Old school engine rebuilding wisdom welcome here

[DeltaMustang65]

I've been thinking of pulling the 289 out of my '65 mustang this summer to rebuild, blueprint, etc, and was wondering if anybody here has a little wisdom to impart on someone for their first real job.

I've rebuilt engines before, but they were little 4-bangers in my college engine rebuilding class (an elective). I have shop manuals to help with the 289/302/351 small blocks, but I've never worked with these before and I want to do a really good job. (As well as keep the engine looking very close to stock)

I know little stuff like porting/polishing/bowl work does wonders even with the stock cylinder heads, which I actually want to keep. If I go that route, would some stock looking roller rockers be cost effective? Also, I'm thinking of switching over to a 302 crank and flattop pistons with a cam to match. The 2-barrel 289s had dished pistons, right? I have several cam #s which Summit suggested for a strong 289 street build. I also currently have an Edelbrock F4B aluminum intake manifold and a Holley 4160 4-barrel 390cfm carb that I'd like to keep on the engine if at all possible since they're near new.

I know there are other ways to increase performance/reduce friction and drag that are economical, it's just that I'm not familiar with them since the only rebuilds I've done were straight rebuilds, not hot rodding. If it matters, my goal with this engine is a modest 300hp at the flywheel with torque to match, but if it's possible to get 300hp/tq at the wheels while still remaining economical, that would be even better. Actually, 300hp at the wheels would be as far as I'd like to take it for this car.

P.S. The transmission is a C4 auto freshly rebuilt with a shift improver kit. Hopefully this or the differential (stock 8in. with 2.80 gears) won't prove to be a weak link behind this engine.

Thanks in advance everyone.

[DeltaMustang65]

Quick side note:

What is involved in getting a 289 (originally a 2-barrel) to perform like a K-code 289 as far as revs are concerned? Is it possible to make this thing wind up to 6,000rpm safely? Again, thanks.

[Gearhead999]

It isn't hard today to get a standard 2-barrel 289 to run like a K-code.

When you rebuild it. Get an agressive cam, I prefer a hyd. roller. A good set of cylinder heads and balance everything. Have the rods sized and up the cap screws to ARP's. Aluminum intake and a 4-barrel with good ignition. You can go to 6K with ease.

[Rev]

I shift my 306 at 6000 every time I race it. If you want it to appear stock, you can still put a 302 crank in that 289 block (may have to relieve a little at the bottom of the cylinders for clearance). I do use a hydraulic flat tappet cam (Comp Cams 268 Extreme Energy, 224/230 at .050). I like the Edelbrock RPM Air Gap dual plane manifold. You will need more than the 390CFM carb. I use a 625 BG Road demon ( I did have to do some work on it to make it work well with that cam and intake though). Make sure you get a good machining job on the block and try to get a 0 deck height. I use flat top TRW forged pistons with the stock 302 rods and after market rod bolts (Pioneer or ARP may be better) and it makes a pump gas friendly 9.5/1 CR. Use a good aftermarket electronic ignition system (MSD is best IMHO) for consistent ignition good up to at least that 6000 rpm. You will want a good aluminum after market water pump (Edelbrock?) to cool those extra horses. Use a good 4 row brass or aluminum radiator. I use 2 electric fans as well, pusher and puller for adequate cooling.

You can keep the original heads and have a lot of expensive machine work done for not enough gain. A better idea is to use after market aluminum heads like TFTW or AFR. If you want it to appear fairly stock, you can paint the heads, intake, water pump and no one will probably know.

Also, put in a windage tray, crank scraper( I use Canton), and use under drive pulleys (March?). I think that will get you to maybe 250-280 rear wheel hp on a DynoJet or 350 at the flywheel. You will need to do a little more on the drive train. The 280/1 won't get it. You'll need at least 325/1 with a good limited slip unit (I use an Auburn Pro in my 8"). Also get a 3000 rpm stall convertor (I use a TCI Street Fighter). High performance clutches and bands are a good idea also for the C-4. You said you already have a shift kit.

Headers/exhaust, I almost forgot one of the most important things. I use Tri-Y's made by Patriot. Get them ceramic coated if you can. They're good to 6000 (that's what Shelby used). Run that into an aluminized 2 1/2" exhaust system and use high flow/low restriction mufflers (I like 3 chamber Flowmasters).

Not saying I know more than anyone else or even as much. Hit the link in my sig to see what all I did. Happy to answer any questions that I can. Good luck with your project.

Rev
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[DeltaMustang65]

Thanks guys.

Since this would be my first rebuild, I don't know everything that goes into the machine work and balancing. What specifically should I ask for when I take the block to be worked on? I know there are a few oil passages that should be widened, I've even heard of blocking one off in some engines to send more oil to more critical areas, has anyone had this done? Also, do I really NEED to take the cylinders .030 over in order to get in the neighborhood of 300hp?

I'm thinking that if I get a brand new cast iron 302 crank from Ford, it SHOULD be balanced already. Does the machine shop just make sure it's balanced when it's in the block? (I can't think of the word for this, I want to say crank end-play but I think it's more than that. Dynamic balancing or something?) I shouldn't have to pay to have anything actually worked on with a new crank, right? (I've heard somewhere that you can shave the counterweights in order to reduce the weight of the crank, but this seems VERY risky so I'm probably just going to pass) Can I assemble the bottom end myself once the machine work has been finished, and then take it to make sure it's balanced?

I've been told that I can have work done on the block to make it possible to use a roller cam (Again the term escapes me, I blame mid-terms). What does this involve and what can I expect to pay for this? Should I even consider doing this if I use the stock heads? What else should I be thinking about doing as far as the bottom end is concerned?

Again, thanks in advance.

[Gearhead999]

When you balance and engine, which is very cheap to do, you balance the crank, rods, pistons, rings, flywheel and balancer. It is WELL worth the money.

As far as a roller cam, great choice. Crane, for one, makes a retro fit kit that fits a reduced diameter roller cam to your block. I have installed several....and they work great.

Cylinder heads, well I'd save my money on working the stock heads over. Go out and get a set of Elderbrock or another. Well worth the money and darn near the same price as working you old stock head.

I wouldn't restict oil anywhere. Leave the oil route stock.

You usually go .030 over to clean up the bores and get the most cu in for the buck.

[DeltaMustang65]

Ok. Call me crazy but I think it'd be sweet to be able to say I've got stock heads and still be fairly fast (fast enough to spank these ricers even harder, and those annoying monkeys in their stock 5.0s). I also kinda hope I can keep my block virgin, but yeah, I know sometimes you need to bore it over just to keep the cylinder nice and straight.

Let's say I get some new aluminum heads. I will paint them, of course, but since it's a common thing to do these days I doubt anyone that knows the first thing about cars will be fooled. I should still have them ported and polished, right? What about any other work, is it needed or would the performance gain be too small to justify the cost of labor? The only bad thing I've heard about aluminum heads is that they don't mate well with iron blocks. Or maybe it had something to do with the gasket too, I forgot. Has anyone heard of this issue?

Just a couple more things for now.

Does anyone happen to know the difference in output of the 289 with stock worked-up heads and the same 289 with aluminum heads out of the box or with the average port job? (This is of course assuming that the hypothetical 289s' other parts would be the same and also that they would be optimized for use with aluminum heads)That would go a long way in helping me decide what route I should go.

And...

Would stock worked-up heads be too much of a bottleneck to justify a roller cam? I'm assuming that they're pretty much the best option for aluminum heads here, but if I'm wrong, by all means let me know.

Thanks all.

[rwhite65]

The numbers you are looking for are not far off if you are judging at the flywheel. If you want the 302, swap a 302 block in and put all the 289 front accesories on it. Then nobody can tell if you have a 289 or 302.

If you started off with a 5.0 engine, the heads are better then the older ones and the engine would have the roller cam right from the factory.

I am a bit partial to this conversion....cause I have done it to mine
Ryan

[DeltaMustang65]

Hmmm...I'm definately keeping the original 289 block unless, god forbid, it's cracked or something. But I doubt that very much.

If I can keep the stock heads and just have them worked on AND get 300hp at the flywheel along with the other upgrades, that would be good enough for me. I don't plan on racing, I'm scared to death of damaging this car since I restored it and it's in such great shape. I just figure why not beef it up a bit since I'm itching to rebuild it anyway. (I think it's fun. I was raised on Legos, what can I say...)

Also, I know some people at work that have run C4s just like mine that have stood up to just over 300 horses and haven't run into any problems over the years. I might actually be leaning towards this simply because I wouldn't have to change my transmission and differential. I don't have a whole lot of money to throw around, I'm a college student, after all.

On a different note, I've heard I can get 4 speed autos from Ford that look exactly or almost exactly like the old C4s. Are these the transmissions in the old 5.0s?

[rwhite65]

I would assume the transmission you are referring to is the Ford AOD. A bit bigger transmission, with a bigger oil pan. yes it came in the old 5.0's, I put one of those in my car too.
Ryan

[Gearhead999]

300HP is very obtainable with the 289. Remember the Shelby GT 350's were 306 HP. They had the iron heads, solid flat tappet cam, single aluminum 4-barrel, better exhaust manifolds and dual points.

With todays technoligy 300 HP a cinch.

The AOD is a popular swap. But it is about 100 lbs heavier then a C-4. I've done a few and it's a good swap. The OD really makes the difference when you're running steeper gears. It keeps the RPM's on the highway "liveable".

[69fastback]

www.powerheads.com is a very good source for ford iron heads that have been ported, polished, and a valve job. You can send them your heads and have everything done or they usally have heads already done up and can send you a pair. you still have to send your as a core but you don't have to wait for the work to be done.

Best advice I can give is make sure the rods are in good shape. Take them to a very well know shop to get them checked out. The rod bearings have spun twice on me in my 428. I finally got smart and paid the money for a "real" race engine builder to put my short block together. He said that the shape my old stuff was in he wouldn't even put the motor together until I got a new block, crank and a couple of new rods. Now my 428 still pulls at 6,200 rpms on the street. Haven't gone past that yet but will when i get it to the track. My point is you get what you pay for. Pay the big bucks now and you will only have to do it once instead of 3 times like I have.

[DeltaMustang65]

Thanks for the link. Powerheads seems like a good choice. I'm way up in Stockton, about 40 min south of Sacramento. Anyone know of any reputable shops like that around the central valley?

[DeltaMustang65]

I haven't been able to find anything in central or northern CA yet. Still looking around, but I get the feeling I'm looking in all the wrong places or something...

p.s. Anyone know how to delete messages like the ones above? I tried but couldn't figure out how and just ended up putting a bunch of .s in place of the double post.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by mattgoveiagt

I haven't been able to find anything in central or northern CA yet. Still looking around, but I get the feeling I'm looking in all the wrong places or something...

p.s. Anyone know how to delete messages like the ones above? I tried but couldn't figure out how and just ended up putting a bunch of .s in place of the double post.

I don't think they will allow you to delete your own messages anymore. They did allow that in the past. I think now you have to ask the moderator to do it. I personally liked it better the old way that allowed the poster to delete his message.

Rev

[DeltaMustang65]

So, anyone know of any reputable shops like powerheads in central or northern California?

[DeltaMustang65]

Anyone at all?