was getting a little frustrated cause I couldn't get what I wanted to say out right. The other crap was just that, crap.I think that both of us were trying to get the upper hand in a battle of wits. Both of us brought a shotgun to this knife fight. It was bound to get a little ugly. Just enough for the other to know that we each believe basically the same thing. Basically.

Anyway, it's late and I have school, work, and drag strip tomorrow. Time for me to hit the hay. Later.

[b055]

my head hurts