Motor back together - strange noise????

[DZEE'S LX]

Once again, I hate it when this happens!

I finally got everything back together (see list in signature) and the long awaited desire to have everthing work properly.....but no, I have a ticking/popping noise coming from the drivers side. It is much like the ticking from a leaking header gasket, but it's doesn't really seem like a metallic noise. The sound does not have a steady rhythm, so it doesn't seem like it could be a rocker hitting the cover. I had checked the rocker to valve cover clearance and saw no contact without the gaskets. The rhythm is kind of like a sporadic ticking.

I retightened the header bolts even though none were loose (they turned 1/8- 1/2 turn) but the noise didn't change.

Also tightened the header flange-to-hpipe bolts but still no difference.

Checked all my plug wires to make sure they are not crossed.

The noise was much worse on initial fire up. I realized the dist was one tooth off when I couldn't get the timing up past about 15 ATDC. A few cuss words and one tooth over and now I am at 14 BTDC. The noise was then much better. When I plugged the SPOUT back in the engine ran better and the noise was even a little less.

What's really strange is that the noise goes away as soon as I bring it up from 750 idle. I think I can hear the same type of noise coming from the passenger side at idle but I have to listen really close.

The noise seems to be loudest when the idle surges into it's "lumpiest" zone. In other words, roughest idle - loudest noise.

Is it possible that this is common to TW heads or the E-cam? Other than this noise the engine sounds good, especially with the little lope. Haven't driven it yet - want to figure this out first.

Any advice is much appreciated.

Dan

[drudis]

Originally posted by DZEE'S LX

What's really strange is that the noise goes away as soon as I bring it up from 750 idle. I think I can hear the same type of noise coming from the passenger side at idle but I have to listen really close.

The noise seems to be loudest when the idle surges into it's "lumpiest" zone. In other words, roughest idle - loudest noise.
Dan

Sounds like roller lifter something...

At low rpm, the oil pressure is low. So you could have a roller hydraulic lifter not pumping up, and giving valve lash chatter.
Or it could be a _bad_ lifter not pumping up.
Or it could be the lash was not adjusted right in the first place.

Something in that area is my educated guess.
Does it go away (and STAY away) at 2000 rpm steady state?

[DZEE'S LX]

It's really gonna piss me off if it is a lifter. My stock ones looked fine when I took them out but I decided to put new ones (FMS) in just to be on the safe side.

I have 1.7 pedestal mount Crane Energizer rockers. They were fairly straight forward to install. They all used the same thickness shim. I tightened the mounting bolt until zero lash, and then went "about" another 1/2 turn to get to the 22 ft-lb torque. The instructions say between 1/4 and a full turn gets you the correct lifter preload. I know I double checked the torque on the bolts but now I have to start wondering.....

The noise goes away right off of idle, like above 900 or so, and it stays gone while up there. It returns as soon as the idle returns to the lowest rpm, especially while the cam does its little bounces and then it idles steady..... with the noise.

I've been searching other posts. Someone mentioned degreeing the cam. Was I supposed to do that or was it okay to go straight up at the "O" position?

Someone else mentioned a popping in the exhaust. The replies talked alot about fuel pressure. Mine is still at about 38 psi. I was planning on bumping it up to 45. Wonder if that could make a difference.

Hope I can figure this out by tomarrow.

Thanks,

Dan

[DZEE'S LX]

A buddy here at work said it took almost 10 minutes to get some of his new lifters to pump up when he did his Jeep.

I've had mine started quite a few times but have not run it that long.

Is this common for new lifters? Could this be my noise???

[drudis]

Maybe. I never heard of that, but then again this is my first roller cam for my car too. Done 7 other flattappet cams and never any trouble.

I always run a 1/2" HD drill to get the oil thru the motor pressureized, and this seems to work nice before even turning th motor over.

Maybe the lifters do have an air bubble, and need to get pumped/bled, pumped/bled, with several restarts of longer running time like you suggest.

[DRASTiK]

Lifters: Did you give the new lifters an "oil bath" before you installed them? The best thing to do is to submerge the lifter in oil and use an old pushrod to pump them up manually prior to installation. If not, then yes, it's possible that your lifter(s) just haven't pump up yet. On the other hand, if that was the case, then it would most likely be more of a rythmic ticking noise, not a sparratic (sp?) one. If the noise doesn't sound like it's breaking anything (see below), then just run it for about ten minutes or so at idle and see if it goes away.

Without hearing the noise, we can only guess at the cause. How loud is it on the loudest side? Is it REAL loud and teeth grinding, or is it more of just a tick that you can hear standing beside the car? If it's not rythmic, then it could be a plug wire isn't seated on the plug correctly and you're hearing it spark.

If you couldn't tell, the part that is confusing me is when you said "The sound does not have a steady rhythm." That statement tends to lead me away from the rockers/lifters. But hopefully that's all it is and nothing worse. As far as exhaust leaks, just start the car when it's cool, and before it has a chance to heat up, put your hands around where the headers bolt up to the heads, and around the flange. If air's coming out, you'll definately feel it. Hope this helps, keep us informed,
Dave

[DZEE'S LX]

No oil bath for the lifters. I was thinking the lifter preload was supposed to be done without being pumped up.....maybe something to do next time.

I felt for exhaust leaks but didn't notice anything. Since I am using used headers it is possible that I have a crack.

Since the noise seems to be kind of contained, like it is inside the valve cover, I still think it's more likely coming from the inside.

How loud? Wish I could give an audio. It's noticeable from all the way across the garage. Not a small "tick".

What about this "degreeing the cam". Could that be a factor? The noise is progressively better as I advance the timing.

Thanks again,
Dan

[fiveohpatrol]

i have the same rockers as you and when i first installed them they were ticking. Then i let it idle for 5-10minutes occasionally revving it to 3500-4000rpm or so, then it went mostly away.

Alot of people say that their 1.7 crane roller rockers make a slight amount of noise, so it may just be that.

You should do youself a favor and buy a stethoscope, they are VERY helpful when trying to find where a noise is coming from. This way you can touch it on the valve cover to see for sure if it's coming from there or not.


oh and by the way, I installed my cam a couple weeks ago without even thinking about degreeing it and theres no noise or problems at all.

[exgmguy]

You can use a length of tubing as a stethascope. It works perfectly for narrowing down the location of a noise.

You said you have pedestal mount TFS heads? Are they used? I ask because as far as I know Trick Flow has not produced pedestal mount heads in a while. If the heads are used, chances are that you have a bad valve guide. The cast iron guides they used in the older heads wore out very quickly and would tick at idle, but go away on the gas.

If the heads are new, I am leaning toward it being a mis-adjusted valve or noisy lifter.

[DZEE'S LX]

The heads are used. They are the older style pedestal mount heads. They do not have the original TFS guides. They have new guts and Crower dual springs. I brought them to my machine shop and they checked the guides and spring pressures (for my lift).
I'm gonna go back out and run the motor as suggested. Need to reset my computer anyway.

Then I'll take her for a spin.

Will let you all know what happens........

Thanks again,

Dan

[DZEE'S LX]

OK, took it for a drive and......the noise is still there.

Here is what I know now.

1. If I had never seen this car before and listened to the motor I'd say "that dude has a header leak". But because it is my car and I just finished installing everything I can't figure out where it is coming from. Everything is tight and has new gaskets.

2. I now know the noise is there only under acceleration. Especially at lower rpm's when feeding lots of throttle. It's a very loud ticking and has a steady "rhythm" that matches the motor speed. Can hear it even cruising on the freeway. When coasting or at steady throttle the noise dissappears. The engine sounds great on full acceleration but I can still barely hear the noise over the roar The rhythm is still kind of "sporadic at idle. I will try feel for leaks again when the motor is cold. I figure I can tape my clutch fan to the shroud to keep it from freewheeling a breeze. It's also supposed to be about 20 degrees in the morning so maybe I'll be able to see the exhaust if it is leaking somewhere. Is there any other way to check for leaks?

3. I'm not convinced that something is still not right because torque seems very low - at least compared to what I expected to gain over stock. I chose the street intake and shortie headers so I could keep decent low end, even though the e-cam is not supposed to be torquey but still it is supposed to be a good compromise. I guess I just expected the torque to be adequate but it seems barely better than stock. I tested it on a nearby gradeat about 2000rpm. I was able to slowly increase speed in fourth gear where my stock setup would just pull the hill without losing speed. Top end is much more impressive but I'm wondering if that all there is or if something is not set up right. TFS told me I should get 340 hp with this combo and the e-cam. Although I'm no expert, I just expected more. Without clutch it will bust em loose anywhere in 1st gear but I thought I should get similar action in 2nd. In 2nd it will slam my head back anytime after 3000 but it seems like it takes too long to get through the low end if you get on it down low. Maybe this is just my transformation from stock torque to mid-to-high end performance power.......

So I'm not happy yet, still have the noise and not sure if I'm getting all the ponies I should.

Any ideas?


Dan

[fiveohpatrol]

From the way you described it, it sounds almost exactly the way mine did when I first bought it and it had a cracked header.
I'm not sure of anyway to really locate the leak besides taking the header off and inspecting it.

[drudis]

Originally posted by DZEE'S LX
...I now know the noise is there only under acceleration. Especially at lower rpm's when feeding lots of throttle. It's a very loud ticking and has a steady "rhythm" that matches the motor speed.
Dan

Dude, its a header leak. Classic signs of a header gasket.
Sorry, but you gotta figure out WHERE (not what) the noise is coming from now...

[DZEE'S LX]

Just a quick note to say thanks guys!

It was the header gasket. Took the header off tonight and there it was biggern sh*t. The leak was at both of the end bolts where the gasket was thinner. I had trimmed the gasket a little in those areas to match the ports in the heads (seemed like a good idea at the time) but neglected to worry about the header bolts. The bolt holes were also slotted a bit (used headers), probably to allow bolt installation after the tubes had moved a little from expansion/cooling etc. You can see where the exhaust made it past the gasket and out past the bolt especially at cyl 5. The rest of the gasket looked evenly compressed and got good sealing. Got new gaskets and these have wider areas around the holes and ports. Should work well.

Thanks again for the tips. Drudis & Fiveohpatrol nailed this one!Also, the stethascope/heater hose trick worked amazingly well!

Dan