Motors: Mach1 vs. GT

JBeryleC · 03-31-2004, 11:12 PM

Ok folks.. I have seen some talk about how the mach1 and GT have different motors...

I thought the only difference was the heads and valvetrain
(2v sohc and 4v dohc)

Is that wrong? If so what else is different?

blue00gt · 04-01-2004, 04:12 PM

The Mach 1 engine shares almost nothing with the GT. It has an aluminum block, forged crank (5-speeds only; autos have a cast crank), different heads and valvetrain, different intake, twin blade throttle body, etc. I think it may have the same pistons as the GT, but not much else.

xxxBlakexxx · 04-01-2004, 04:56 PM

The Mach 1 engine seems to have more in common with the '05 engine than an '04 GT.

JBeryleC · 04-01-2004, 04:58 PM

Ok so.. all of that makes the mach1 more durable and the motor can handle a lot more hp than the gt motor... yeah?

Anyone know how much more it can handle?

Anyone know what the hp cutoff should be for the stock gt motor? Can it's bottom end handle 400? 500hp? 600hp?

Thanks

Bri's ride · 04-01-2004, 05:08 PM

I heard thats the stock internals in the gt are good up to 450hp at the wheels, i could be wrong. I also heard the mach 1 engines were just left over n/a cobra engines from the 01 and 02 years. Another thing I heard about the mach 1 is that people are putting slicks on basicly stock mach 1's and breaking the differential. I though the 8.8 could take way more abuse than that? whats up with that?

xxxBlakexxx · 04-01-2004, 06:17 PM

There are quite a bit of axles being broken on GTs. The combination seems to be 4.10's and slicks. Of course, there are many that have gone for dozens of even hundres of starts with that combo with no problems.

How much can a motor handle is really a loaded question. Ford tests all there motors at WOT for 300 hours straight. ANYTHING that you do to a motor adds additional stress to the engine, transmission and even suspension. I have read stories about GT motors putting down over 500 hp but I would doubt that they last very long without engine modifications.

As the engine goes up in power, there will always be different limiting factors such as fuel pumps etc... You just have to know what these things are and change them as you add power.

Keep this in mind, most nitrous experts believe that an otherwise stock GT engine can handle somewhere between 100 - 150 hp boost from Nitrous. The fuel system is usually the first limiting factor. But the motor and drive train can generally handle this boost. In reality a 150 HP boost from nitrous probably translates to about 80 - 120 rwhp depending on the system that you use. This is why the range that I stated above is so wide as nitrous systems vary and the claimed hp is different from company to company. With nitrous too you are not always putting the car under that heavy load.

How much hp can the motor handle? Depends on how much you drive, how hard you drive, and what components are upgraded. But, the car will surely have a reduced life expectancy and require over-haul sooner.

Stock GT's put out about 225 rwhp right? I think that going to about 300 rwhp is about the safe maximum but that is pretty hard to do NA without NO2. Go any higher and you need a blower which requires other mods.

Personally, you can see my mods below. My 4.10's are going on April 8th. And, I plan to add NO2 soon. I don't plan on any other mods at this time. I basically have an "if it breaks, I will fix it" attitude knowing that it is simply not cost effective to upgrade everything at once. As things break like a clutch, I will simply upgrade to a more substantial one. Same with brakes etc.. I may do something with the rearend, though, only to avoid other callateral damage.

Sorry to ramble, but I kept comming back to this post as the phone kept ringing.

JBeryleC · 04-01-2004, 06:34 PM

Well I was planning to install the 8psi Kenne Bell kit... but I dont want to jeopordize my crank, rods, bearings, pistons.. etc etc

And with all the other mods I've done and will be doing... we're talking about a final of somewhere around 420rwHP... I'm now thinking that is way too much for the stock motor to handle.

Not to mention the clutch and rear end. But those both can be easily upgraded. I'm worried about having the motor rebuilt.. I dont want that to happen, way to much $$!

I might just have to can the super charger idea

And just be happy with all the bolt-on's

Any other thoughts?

Bri's ride · 04-01-2004, 06:56 PM

Well put Blake. It's all about how you drive, the harder you drive, the more likely it is that something is going to break. Not to mention the torque a Kenne bell is going to make, that will break stuff too.

Hey JBerylC, i notived in you sig that you are planning to get 3" pipe for the cat back, any reason why. I though the stock 2.5(or whatever it is) will flow good enough till about 500+hp. It'll probably sound good with the flowmasters though. Just wondering

blue00gt · 04-01-2004, 07:02 PM

The Mach 1's still have crappy rods and pistons even though they have a forged crank, so they aren't good for much more hp than a stock GT bottom end.
IMO an entry-level type blower (smog legal, 6-8 psi) with bolt-ons is fairly safe for a stock short block in a GT as long as the tune is good. Any more boost than that and I would start thinking about beefing up the bottom end.

91LX2Bfast · 04-01-2004, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by blue00gt
.....IMO an entry-level type blower (smog legal, 6-8 psi) with bolt-ons is fairly safe for a stock short block in a GT as long as the tune is good. Any more boost than that and I would start thinking about beefing up the bottom end.

Agreed

JBeryleC · 04-01-2004, 07:19 PM

Oh ok.. cool guys. Thanks for the info!

And oh yeah.. the reason for the 3" is just for the sound

hehe

I like the deeper sound.

91LX2Bfast · 04-01-2004, 07:50 PM

2.5" will give you plenty of sound, and all the flow you'll need. Have you ever been in a street car with 1 chambers? 2 chambers are at the drone limit for most people, 1 chambers are just plain obnoxius. They drone so bad inside he car that if you ever have to drive with the top and windows, you'll have a headache in about 2 minutes. I have several friends who wanted "the baddest ass sound" and installed 1 chambers, only to spend the money to change them out in a few months.
Save your money on that 3" custom stuff and just get an aftermarket 2.5" system.

xxxBlakexxx · 04-01-2004, 08:22 PM

Hey Blue:

The entry level blower that you referred to, what kind of HP would something like that put up? (rwhp)

91LX2Bfast · 04-01-2004, 09:05 PM

It depends on a lot of factors, but if you have a good exhaust system, a realistic estimate on a 2V is about 14-15hp per # of boost. 4V's are even higher, up to 20hp+ per # of boost.

Bri's ride · 04-01-2004, 09:30 PM

And on the exaust, your not gonna get a awsome sound till you get a new mid pipe (prochamber ROCKS)
Another roots style supercharger to consider is an Allen supercharger.It'll makes a little less power but it cost less for the 6psi kit with a water-air intercooler, than a KB does without one. Just though you should know if $$ is an issue.It'll still give you really nice number. Im thinking about getting a allen because were i live it is 100 degrees plus on a regular basis so a intercooler is a must. i don't know if you can switch the pulley with the allen though.

JBeryleC · 04-01-2004, 10:19 PM

Here is the direct link to the Kenne Bell kit: (lots of info)

http://www.kennebell.net/supercharge.../gt96-03_2.htm

I'm gonna check out the Allen one, but this Kenne Bell set up is hard to beat

blue00gt · 04-02-2004, 01:29 PM

A lot of the centrifugal entry level blower kits put you at around 350rwhp. With bolt-ons you can get closer to 400 at the wheels with the same blower.

JBeryleC · 04-02-2004, 01:42 PM

Yeah.. but theres just this big part of me that wants the Kenne Bell instant boost at low rpms...

blue00gt · 04-02-2004, 02:20 PM

I know what you mean. Instant low end torque tends to make a street car more fun to drive. But I was also thinking that the centrifugal blower would help with traction a bit since the boost comes on alot slower with rpms. I already have problems with traction in 1st and 2nd.

JBeryleC · 04-02-2004, 02:26 PM

Yeah I think we all have traction problems in the first 2 gears.. haha!

03-31-2004, 11:12 PM	#1
JBeryleC Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sebastopol CA Posts: 169	Motors: Mach1 vs. GT Ok folks.. I have seen some talk about how the mach1 and GT have different motors... I thought the only difference was the heads and valvetrain (2v sohc and 4v dohc) Is that wrong? If so what else is different? __________________ Torch Red '02 GT Convertible 5 spd BBK long tubes, BBK h-pipe, MAC mufflers, K&N w/ silencer trimmed, FRPP 70mm throttle body, C&L plenum, Mobil1 synthetic fluids, FRPP aluminum drive shaft, Steeda Tri-Ax shifter, FRPP 4.10's, 18x9 & 18x10 Saleens with Dunlop SP Super Sport Race rubber, Mach1 grill (GT delete), & Mach1 bumper chin! Click here for pictures & more info! If you are in Northern California, check out North Bay Mustang Club for local meets and cruises!

04-01-2004, 04:12 PM	#2
blue00gt Mustang Addict Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 1,294	The Mach 1 engine shares almost nothing with the GT. It has an aluminum block, forged crank (5-speeds only; autos have a cast crank), different heads and valvetrain, different intake, twin blade throttle body, etc. I think it may have the same pistons as the GT, but not much else. __________________ Strike down the unroadworthy! 2000 GT Atl. Blue: '03 Cobra motor - 465rwhp/473rwtq, T-56 6-speed, full MM TA/PH & tubular K-member suspension, Saleen body, 17" Torq-Thrust II's, M/T ET Street radials, and lots more '94 Rio Red Cobra: All the bolt-ons, 3.73s

04-01-2004, 04:56 PM	#3
xxxBlakexxx Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Mountaintop, PA Posts: 634	The Mach 1 engine seems to have more in common with the '05 engine than an '04 GT. __________________ "Children should not get cancer, but they do!" Help a child with cancer at www.homeoftheirown.org My Stang: 2000 Mustang GT Vert - Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter; C&L Plenum; BBK 75 mm TB; Steeda Strut Tower Supports; Black "Deep Dish" Bullet Wheels; FRPP 4.10's; Steeda Subframes; SLP Catback & SLP Catted X-Pipe; SCT 4 Position Chip with 3 custom tunes; Steeda CAI; Venom-1000 Nitrous; Roush Stage 3 Body Kit; Bullet Suspension Package (on the way)

04-01-2004, 04:58 PM	#4
JBeryleC Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sebastopol CA Posts: 169	Ok so.. all of that makes the mach1 more durable and the motor can handle a lot more hp than the gt motor... yeah? Anyone know how much more it can handle? Anyone know what the hp cutoff should be for the stock gt motor? Can it's bottom end handle 400? 500hp? 600hp? Thanks __________________ Torch Red '02 GT Convertible 5 spd BBK long tubes, BBK h-pipe, MAC mufflers, K&N w/ silencer trimmed, FRPP 70mm throttle body, C&L plenum, Mobil1 synthetic fluids, FRPP aluminum drive shaft, Steeda Tri-Ax shifter, FRPP 4.10's, 18x9 & 18x10 Saleens with Dunlop SP Super Sport Race rubber, Mach1 grill (GT delete), & Mach1 bumper chin! Click here for pictures & more info! If you are in Northern California, check out North Bay Mustang Club for local meets and cruises!

04-01-2004, 05:08 PM	#5
Bri's ride Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 74	max gt hp I heard thats the stock internals in the gt are good up to 450hp at the wheels, i could be wrong. I also heard the mach 1 engines were just left over n/a cobra engines from the 01 and 02 years. Another thing I heard about the mach 1 is that people are putting slicks on basicly stock mach 1's and breaking the differential. I though the 8.8 could take way more abuse than that? whats up with that? __________________ 97 GT--SOLD-- Magnaflow mufflers Mac Prochamber K&N FIPK Steeda Tri Ax Nitto 555 King cobra clutch 98 Sonoma 2.2 DD

04-01-2004, 06:17 PM	#6
xxxBlakexxx Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Mountaintop, PA Posts: 634	There are quite a bit of axles being broken on GTs. The combination seems to be 4.10's and slicks. Of course, there are many that have gone for dozens of even hundres of starts with that combo with no problems. How much can a motor handle is really a loaded question. Ford tests all there motors at WOT for 300 hours straight. ANYTHING that you do to a motor adds additional stress to the engine, transmission and even suspension. I have read stories about GT motors putting down over 500 hp but I would doubt that they last very long without engine modifications. As the engine goes up in power, there will always be different limiting factors such as fuel pumps etc... You just have to know what these things are and change them as you add power. Keep this in mind, most nitrous experts believe that an otherwise stock GT engine can handle somewhere between 100 - 150 hp boost from Nitrous. The fuel system is usually the first limiting factor. But the motor and drive train can generally handle this boost. In reality a 150 HP boost from nitrous probably translates to about 80 - 120 rwhp depending on the system that you use. This is why the range that I stated above is so wide as nitrous systems vary and the claimed hp is different from company to company. With nitrous too you are not always putting the car under that heavy load. How much hp can the motor handle? Depends on how much you drive, how hard you drive, and what components are upgraded. But, the car will surely have a reduced life expectancy and require over-haul sooner. Stock GT's put out about 225 rwhp right? I think that going to about 300 rwhp is about the safe maximum but that is pretty hard to do NA without NO2. Go any higher and you need a blower which requires other mods. Personally, you can see my mods below. My 4.10's are going on April 8th. And, I plan to add NO2 soon. I don't plan on any other mods at this time. I basically have an "if it breaks, I will fix it" attitude knowing that it is simply not cost effective to upgrade everything at once. As things break like a clutch, I will simply upgrade to a more substantial one. Same with brakes etc.. I may do something with the rearend, though, only to avoid other callateral damage. Sorry to ramble, but I kept comming back to this post as the phone kept ringing. __________________ "Children should not get cancer, but they do!" Help a child with cancer at www.homeoftheirown.org My Stang: 2000 Mustang GT Vert - Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter; C&L Plenum; BBK 75 mm TB; Steeda Strut Tower Supports; Black "Deep Dish" Bullet Wheels; FRPP 4.10's; Steeda Subframes; SLP Catback & SLP Catted X-Pipe; SCT 4 Position Chip with 3 custom tunes; Steeda CAI; Venom-1000 Nitrous; Roush Stage 3 Body Kit; Bullet Suspension Package (on the way)

04-01-2004, 06:34 PM	#7
JBeryleC Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sebastopol CA Posts: 169	Well I was planning to install the 8psi Kenne Bell kit... but I dont want to jeopordize my crank, rods, bearings, pistons.. etc etc And with all the other mods I've done and will be doing... we're talking about a final of somewhere around 420rwHP... I'm now thinking that is way too much for the stock motor to handle. Not to mention the clutch and rear end. But those both can be easily upgraded. I'm worried about having the motor rebuilt.. I dont want that to happen, way to much $$! I might just have to can the super charger idea And just be happy with all the bolt-on's Any other thoughts? __________________ Torch Red '02 GT Convertible 5 spd BBK long tubes, BBK h-pipe, MAC mufflers, K&N w/ silencer trimmed, FRPP 70mm throttle body, C&L plenum, Mobil1 synthetic fluids, FRPP aluminum drive shaft, Steeda Tri-Ax shifter, FRPP 4.10's, 18x9 & 18x10 Saleens with Dunlop SP Super Sport Race rubber, Mach1 grill (GT delete), & Mach1 bumper chin! Click here for pictures & more info! If you are in Northern California, check out North Bay Mustang Club for local meets and cruises!

04-01-2004, 06:56 PM	#8
Bri's ride Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 74	Well put Blake. It's all about how you drive, the harder you drive, the more likely it is that something is going to break. Not to mention the torque a Kenne bell is going to make, that will break stuff too. Hey JBerylC, i notived in you sig that you are planning to get 3" pipe for the cat back, any reason why. I though the stock 2.5(or whatever it is) will flow good enough till about 500+hp. It'll probably sound good with the flowmasters though. Just wondering __________________ 97 GT--SOLD-- Magnaflow mufflers Mac Prochamber K&N FIPK Steeda Tri Ax Nitto 555 King cobra clutch 98 Sonoma 2.2 DD

04-01-2004, 07:02 PM	#9
blue00gt Mustang Addict Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 1,294	The Mach 1's still have crappy rods and pistons even though they have a forged crank, so they aren't good for much more hp than a stock GT bottom end. IMO an entry-level type blower (smog legal, 6-8 psi) with bolt-ons is fairly safe for a stock short block in a GT as long as the tune is good. Any more boost than that and I would start thinking about beefing up the bottom end. __________________ Strike down the unroadworthy! 2000 GT Atl. Blue: '03 Cobra motor - 465rwhp/473rwtq, T-56 6-speed, full MM TA/PH & tubular K-member suspension, Saleen body, 17" Torq-Thrust II's, M/T ET Street radials, and lots more '94 Rio Red Cobra: All the bolt-ons, 3.73s

04-01-2004, 07:19 PM	#11
JBeryleC Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sebastopol CA Posts: 169	Oh ok.. cool guys. Thanks for the info! And oh yeah.. the reason for the 3" is just for the sound hehe I like the deeper sound. __________________ Torch Red '02 GT Convertible 5 spd BBK long tubes, BBK h-pipe, MAC mufflers, K&N w/ silencer trimmed, FRPP 70mm throttle body, C&L plenum, Mobil1 synthetic fluids, FRPP aluminum drive shaft, Steeda Tri-Ax shifter, FRPP 4.10's, 18x9 & 18x10 Saleens with Dunlop SP Super Sport Race rubber, Mach1 grill (GT delete), & Mach1 bumper chin! Click here for pictures & more info! If you are in Northern California, check out North Bay Mustang Club for local meets and cruises!

04-01-2004, 07:50 PM	#12
91LX2Bfast Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Warrington, PA Posts: 694	2.5" will give you plenty of sound, and all the flow you'll need. Have you ever been in a street car with 1 chambers? 2 chambers are at the drone limit for most people, 1 chambers are just plain obnoxius. They drone so bad inside he car that if you ever have to drive with the top and windows, you'll have a headache in about 2 minutes. I have several friends who wanted "the baddest ass sound" and installed 1 chambers, only to spend the money to change them out in a few months. Save your money on that 3" custom stuff and just get an aftermarket 2.5" system.

04-01-2004, 08:22 PM	#13
xxxBlakexxx Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Mountaintop, PA Posts: 634	Hey Blue: The entry level blower that you referred to, what kind of HP would something like that put up? (rwhp) __________________ "Children should not get cancer, but they do!" Help a child with cancer at www.homeoftheirown.org My Stang: 2000 Mustang GT Vert - Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter; C&L Plenum; BBK 75 mm TB; Steeda Strut Tower Supports; Black "Deep Dish" Bullet Wheels; FRPP 4.10's; Steeda Subframes; SLP Catback & SLP Catted X-Pipe; SCT 4 Position Chip with 3 custom tunes; Steeda CAI; Venom-1000 Nitrous; Roush Stage 3 Body Kit; Bullet Suspension Package (on the way)

04-01-2004, 09:05 PM	#14
91LX2Bfast Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Warrington, PA Posts: 694	It depends on a lot of factors, but if you have a good exhaust system, a realistic estimate on a 2V is about 14-15hp per # of boost. 4V's are even higher, up to 20hp+ per # of boost.

04-01-2004, 09:30 PM	#15
Bri's ride Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 74	And on the exaust, your not gonna get a awsome sound till you get a new mid pipe (prochamber ROCKS) Another roots style supercharger to consider is an Allen supercharger.It'll makes a little less power but it cost less for the 6psi kit with a water-air intercooler, than a KB does without one. Just though you should know if $$ is an issue.It'll still give you really nice number. Im thinking about getting a allen because were i live it is 100 degrees plus on a regular basis so a intercooler is a must. i don't know if you can switch the pulley with the allen though. __________________ 97 GT--SOLD-- Magnaflow mufflers Mac Prochamber K&N FIPK Steeda Tri Ax Nitto 555 King cobra clutch 98 Sonoma 2.2 DD

04-01-2004, 10:19 PM	#16
JBeryleC Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sebastopol CA Posts: 169	Here is the direct link to the Kenne Bell kit: (lots of info) http://www.kennebell.net/supercharge.../gt96-03_2.htm I'm gonna check out the Allen one, but this Kenne Bell set up is hard to beat __________________ Torch Red '02 GT Convertible 5 spd BBK long tubes, BBK h-pipe, MAC mufflers, K&N w/ silencer trimmed, FRPP 70mm throttle body, C&L plenum, Mobil1 synthetic fluids, FRPP aluminum drive shaft, Steeda Tri-Ax shifter, FRPP 4.10's, 18x9 & 18x10 Saleens with Dunlop SP Super Sport Race rubber, Mach1 grill (GT delete), & Mach1 bumper chin! Click here for pictures & more info! If you are in Northern California, check out North Bay Mustang Club for local meets and cruises!

04-02-2004, 01:29 PM	#17
blue00gt Mustang Addict Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 1,294	A lot of the centrifugal entry level blower kits put you at around 350rwhp. With bolt-ons you can get closer to 400 at the wheels with the same blower. __________________ Strike down the unroadworthy! 2000 GT Atl. Blue: '03 Cobra motor - 465rwhp/473rwtq, T-56 6-speed, full MM TA/PH & tubular K-member suspension, Saleen body, 17" Torq-Thrust II's, M/T ET Street radials, and lots more '94 Rio Red Cobra: All the bolt-ons, 3.73s

04-02-2004, 01:42 PM	#18
JBeryleC Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sebastopol CA Posts: 169	Yeah.. but theres just this big part of me that wants the Kenne Bell instant boost at low rpms... __________________ Torch Red '02 GT Convertible 5 spd BBK long tubes, BBK h-pipe, MAC mufflers, K&N w/ silencer trimmed, FRPP 70mm throttle body, C&L plenum, Mobil1 synthetic fluids, FRPP aluminum drive shaft, Steeda Tri-Ax shifter, FRPP 4.10's, 18x9 & 18x10 Saleens with Dunlop SP Super Sport Race rubber, Mach1 grill (GT delete), & Mach1 bumper chin! Click here for pictures & more info! If you are in Northern California, check out North Bay Mustang Club for local meets and cruises!

04-02-2004, 02:20 PM	#19
blue00gt Mustang Addict Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 1,294	I know what you mean. Instant low end torque tends to make a street car more fun to drive. But I was also thinking that the centrifugal blower would help with traction a bit since the boost comes on alot slower with rpms. I already have problems with traction in 1st and 2nd. __________________ Strike down the unroadworthy! 2000 GT Atl. Blue: '03 Cobra motor - 465rwhp/473rwtq, T-56 6-speed, full MM TA/PH & tubular K-member suspension, Saleen body, 17" Torq-Thrust II's, M/T ET Street radials, and lots more '94 Rio Red Cobra: All the bolt-ons, 3.73s

04-02-2004, 02:26 PM	#20
JBeryleC Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sebastopol CA Posts: 169	Yeah I think we all have traction problems in the first 2 gears.. haha! __________________ Torch Red '02 GT Convertible 5 spd BBK long tubes, BBK h-pipe, MAC mufflers, K&N w/ silencer trimmed, FRPP 70mm throttle body, C&L plenum, Mobil1 synthetic fluids, FRPP aluminum drive shaft, Steeda Tri-Ax shifter, FRPP 4.10's, 18x9 & 18x10 Saleens with Dunlop SP Super Sport Race rubber, Mach1 grill (GT delete), & Mach1 bumper chin! Click here for pictures & more info! If you are in Northern California, check out North Bay Mustang Club for local meets and cruises!

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