331,opinions and info
 

i was thinken of building a 396...but just cant justify the cost for a mostly street car...im now thinken of a 302 based stroker

im looken at the 331...what are your guys thoughts and opinions o them...and ppl with them how do you like them/it...

what kind of number would i be looken at with a engine like this??

thanx

The 331 is a sweet combo. With what I have there is more power than I can put down on the street. It revs so quick and loves the high RPM's. I am totally pleased with my current combo, I just have some other small things to do on the car now. But to tell the truth my next project is going to be something like a 408 with a novi 2000 or 3000. I highly recommend the 331, it is the hot set up right now.

did you build your own short block or did you just buy the short block? how much did it cost for you to do what ever you did? also do you have any track numbers?

I got the shortblock built at Ford Performance Solutions. I think they did great job and were really nice to work with. I think I paid about $2600.00 for the short block with all forged internals. All together though I have way too much money into it, maybe like 15 or 16 thousand. My friend just got one from them for $2200.00 with a iron crank and no main support. I just got mine running so no track times yet I am currently rebuilding my tourqe boxes they decided to seperate into a couple different pieces. I'm hoping to get 450 hp N/A out of it. -Chris

I got my 331 from DSS. Its a torque monster. It dyno'd at 345 rwhp but 385 ft-lbs. I'm running about .550 lift but it idles smooth. On the other side of the coin, if I didn't already have the intake & headers, I would have gone for the 427 stroker. Not much cost differnce but tons more power.

I've always heard that strokers were not as reliable as say, a 351 Windsor. Anyone with a 331 or 347 stroker with high miles to attest otherwise? I'd rather stroke a 302 than drop in a built 351, seems more cost effective. However, I want a daily driver with power for fun, not a drag demon.


Matthew

I've got ductile rings, Crower rods, J&E pistons (with all rings above the pin) & a steel crank. I can't imagine where this wouldn't last as long as a 351 built from the same parts.

Re: 331,opinions and info
 

You should go for the 351 based stroker, for a few more dollars you'll have a bunch for streetable torque.

i am looken at possibly a 351...but i want a short block and i want to use the hyd. roller cams and i dont know where to get one..i know ford has them

I'm in the process of building up a 331. Here is some cost info:

$1,770 - DSS 331 stroker kit with upgraded 4340 steel crank, 4340 H-beams, Probe Sportsman Race Series pistons (for TFS TW heads), Federal Mogul Ducitle Iron ring set.

$400 - Oiling system includes Canton 7qt. deep sump, DSS pro windage tray, Melling HV pump, ARP oil shaft

$450 - Machining work, includes hot tank, hone, over bore, and balancing to 28 oz.

$350 - ARP Bolts, Fel-pro gaskets (loc-wires for me), ARP studs, pilot bearing, cam bearings, etc.

$1000 - Upgraded engine parts, includes DSS Main support system, Fluidampr harmonic damper (28 oz), engergy suspension motor and tranny mounts, Cloyes true double roller timing chain set, water pump, custom 331 JMS chip re-burn.

It should be a stout little motor, especially with a some boost from a ProCharger D1-SC (above stroker will come in around 9.1:1 comp.) Keep in mind that engine machining and bolts/gaskets/etc will always be in the mix, its the new headers, engine control system, etc, that I didn't want to mess with on the 351 based stroker. Plus, a nice little 331 with 9.1:1 and mild cam should have nice street manners, but will really scream with boost.

n20lx - what compression are you running?

E

$1,700 some odd dollars seems pretty high for a 331 kit...a guy i know quoted me around $1,350 for a 331 kit with all forged parts

as for as i understand the stock computer will work with a 351...and i also plan on possibly a PMS controler or something similar...

will 351 swap long tube headers bolt to my mac H pipe?

The pricing on the kit from DSS works out like this:

$1295 - Basic 331 kit
300 - Upgrade to 4340 Forged Steel crank
100 - Upgrade to TFS TW specific pistons
75 - Upgrade to Federal Mogul Ductile Iron rings

$1,770 - TOTAL

If you're getting a 331 kit with all forged steel internals for $1,350 from a reputable speed shop, then by all means - get it!

The PMS will probably be a good idea. I plan on switching systems when I get the supercharger.

Good luck,
E

My freind is building a 331 shortblock. He is using a new block from sumitt ($299) and a all forged parts stroker kit. He had the block bored .030 and the rotating assembly balanced at a machine shop.

He was telling me that if I wanted to build one, to just buy a short block already assembled, because its cheaper and easier.

something to think about.

by the way, a lot of people want forged cranks and will pay extra for it, but you dont really need it. I think a cast crank can handle around 650 HP. One of the ford crate engines makes that much power using a cast crank, and I have read that forged cranks are overkill for the average street/strip motor.

Two excellent points
 

Mach 1

There is definitely some validity to what your friend said about purchasing an assembled short block being probably easier and cheaper. I'm just big on knowing exactly who is doing my work and like to be very involved in the process. Therefore, I had a local machine shop that I know (Fowler Engines) do the machining and a friend/local engine builder do the assembling.

Good point on the crank too. DSS and others I spoke with suggested that the cast crank would handle 650 HP - probably more than what even a girdled 302 block can handle. However, I'm 'Mr. Overkill' sometimes and decided that with the boost, I better get a forged steel crank. More than anything I wanted peace of mind.

If you don't mind, it would be great if you could keep us posted on your friend's 331 build-up. :)

E

Re: Two excellent points
 

Well, hes building a carbed combo, with AFR 185 heads and a victor jr. intake manifold, with a barry grant carb, and an x-303 cam.


should be a screamer.

Hes been milking it, setting the parts together on his engine stand and admiring it and sending pictures around, saying hows hes going to blow my doors off instead of putting the thing in his car and firing it up.

I thihnk hes gonna get the car painted first. lmao...thats a funny story. He tried to paint the car himself to save money, and he spend $100's on quality primer, paint, and materials, only to sand it off and spray it again a couple times because it looked like crap.

And his entire garage floor is an ugly shade of pink...(was pianting car red) he tried to make a "homemade paint booth" with some sheets and a fan...lol...wasnt happening.

I know he had problems witht he balance. He ordered eithier a 28 or a 50 oz imbalnce flywheel and dampner, but the machine shop couldnt balance it to what he intended (cant remember which one) and they had to go the other way with it. He sent the flywheel and dampner back to sumitt and had to eat like a 20% restocking fee because he had the parts for a long time already.

anyway, if he ever gets it running, Ill let you know more. He's aiming for 10:1 compression, and he wants to install a direct port nitrous system later on.

So in the long run, which motor will last the most miles: 351 or 331 stroker?

probaby a 351. 331 strokers are supposed to be more reliable than 347 strokers, but i would have to assume a factory style 351 would be the longest lasting. but 302 strokers are just gaining more popularity now, so I guess theres not a lot out there with high mileage yet.

302 LX Eric:
My compression works out to 10.25:1. I run 100 octane fuel. I could get away with 93 but I'm running 24 deg. inital timing & lots of fuel taken out with a PMS. Before anybody says I'm nuts with that much timing, the car was professioanlly tuned on a dyno with an air/fuel meter.

All:
The point I was trying to make earlier is trying to say what motor will last depends on the build. The big problem with the earl 347's was the ring location. Most builders have solved that problem. It alos depends on how hard you push it. Many poeple get 150K+ out of a stock 5.0. Mine lasted 56K. My experience was that rpm was a bigger killer than hp.

might be alittle off subject but dose anyone have any opinions on what heads to run on a 351(non stroker) motor...are the afr 185's to small?

Actually the 185's are perfect for 351's, or strokers, or power adder 302's, on a n/a combo, the 165's are good for 306-331's imo, now if you have a power adder 351, the afr 205's would of course be the badboys, but not very streetable.

I bought my 331 from Keith Craft, it cost me just a tad over $2900. That was without a cam and chain but with a main support. If you don't already have the heads, I'd suggest making it real easy on yourself and order a long block.

I agree that the 351 would probably last longer too, meatier block. I thought about going that route myself. Decided the 302 based would be better for my needs and the 331 is a good combo, especially for a blower. I think the 331 would last a good long while(I hope). I have maybe 5k on it.

man am i kicking myself in the *** now, i built a 306 with all forged parts(all new)and the power is just not what i was hoping for. i should have built a 331. i know someone with a 351 in a 90lx and it moves pretty good(carbed)i would go with a 331 though and just get the pms, and tune it all. after all there is a lot of power in the tuning on fords. i ordered the pms 3 weeks ago and they said that it was on backorder for 2 weeks, and i still havent received it. once i get it and tune it in ill let you know how i like it.

In reference to the 28 or 50 oz balance, I was told by DSS, Coast High Perf., and another shop that 28 oz is the way to go with the 331.

Tom Nageal at DSS said that I could use my stock damper (50 oz), but that getting it to balance would take some serious drilling by the machine shop. So, in the interest of safety and with the future blower, I decided to go with the 28 oz Fluidampr.

The 331 also has a nice rod ratio - which, I think means better longevity by not loading the side walls as much as say a 347 would.

DemonGT - if you're thinking of going with a 351 based stroker, I hear the 377 w/blower combo works well :D (a la Dan)

E

Thanx for the info, I'll keep that in mind on building my next motor.

:)

I heard the "rod ratio" on a 331 stroker was actually better than a 302. Is this true?

I have heard that also from some serious engine builders. They also said that the 347 was even better yet. I agree with them... The 454, and 400sb rod ratio is worse then the 331, and 347 and they last for 150000+ miles.

im looken at keith crafts 357 short block right now

DAMN!! I wish I had seen the posts in this one first before I posted in the other.

Guys, I did ALOT of research on the different 302 strokers before I bought what I have. Two years ago, when I bought mine, the 347 was the stroker to have but I found that the 331 was the perfect balance. I can't remember the sources(Paul's performance rings a bell) but I'm sure I could search through the 5 cases of mags in my closet to find some of the articles. They had different builders giving their take on the strokers and the 331 was only mentioned a couple times but it made my mind up. It does have a better stroke to rod ratio than the 302. Its a perfect engine for a blower, its a good engine period. It will last longer than a 347 but the 347 will give more power. I'm cheap(as some of you may know) so I wanted what would last, I plan on getting over 100k miles out of this engine. I think the 331 is what Ford should have built to start with... I'll see if i can find some of the articles that made my mind up(give me a few days to sort).

Why is the 331 the perfect engine for a blower?

Any engine will benefit from forced induction if the set up is tuned properly.

What makes the 331 so special about a charger?

It's the balance (less friction/resistance). I'll see if I can find the article on it for ya.

sn95....
I picked up about 15 hp & found out I was shifting way to high after having the car tuned on the dyno with the pms. If you can get your car to AFM get Danny Biggs to tune it. Its worth it. It was a 3 hour drive & I had to rent a trailer but the car feels better at higher rpm. I dyno'd at about 308 rwhp with a set up simillar to yours with no tuning. Blew up the next time at the track so it might have been good for more. Ran 12.70's all day when it stayed together. Still ran 13.20 throwing two rods just past half track.

302eric.....
The guy I talked to at DSS almost killed me just for mentioning fluiddamper. They recommended any thing but. I use a Motorsport one but the front seal leaks like a sieve (changed seal didn't help). i think coast make a 28oz. that fits up just like stock (no spacer).

All chicago guys:
Where do you run? I'm usually at US41 (when I don't have a hole in the radiator like now).

n20LX - That's interesting about what DSS said. When I spoke to them (several occasions), I almost purchased the damper that they manufacture, but didn't since I had never heard anything about them (good or bad). And, since the DSS damper was $300 and the Fluidampr was $350, I figured I would stay with a name that I had heard of before. Plus the Fluidampr is hermetically sealed (welded) so it shouldn't leak and it's SFI SPEC 18.1 certified.

I hope I didn't make a mistake? :confused:

E

Proof that not everbody knows what they are talking about. A guy once told me Fords suck...I guess he knew everything also?

Also, I believe the 331 is a higher revving engine(higher rpms where a blower makes more power), the 347 has the torque down low. I've yet to start digging in the mags, I will though.

Something that struck me as funny... Keith Craft suggested I not go with a windage tray, I wanted one. They told me that the little extra hp it gave didn't justify the loss in block cooling. They said that the windage tray cut down on the oil splashing against the block and that the block needed that. I thought that was odd but I took their advice.

:confused:

The 331 should rev not as high as a 302. A stroker has more weight to spin, and a longer stroke...less free reving.

But if your comparing a 331 to a 347, sure, it should rev higher with less problems

rbatson - I'm surprised that KC would say that. I guess the way I look at it is that you gain power by keeping excessive oil away from the crank, but still allow enough to lubricate and cool. Additionally, with a high volume oil pump, it should be able to sufficently supply oil to the entire motor - even with a windage tray.

My engine builder suggested a windage tray based on his 18+ years of building high performance speed boat and race car motors. I'm going down to see him this weekend, I'll see what else I can learn about windage trays. :)

I'm also curious about where my new 331 will make its power (both HP & TQ). I'll be paying a visit to the same dyno that I used with my old 302 mill, so it should be interesting.

One thing that I learned from my last dyno session was that my HP dropped off much sooner than I thought. Peak HP of 289 RWHP came at 5300 and peak TQ of 312 RWTQ came at 4500. 90% of peak HP came from 4400 to 6000 and 90% of peak of TQ came from 3600 to 5300.

I'll let you know how it comes out.

E

Mach 1:
What's your boggle? I was just passing along what I was told by DSS. Did anybody claim to be the supreme brain of motorsports?????? To paraphrse Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction "I don't remeber asking you a g. d. thing!" Just another thought that is in no way implieed to be true accurate or otherwise: If you use a lighter reciricating mass(like with aluminum rods), the 331 or 347 will rev just as high. Or you can simply move the same amount of air through increased displacement.

Aluminum rods..yeah, you see a lot of those on street engines...

I just disagree with the guy at DSS and implied that because some guy at DSS told you something doesnt mean its true. You got a problem with that?

I don't have problem with anybody's opinion. I don't like somebody being a jerk & taking a quote out to make me look like a fool because you don't agree wih me. I really don't care what anybody else runs. When the at DSS told be about broken cranks I changed my mind. About the aluminum rod thing, I didn't know we had limited the discussion to street engines. I don't consider my engine to be a street engine so my work is done here....

I dont think thats what happened. Help is available, hang in there...

Later

Mach 1:
Whatever man, you'll be the first to know when help gets here.

Thats ok, you can tell somebody else first, I really dont care

would the afr 185's be a good head for a 331?

yes

I do not know how old this thread is,but if I can get a 393-408 with cast crank for the same price as I can get a steel cranked 331-347 I am going to go with the 393-408 combo. If you are a street brawler and you in one of those areas where a guy wants to look under your hood before you race get the 331-347 combo just get plenty of cam and heads so you can rev the piss out of it,might as well take advantage of the ability to rev with cubic inches thrown in

stroked..the guy i was talken to that sells stroker kits said this for a 393

"rotating assembly would be in the $1199 range + rings and bearings. "

thats all forged internals also

sounds like a steal to me only $1199? man I would jump on that one

:D:D:D lol