RUCA compatability issue?

93notch · 08-03-2000, 02:38 PM

I'm reposting this because for some reason it posted under the date 7-07-00 when in fact it was 8-2-00.

I was just on the phone with Maximum Motorsports. I purchased a MM panhard bar (thanx for the advice guys). I told the guy at MM that i also plan on putting Hotchkis Upper and Lower Control arms on the car in the rear as well. He told me there is an issue with the RUCA and their use of urethane bushings. He said there is major binding in the rear of the car because the urethane bushings don't give and the panhard bar doesn't give either. He told me that when they do a car they leave the stock rubber in the RUCA and then when it wears out they replace it with Ford Motorsport rubber bushings. I thought this was a little wierd
since MM uses urethane bushing in their own RUCAs. I called Crazy Horse Racing and they said they've never heard of such a binding problem when combining the two. I was wondering if anyone hear has experinced/heard of this problem.
The Hotchkis kit is on backorder from Jeg's and shouldn't be here for another three weeks or so. I have time to cancel if it's going to be an issue. Thanks in advance

Skankin · 08-04-2000, 02:51 PM

Ya, I agree with MM. The stock 4 link is a crappy design... it actually binds to try and keep it laterally located. When you go to the urethane bushings, you add even more bind, plus you'll have a panhard that needs some lateral movement in order to swing through it's arc.

With the complete global west setup, they actually tell you to drill holes in the RUCA bushings to make them even softer.

You could just get lowers, and keep the uppers... or you could ditch the stock uppers, and get some parallel uppers (steeda or www.ipschassis.com ) or a torque arm... then your rear roll centre would be dictated by the panhard alone... (lower like the front). This may require stiffer rear springs...

drudis · 08-07-2000, 12:02 PM

Yes, you should not use 4 poly bushings in the rear, especially with a panhard.
Same thing with the GW lowers and a panhard. All these pieces will induce bind (when combined together). You can get snap-oversteer which is when you reach the limit of the suspension, then suddenly it binds, and the car reacts (negatively) to it.

------------------
Darius Rudis
Roadracer: Home built t-arm/panhard suspension powered by an S-trimmed motor :-)
My Mustang Page

93notch · 08-07-2000, 12:17 PM

Thanks guys, Now in light of this information... would it be better to go with the uppers and lowers with no panhard or is it better to have the panhard and no aftermarket control arms. Is it better to just replace the lowers and a panhard, just the uppers and a panhard. Is it best to just use rubber bushings in the control arms and still use the panhard bar? I did alot of research when buying this setup and didn't hear of any problems related to this in any articles or reviews i read. Thanks for warning me as to what i was abou to do wrong. Any input is greatly appreciated.
Andrew

Skankin · 08-08-2000, 12:51 PM

The panhard bar is certainly a good idea. The only way to control lateral movement with out bind is the addition of a lateral arm.

A good set of lowers is the place to start... then you can always go for a griggs torque arm, or some parallel uppers later (with proper springs).
www.wmsracing.com has some killer looking race arms. I think they'd be the best. You get weight jacking, 3 positons for the stock sway bar (which is similar to changing it's thickness), a spherical bearing on the proper end... At $336.60 US, they're not cheap. If you could get them to drop the anti-squat brackets, and the price, it'd be even better! HTTP://www.wmsracing.com/pgi-Product%20Spec?WMS-RLA79M

93notch · 08-08-2000, 01:05 PM

Thanks Skankin,
I've got the MM panhard bar and i cancelled my order on the Hothkis uppers and lowers due to the information i've gained here. I'm going to leave the stock uppers and just change the lowers. The car most likely won't see an open road coarse (maybe... but prob not) what i'm looking for is the ultimate street handling machine. I'm currently thinking about the non adjustable lowers from MM just because i understand things work best when you don't mix companies. The rest of the setup on the car is a Kenny Brown chassis kit (subs, k-member brace, strut tower brace) eibach pro-kit springs, tokico adjustables, and Hotchkis adjustable camber caster plates. i'll have it all installed when i get the lowers from wherever i decide to get them. I also have Dunlop SP 5000 225/50/16 tires. They're AMAZING in the rain. thanks for all the info guys. you really stopped me from making a BIG mistake

Skankin · 08-09-2000, 10:47 AM

Mixing products can be a bad thing (like you've found with the hotchis & panhard)... but sometimes one particular manufacturer doesn't have all the best ideas either... there are some band-aid solutions that just suck...

The MM lowers should be better than arms with urethane bushings at both ends... so they're a decent choice. The panhard has some lateral movement as it swings through it's arc (ie. as suspension is compressed), so this will produce some twisting/compression of the urethane bushing on the chassis side. They do claim to have 'special' urethane bushings, and I've never heard of any problems, so it'll probably be fine for street use.

A spherical joint on the chassis side would prevent any twisting of the torque boxes though. This is why I'd prefer the WMS, if I had the money.

I'm not sure why MM did it the other way around. Perhaps they thought the torque box was stronger than the axle mount (which may be true), but people seem to have more trouble with the tack welded torque boxes than they do with the axle attachments. If you haven't done so, I'd get someone to weld up your torques boxes just to be safe (I had mine done when I put my subframes in).

There are 4-link setups with spherical joints at both ends... mainly used by racers. This essentially eliminates any bind, but it would produce too much Noice, Vibration and Harshness for the average street driver.

drudis · 08-09-2000, 12:20 PM

WOW! Having seen HTTP://www.wmsracing.com/pgi-Product%20Spec?WMS-RLA79M
these control arms, I can say they are VERY much worth it. Sherical rod ends, AND spring perch adjustability. Griggs sellss stuff dor $500 for nearly the same features.
Personally, I would go with these arms, and a panhard.

------------------
Darius Rudis
Roadracer: Home built t-arm/panhard suspension powered by an S-trimmed motor :-)
My Mustang Page

93notch · 08-09-2000, 12:24 PM

Thanks guys, you've been really helpful. I'll go with the WMS lowers. Since this is all being bought on an "as the money comes to me" basis it may be a bit of time before i get the final peice. Thanks again.

spinemup · 08-09-2000, 12:31 PM

hey d rudis, what make panhard bar would work? a maximum motorsports one, along with thier spring kit? i like those arms and they are at a very fair price.

08-03-2000, 02:38 PM	#1
93notch Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: South Plainfield, NJ, United States Posts: 7	RUCA compatability issue? I'm reposting this because for some reason it posted under the date 7-07-00 when in fact it was 8-2-00. I was just on the phone with Maximum Motorsports. I purchased a MM panhard bar (thanx for the advice guys). I told the guy at MM that i also plan on putting Hotchkis Upper and Lower Control arms on the car in the rear as well. He told me there is an issue with the RUCA and their use of urethane bushings. He said there is major binding in the rear of the car because the urethane bushings don't give and the panhard bar doesn't give either. He told me that when they do a car they leave the stock rubber in the RUCA and then when it wears out they replace it with Ford Motorsport rubber bushings. I thought this was a little wierd since MM uses urethane bushing in their own RUCAs. I called Crazy Horse Racing and they said they've never heard of such a binding problem when combining the two. I was wondering if anyone hear has experinced/heard of this problem. The Hotchkis kit is on backorder from Jeg's and shouldn't be here for another three weeks or so. I have time to cancel if it's going to be an issue. Thanks in advance

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08-04-2000, 02:51 PM	#2
Skankin Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,349	Ya, I agree with MM. The stock 4 link is a crappy design... it actually binds to try and keep it laterally located. When you go to the urethane bushings, you add even more bind, plus you'll have a panhard that needs some lateral movement in order to swing through it's arc. With the complete global west setup, they actually tell you to drill holes in the RUCA bushings to make them even softer. You could just get lowers, and keep the uppers... or you could ditch the stock uppers, and get some parallel uppers (steeda or www.ipschassis.com ) or a torque arm... then your rear roll centre would be dictated by the panhard alone... (lower like the front). This may require stiffer rear springs...

08-07-2000, 12:02 PM	#3
drudis Moderator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Livonia, MI, USA Posts: 1,194	Yes, you should not use 4 poly bushings in the rear, especially with a panhard. Same thing with the GW lowers and a panhard. All these pieces will induce bind (when combined together). You can get snap-oversteer which is when you reach the limit of the suspension, then suddenly it binds, and the car reacts (negatively) to it. ------------------ Darius Rudis Roadracer: Home built t-arm/panhard suspension powered by an S-trimmed motor :-) My Mustang Page

08-07-2000, 12:17 PM	#4
93notch Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: South Plainfield, NJ, United States Posts: 7	Thanks guys, Now in light of this information... would it be better to go with the uppers and lowers with no panhard or is it better to have the panhard and no aftermarket control arms. Is it better to just replace the lowers and a panhard, just the uppers and a panhard. Is it best to just use rubber bushings in the control arms and still use the panhard bar? I did alot of research when buying this setup and didn't hear of any problems related to this in any articles or reviews i read. Thanks for warning me as to what i was abou to do wrong. Any input is greatly appreciated. Andrew

08-08-2000, 12:51 PM	#5
Skankin Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,349	The panhard bar is certainly a good idea. The only way to control lateral movement with out bind is the addition of a lateral arm. A good set of lowers is the place to start... then you can always go for a griggs torque arm, or some parallel uppers later (with proper springs). www.wmsracing.com has some killer looking race arms. I think they'd be the best. You get weight jacking, 3 positons for the stock sway bar (which is similar to changing it's thickness), a spherical bearing on the proper end... At $336.60 US, they're not cheap. If you could get them to drop the anti-squat brackets, and the price, it'd be even better! HTTP://www.wmsracing.com/pgi-Product%20Spec?WMS-RLA79M

08-08-2000, 01:05 PM	#6
93notch Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: South Plainfield, NJ, United States Posts: 7	Thanks Skankin, I've got the MM panhard bar and i cancelled my order on the Hothkis uppers and lowers due to the information i've gained here. I'm going to leave the stock uppers and just change the lowers. The car most likely won't see an open road coarse (maybe... but prob not) what i'm looking for is the ultimate street handling machine. I'm currently thinking about the non adjustable lowers from MM just because i understand things work best when you don't mix companies. The rest of the setup on the car is a Kenny Brown chassis kit (subs, k-member brace, strut tower brace) eibach pro-kit springs, tokico adjustables, and Hotchkis adjustable camber caster plates. i'll have it all installed when i get the lowers from wherever i decide to get them. I also have Dunlop SP 5000 225/50/16 tires. They're AMAZING in the rain. thanks for all the info guys. you really stopped me from making a BIG mistake

08-09-2000, 10:47 AM	#7
Skankin Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,349	Mixing products can be a bad thing (like you've found with the hotchis & panhard)... but sometimes one particular manufacturer doesn't have all the best ideas either... there are some band-aid solutions that just suck... The MM lowers should be better than arms with urethane bushings at both ends... so they're a decent choice. The panhard has some lateral movement as it swings through it's arc (ie. as suspension is compressed), so this will produce some twisting/compression of the urethane bushing on the chassis side. They do claim to have 'special' urethane bushings, and I've never heard of any problems, so it'll probably be fine for street use. A spherical joint on the chassis side would prevent any twisting of the torque boxes though. This is why I'd prefer the WMS, if I had the money. I'm not sure why MM did it the other way around. Perhaps they thought the torque box was stronger than the axle mount (which may be true), but people seem to have more trouble with the tack welded torque boxes than they do with the axle attachments. If you haven't done so, I'd get someone to weld up your torques boxes just to be safe (I had mine done when I put my subframes in). There are 4-link setups with spherical joints at both ends... mainly used by racers. This essentially eliminates any bind, but it would produce too much Noice, Vibration and Harshness for the average street driver.

08-09-2000, 12:20 PM	#8
drudis Moderator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Livonia, MI, USA Posts: 1,194	WOW! Having seen HTTP://www.wmsracing.com/pgi-Product%20Spec?WMS-RLA79M these control arms, I can say they are VERY much worth it. Sherical rod ends, AND spring perch adjustability. Griggs sellss stuff dor $500 for nearly the same features. Personally, I would go with these arms, and a panhard. ------------------ Darius Rudis Roadracer: Home built t-arm/panhard suspension powered by an S-trimmed motor :-) My Mustang Page

08-09-2000, 12:24 PM	#9
93notch Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: South Plainfield, NJ, United States Posts: 7	Thanks guys, you've been really helpful. I'll go with the WMS lowers. Since this is all being bought on an "as the money comes to me" basis it may be a bit of time before i get the final peice. Thanks again.

08-09-2000, 12:31 PM	#10
spinemup Registered Member Join Date: May 2000 Location: middleboro,ma, usa Posts: 734	hey d rudis, what make panhard bar would work? a maximum motorsports one, along with thier spring kit? i like those arms and they are at a very fair price.