331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

I got the SCT tune and Dyno today. The engine died/choked off at 5200 RPM. The Dyno showed 246 HP @ 5100 and 297.5 TQ @ 3800.

The combo consist of a 331 SB (9.75 CR) GT-40 Irons (3 Angle Valve Job, Surfaced) 1.7 RR's, E-Cam, Shorty's, ORH and Flows. The rest is all factory as it came on the car (1994 Cobra).

I knew the stock TB, Mass Air Meter and Cobra intake would choke it some. I thought it would peak at 5500 and make another 30 RWHP. The wife and I are expecting so I wont be getting heads anytime soon.

Anybody have an opinion on what a larger Mass Air Meter and Throttle Body will do for the numbers? I know I'll have to get it retuned, to bad I did not get those parts before the tune although drivability was horrible. Happy with the TQ just want a little more HP. Anything I can do that wont affect the chip & tune to get a little more out of it? :confused:

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

I dynoed 255 RWHP with ported stock heads, stock TB, stock cam, cobra intake and all the bolt ons on the stock 302.

You probably have bigger issues than the TB and MAM.

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

You might be right!

I cant figure out what else could be causing it, the engine starts dropping HP drastically. The tuner said he thought the MAM, TB, GT-40 Irons and Cobra upper and lower were to restrictive for the extra cubes. I had always read that the aforementioned parts were good to atleast 5600 RPM even with the extra stroke. I figured they would be a limiting factor but not to that extent.

Can anybody think of anything I might have missed. The springs were new and good to .600 lift. It has #24lb injectors so it's not starving for fuel. The E-Cam, heads, TB & MAM sizes work well together and should make peak at 5600 on a 5.0. I have seen and read about stock long block 94-95 Cobra's with similar set ups (Cam, Exhaust,GT-40's 3 angle & Surfaced) getting better numbers. I did not expect over 300 RWHP but thought the extra stoke and slightly higher CR would net around 270-290 RWHP and 310-325 RWTQ. :confused:

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

331 engine with parts that are better suited to a 302. i would think torque would have been a lil better due to the engine size.

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

Cars running the cobra ecu almost never dyno well.

I would expect to put out over 350RWHP with my top end on a 331.

What was your AFR.

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

I think the torque should be higher. What about your timing and ignition?
Ryan

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

Timing was set at 10 degrees so the tuner could do what he wanted with it via the chip. The AFR was 13.9 according to the print off.

My post initial post is unclear, prior to 5100 RPM's the torque line was pretty flat and the HP was heading up. At 5100 RPM's the HP did not flatten out and then drop it just drastically dropped. No plataue (sp) justa rapid spike downward like it was missing fuel or air.

The rapid drop with no plataue (sp) is what confuses me. I put in a new fuel filter today and cleaned the dirty element in the MAM. I'am going to check fuel delivery first via checking the injectors. Then I'll address the air by getting a new MAM, TB and hopefully porting the lower. Then the stock ignition will be addressed.

What other things could cause such a rapid HP decline at high RPM's? I would think a need for more air would still plataue (sp) prior to falling off would that be correct?

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

First off, what type of dyno (mustang, dynojet, etc..)? Next thing, what does the A/F do when the power falls off? Also, how much timing are you runnning?

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

It was a Dyno Jet, total timing was at 28, the AFR dropped slightly. I'am going to get a new MAM and TB and hope it frees up some power when it's retuned. I know full potential will not be achieved with the GT-40 Irons, cant afford new ones right now though.

Does anybody have an estimate on how lean it will get with a 73 mm MAM and an aftermarket 65 mm TB. Once I get those on I will not be able to get it tuned for several weeks.

Thanks For The Help!

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

Any particular reason why you were only running 28* of total timing? With non-p GT-40's you'll need more timing, with my old combo it was best with 34* of total timing. On back to back runs, I gained 1.5mph going from 30* total to 32*, then another mph going up to 34*.

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

Afetr re-reading this thread it sounds to me like your clutch is slipping.

Bet you a dollar. ;)

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

Agree on the low degree of advance. 5150 rpm is where the torque and the hp meet.
Sounds like it needs more timing.

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

I will advance total timing to 32. I hope the clutch is not slipping we just put it in ;)

I changed the cap, plug and coil wires, fuel filter (dirty appeared to be from Ford on a 100K chasis). I was dumb not to look into that before putting it back together. Adding a new MAM and TB this week. I will then get it back to the Dyno late next week and let everybody know how she does. It already feels stronger except it no longer wants to idle when the chip is flipped to the street tune :confused:

I appreciate the reply's it really helps me in tracking down cause(s). Everything will be addressed and I will be looking into the clutch slipage.

Thanks

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

bingo, there's your problem. When it starts to go that lean, it will NOT rev where it needs to.
Can you post up the hp/AF curve?

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

oh yeah, PM me if you'd be interested in purchasing a used pro-M 80mm MAM calibrated for 24lb injectors, for cheap

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

The cobra intake and mam and 65mm TB will support way more HP than what you are making. Roughly about 425 FWHP.

The heads are the bottleneck.

I know people with the GT-40 intake on 351 based engines making over 400RWHP through a 65mm TB.

There are a number of things it could be. Maybe the cam is a tooth off??? I doubt it but you never know. I am not sure about the 94-95 cobras but the 93 cobras have a mass air sensor calibrated for 19# injectors even though it has 24#er's the ecu makes up the difference. So be careful buying a MAM calibrated for 24# injectors.

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

I dont have a scanner so I cant post the sheet they gave me. I appreciate the offer on the Pro-M unfortunately one is already on the way ordered two days ago. :( I put one the new 65mm TB and will put on the 76mm MAF nad CAI when it arrives and get it retuned. It idles now but will die if you turn on the AC, also the exhaust smells real strong.

Dark5.0

The cam was installed straight up dont think that's the problem. The stock TB was 60mm and was replaced today with a 65mm. I will reuse the stock electronics on the new MAM. 94-95's are like the 93's the MAM is for 19's and the j4j1 modifies it for the 24's.

I figured the heads would be a bottleneck but did not figure they would hurt me that much. I cant afford new ones right now but will get some next year when the motor is still low mileage.

Thanks for the input guys it has been a great help. I'll post the new numbers after getting her back to the Dyno and the chip retuned. :)

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

a dirty fuel filter can surely cause a huge loss in power. my 96 cobra ran like a diff car after simply changing it. haha. an if it is 100K old.. good god i dunno how ur car even runs. i hope u gett it all worked out!

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

If your car is a real Cobra it should have came with a 65mm TB from the factory :confused:

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

Car is a real Cobra (#4709) I bought it from a friend who was the original owner (bone stock down to air silencer when purchased).

I've read that the 93's had a 65mm but 94-95's had a 60mm. No idea why they went smaller with the more restrictive intake inlet. I checked several places and even measured mine before ordering another one. :D

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

Well i just learned something. :cool:

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

I think the AF ratio should be near 13. Total timing advance should be 36 or maybe even a little more with those heads.

Rev

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

Went back in with new 65mm TB and C&L 76mm MAM kit. Gained 14.5 HP and 9 ft lbs TQ. Timing was bumped and clutch was fine so I guess the GT-40 heads must be killing me. :confused:

Twisted Wedges or AFR's will be my next purchase after I can save a little jack in the next few months. I'll post an update after that and let you guys know how it goes.

Thanks for the help! :D

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

post your air/fuel curve from either run, it really sounds like you're going lean and not making the power it should

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

The heads should not be the problem. I have seen 330rwhp with a stock cam, 306, GT40 intake, shorty headers.

Take a 3 1/2 inch floppy with you to the dyno. Have them save your files to it, then email them to me. I have WinPep and can post all the info.

Andy

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

I am with this guy :D

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

I did not clarify in my update post that the peak HP stayed put from 5100-5300 before dropping this time.

I dont know much about the computer systems and programs that work with the Dyno's. Would I have to get another run or would they have it saved from my tune so they could check it with the next upgrade? I would love to get it and e-mail it to you guys.

I figured the GT-40 Irons would hold me back some but felt the car would put out 275-295 RWHP as is. I was originally planning to use those heads until winter and then replace them for something better. If it's not the heads then I'am at a total loss for what would be holding me back.I did not expect over 300 RWHP with the GT-40 Irons with just a mill job and 3 angle on them. I have tried replacing the TB, Fuel Filter, Plug Wires and MAM and gained so little :confused:

I'll call the shop and see if I can get something worked out if they save the programs. Hate to drop another $ 100-150 on a retune without heads.

Appreciate the help guys. ;)

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

They will have them saved and they might even be able to email them to you. The files are only 4k each. Did the dyno operator have any ideas? Where was the fuel pressure, and did the tuner note the injector duty cycle?

Andy

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

[QUOTE=andy669]They will have them saved and they might even be able to email them to you. The files are only 4k each. Did the dyno operator have any ideas? Where was the fuel pressure, and did the tuner note the injector duty cycle?

I will call them Tuesday morning and ask them to e-mail them to me. The operator thought the heads and intake were killing the power potential of the shortblock. I dont think the fuel pressure was checked, I did not have a guage on it or an adjustable regulator. That is an obvious oversight on my part, probably could have picked up a few HP there. :o The duty cycle of the injectors was not discussed either.

I'am ignorant to what can and cant be checked via the computer during a tune/chip burn session. Hopefully I can get that e-mailed to me and forward it to you. Again maybe I was way off with expectations out of this combo (275-295 RWHP), and figured with new heads 310-330 RWHP. But I would like to maximize it for now until new heads are purchased this fall.

I have a cousin with a 94 Vette and a big mouth that keeps asking about it. Right now I'm too embarrased to let people know it's stroked to a 331.

Thanks for all of the help.

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

well that vette has a 350, and you should be able to whoop him even with your car not making all of its potential hp. The pre LS-1 Vette's are WEAK (ZR-1's not included :) )

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

As far as the cousin goes, tell him you have some tuning issues right now. You can spank him when you get your combo dialed in....depending on his year of vette.
Ryan

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

I'm guessing one of your problems...and probably the main one...is the stock Cobra computer. From what I have heard...they suck! Do the conversion to the regular Mass-Air 5.0 computer. I may be wrong but I believe it's the A9L. A guy on another board I'm on did the computer conversion and picked up a TON of power. You should seriously look into this Fox-4-Cobra.

Re: 331 Dyno #'s Dead @ 5100 RPM (Long)
 

The tuner should be able to get around the limitations of the stock computer with no problems. Heres the picture of the printout that Fox-4-Cobra emailed me. The place he dynoed at wouldnt send him the whole file. :mad:

The only thing that stands out to me is that the numbers are low. It looks like its holding the power pretty decent before he stopped the pull. You cant tell exactly what the air-fuel is, but it looks like its in the 13.5 range.

With flat-tops and 93 octane, 28 degrees is about all those chambers want for timing. I dont think thats the problem.

I'd really like to know exactly what the injectors were doing. From there I'd look at valvetrain geometry. Also, what spark plugs are you running? The next time you go back to the dyno, take a 3.5" floppy and tell them you want the files saved to it, otherwise you will go elsewhere.

Andy