Money VS 11sec ET

[67GTACoupe]

Sup all,

I have been thinking about getting a newer mustang for some more some modern comforts (AC,Stero,Nice Ride) and i was wondering how much money and what kinda mods would i need to take a 95 GT into the Low 11's-High 10's. I don't know alot about these new computer stuff (learned everything from 60's Muscle) and i need some help, also to get a 95 GT into those ET's could i keep it smog legal? Any info Helpfull

Thanks

Steven

PS how much money would these mods cost im 17 and kinda on a budget

[mean81GT]

depending on your budget, incon turbo's can get you there. i have read articles of people bolting up their 12 psi kit to a stock 5.0 and running 11's on slicks, and pump gas.

[BowTie Eater 5 Liter]

oes incon still make a twin turbo kit for the 5.0? i was told that they stopped making them???

[NO SLO PK]

Two words: ATI Procharger

[91GTturbo]

A procharger would get you there, but it would require a change in cam, heads (maybe), intake, injectors, gear, etc.

Single turbo cars have run high 10's with the stock heads, intake, and cam, although they have been ported. The fuel system was upgraded and a turbo car requires alot less gear.

If you wanted to do it with forced induction, a turbo would get you there alot easier than a supercharger. Meanwhile, keeping the stock cam, thus improving your chances of passing emissions. If you compared the costs of the two, the turbo kit cost a little more, but you get alot more in the kit than if you just bought a supercharger. Still it's going to cost you a minimum of $5000 going forced, unless you can find a good used kit somewhere or buid your own turbo setup.

The cheapest way to reach your goal would be nitrous, a good set of heads, cam, intake, fuel system upgrades, and a gear could get you there for around $3000.

All directions are also going to require a little suspension and transmission upgrades, which I haven't added in.

Good luck.

[NO SLO PK]

Originally posted by 91GTturbo
A procharger would get you there, but it would require a change in cam, heads (maybe), intake, injectors, gear, etc.

No, no, no. There was an MM&FF tech article in the early 90's about the 17/14 Procharger kit and how it got their basicly stock project car in the 11s. It did not require a cam, heads, injectors, or intake. They used slicks and a 3.73 gear, however.

I won't argue that a Turbo has a lot of benefits. But there are always going to be tradeoffs on both sides of the fence. Is the Incon kit smog legal? I know the Procharger is.

[91GTturbo]

Originally posted by NO SLO PK


No, no, no. There was an MM&FF tech article in the early 90's about the 17/14 Procharger kit and how it got their basicly stock project car in the 11s. It did not require a cam, heads, injectors, or intake. They used slicks and a 3.73 gear, however.

I won't argue that a Turbo has a lot of benefits. But there are always going to be tradeoffs on both sides of the fence. Is the Incon kit smog legal? I know the Procharger is.

Don't believe everything you read in magazines, who knows what hidden things that just happen to have left out of their article. They sure didn't get a blown car in the 11's with stock 19 lb injectors, I can assure you of that. Plus, he said low 11's - high 10's. Just a procharger isn't going to accomplish that feat. He will need heads, cam, etc. to go along with it. Incon is out of business I believe, but there are several more companies besides Incon that make turbo kits, like Turbo Technology & Cartech. Both make smog legal kits. Plus, unless your going to be running mid 10's or lower, the stock cam is unbeatable for a turbo car. Thus keeping driveability and making it alot easier to pass emissions. Sorry, you can't go that fast on the stock cam with a supercharger.

[67GTACoupe]

Sup all,

Thanks for the info, i do want to go forced induction but i don't really want to be having to fill a bottle up all the time i was thinking about going supercharger because i have not heard alot of good things about turbos (i think mostly myths coming from old racers), but i was thinking about going with a procharger or vortech, though i was wondering if i could get away with a blown stroker like a 331? could i use the stock cam with this or maybe a mildly modified one? but going back to a turbo, couldn't i run a boost controller and then just turn the boost down when i go to smog it? what kinda suspension and drive train upgrades would i need? could i fit a 9" in the rearend? Any info helpfull

Thanks

STeven

[NO SLO PK]

Originally posted by 91GTturbo


Don't believe everything you read in magazines, who knows what hidden things that just happen to have left out of their article. They sure didn't get a blown car in the 11's with stock 19 lb injectors, I can assure you of that. Plus, he said low 11's - high 10's. Just a procharger isn't going to accomplish that feat.

Well, MM&FF was realistic with the information they provided. They had teething problems at the outset. They did not get the car into the 11s on the first try. The 2-row intercooler was insufficient and detonation was an issue. On the second or third pass, the stock clutch got smoked. In the next issue, the they installed a 3-row intercooler and clutch. That's where they nailed a string of 11s. Yes they did.

As for the stock 19 lb. injectors in the project car, they were at an outrageous amount of pressure and maxxed out...I did the math to verify. The BSFC had to have been pretty low...too low for comfort if you ask me...but they did run the number.

I've been modifying cars for 18 years, and I generally don't believe anything manufacturers or magazines claim regardless if they're for blower kits OR turbo kits. But in my general experience with the Procharger, MM&FF was not far from the truth.

The underlying issue, and I think you'll agree, is that you can't bolt on a kit and expect to run the number. Tuning must be performed. The infrastructure must be evaluated. Can the short block hold up? Will the radiator be adequate? Is the ignition up to the task? Will the stock clutch hold ? How about hardened axles? A 6-point bar, a scattershield, a driveshaft loop...all needed to pass tech? How about strengthening the torque boxes, or installing subframes? Are the basic skills even there to pilot a car into the 10s or 11s?

I have a hard time believing that anyone can install a turbo kit on a 5.0 and expect to run low 11s without needing additional parts. If what you're saying is true then I bought the wrong kit.

[91GTturbo]

Originally posted by 67GTACoupe
Sup all,

Thanks for the info, i do want to go forced induction but i don't really want to be having to fill a bottle up all the time i was thinking about going supercharger because i have not heard alot of good things about turbos (i think mostly myths coming from old racers), but i was thinking about going with a procharger or vortech, though i was wondering if i could get away with a blown stroker like a 331? could i use the stock cam with this or maybe a mildly modified one? but going back to a turbo, couldn't i run a boost controller and then just turn the boost down when i go to smog it? what kinda suspension and drive train upgrades would i need? could i fit a 9" in the rearend? Any info helpfull

Thanks

STeven

If your going to go through the effort to build a 331, I would definately have a custom cam made. Forget the stock one for that. You can definately and would want to run a boost controller. On pump gas you can run low boost and with a little race gas it can get scary. As far as suspension for a turbo setup, the great thing is they don't leave all that hard. At least not like a nitrous or supercharged car would leave. A 9" would fit, but the stock 8.8 will work just fine. I would add better axles, some new springs and maybe something like southsides. It's not hard to get a turbo car to hook, at least not with my experience. I would run some type of automatic transmission, unless your just dead set on a manual. With the auto you want loose any boost between shifts like you would with a manual. A turbo dosen't like alot of gear either, so you want be turning alot of rpm's while out cruising around. A 3.27 would be the most I would run on a turbo/331 combination. A supercharger needs rpm's to make boost, thus they need more gear.

Both have advantages and disadvantages, do some research into both before making your decision. Try checking www.turbomustangs.com, they have links to alot of good information.

I will say this, the newer 2V & 4V motors respond alot better to boost than the older 302's. One of the latest editions of MM&FF has one of our members with a 99 GT I believe. His car has a turbo kit, better fuel system, better transmission, no safety equipment and I believe stock suspension. The stock block hasn't been touched and the heads haven't been off of it. It ran 10.90's on 12 lbs of boost on slicks.

[Five0]

Tony gonyon at hp performance in middleburg florida built a turbo car for his girlfriend that has ran a 10.85 @125.8 on slicks.

The car is an 85 or 86 and has a e303 cam, gt-40 iron heads, 3.55 gears, and an aod. Not including safty equiptment and exhaust that is it.

The car went low low 11's on the stock heads.

Here is a video of the car running an 11.04 second pass.


BTW: All this was done on pump gas.

O-yea, you could be sitting next to the car with it running and you would swear it was stock untill you see it run.

[91GTturbo]

Originally posted by NO SLO PK


Well, MM&FF was realistic with the information they provided. They had teething problems at the outset. They did not get the car into the 11s on the first try. The 2-row intercooler was insufficient and detonation was an issue. On the second or third pass, the stock clutch got smoked. In the next issue, the they installed a 3-row intercooler and clutch. That's where they nailed a string of 11s. Yes they did.

As for the stock 19 lb. injectors in the project car, they were at an outrageous amount of pressure and maxxed out...I did the math to verify. The BSFC had to have been pretty low...too low for comfort if you ask me...but they did run the number.

I've been modifying cars for 18 years, and I generally don't believe anything manufacturers or magazines claim regardless if they're for blower kits OR turbo kits. But in my general experience with the Procharger, MM&FF was not far from the truth.

The underlying issue, and I think you'll agree, is that you can't bolt on a kit and expect to run the number. Tuning must be performed. The infrastructure must be evaluated. Can the short block hold up? Will the radiator be adequate? Is the ignition up to the task? Will the stock clutch hold ? How about hardened axles? A 6-point bar, a scattershield, a driveshaft loop...all needed to pass tech? How about strengthening the torque boxes, or installing subframes? Are the basic skills even there to pilot a car into the 10s or 11s?

I have a hard time believing that anyone can install a turbo kit on a 5.0 and expect to run low 11s without needing additional parts. If what you're saying is true then I bought the wrong kit.

I don't doubt MM&FF got their car into the 11's, but I still find it very hard to believe it was with the stock injectors. Too bad you can't find the article so we could see exactly what it said. I've seen the duty cycle ratings on the different injectors and it takes alot more injector to make the same power going forced induction that it does NA. I've seen a couple of cars in my day run high 11's NA with 19 lb injectors, but boy were they leaning out on the big end. No way would I try that, even on a bet with a blown car.

I do agree that tuning is the most important thing when it comes to blown cars. It dosen't matter how much you have in it, if it isn't tuned right, you can either end up with a boat anchor or a high priced, slow car.

I, nor would anyone else I hope would believe you can just add one of these kits and expect to run those kind of times. An automatic can eliminate the driver skill needed to pilot a car too those times. Yes other things like suspension, safety equipment, and a better cooling system have to be addressed before those times can be achieved.

With the ability to turn up and down the boost when I want and the fact I don't have to turn my motor to high rpm's to make boost, is just a big plus in my book. As I said both have pros and cons, it all up to the person to decide.

[Five0]

O-yea I did forget about the performer rpm intake, 75mm throttle body, mass air and injectors.

[NO SLO PK]

Originally posted by 91GTturbo


As I said both have pros and cons, it all up to the person to decide.

Agreed with that.

I have the old issue somewhere...buried in a stack I'm sure. As I recall Craig Radovich from "Radical Racing" did the install. Totally agree it is hard to believe the car went 11s with stock injectors. Again, that wouldn't have been my choice of fuel system.

As for the skills to drive a 10 or 11 second car, IMHO there are a lot of skills needed beyond those involving the tranny. For one, isn't there skill required to control a 500-600 hp car with bias ply tires or slicks at triple digit speeds? Steering input is poor and the car wants to wander all over, especially at the big end. You guys who have done this know what I mean. Again, JMHO.


FiveO: Your friend's car sounds impressive given the relatively few mods it's received.

L8r

[Five0]

Did you see the video? Look close, he is still running the ponny wheeles. Can you say sleeper!

I want one!

[Dark_5.0]

My sisters boyfriend is running 12.26 @110mph @3000ft.. With a Holley systemax intake a Steeda #19 cam Full exhaust, slicks and a 150 shot. On a 94 GT.

[67GTACoupe]

Sup all,

Thanks for the great info, what do you all think of a 331 with a turbo or supercharger? what kinda horsepower would i be making like that? what else would i need to get to my desired et? would there in any way i could pass emissions like this? thanks for all your help


STeven

[91GTturbo]

Originally posted by 67GTACoupe
Sup all,

Thanks for the great info, what do you all think of a 331 with a turbo or supercharger? what kinda horsepower would i be making like that? what else would i need to get to my desired et? would there in any way i could pass emissions like this? thanks for all your help


STeven

A decent 331 with either a turbo or supercharger will easily get you to your goal. It takes about 490 fwhp in a 3300 lb car to run 11.00's. It's hard to estimate hp on a motor when you don't know what kind of parts you intend to use or who your going to have build it. It's going to be tough to pass emissions, but I know people running in the 10's that do it. It really depends on where you are and how tough they are on testing.

[67GTACoupe]

Sup all,

Ok i was looking around and what about doing a 351W swap in then running like a small supercharger/turbo and run like 5-6psi?
would this be more worth while to do rather than do a stroker? Thanks for the info its helped alot so far


STeven

[91GTturbo]

I don't have any experience with a blown 351 setup. I think that all the turbo kit manufactures have designed their kits around the 302, not sure about the supercharger guys. A 351 takes up alot of room under the hood, to get a turbo or supercharger to fit in there as well might takes some custom work which will cost you more money. A stock 302 block is more than enough to reach your goal without strocking it.

The 99 GT I mentioned earlier than ran 10.90's and did it on 12 lbs of boost. You don't have to run and ungodly amount of boost to reach your goal, if that's where you were heading with the 351 and only 6 lbs.

I give you an example of a friends car with the same turbo kit I have, only he has a 60-1 turbo where I run a TO4. He has untouched GT40 iron heads, GT40 lower intake & box upper, 70 mm TB. He has the same injectors and mass air as me. On 10 lbs of boost he made 411 rwhp. He ran 15 lbs one time at the track and his transmission decided it didn't like the additional hp, so he hasn't gotten any new times out of it yet.

I don't want to sound like it some simple thing to just slap a turbo or supercharger and a few good parts on a mustang and be able to make the kind of hp needed to run low 11's. My friends car is running perfectly, mine isn't, that's why mine is in the shop getting new headgaskets & heads. The tune has alot to do with it.