Clevland vs Windsor!

02-27-2001, 06:39 PM

Difference between them? When did ford use the clevland and the Windsor?

------------------
-87 GT, K&N, 5-speed, Walker exhaust, no air silencer. timing
75000miles. (This vinter 3,55 and mac 15/8 and H-pipes and a Hurst shifter)
14,61 and 95,59mph

Unit 5302 · 02-27-2001, 07:12 PM

The 351C uses the same bore and stroke as the 351W. The similarities almost end with that exclusive one.

The 351C uses canted valves allowing for larger valves to be placed on a limited bore. They came with valving up to 2.19" intake 1.74" exhaust.

The 351W uses much smaller valves, the largest I've seen is 2.02" intake 1.60" exhaust.

The Cleveland has a different 4 bolt main block, different heads, different everything really.

Stock vs. stock, the Cleveland will whip the Windsor, no problems. Tuned, the Cleveland will more than likely kick the modified Windsors butt. You cannot get aftermarket Windsor heads to outflow the stock Cleveland 4v heads. We're talking intake flow rates of 285cfm stock. Aftermarket aluminum heads will be more manageable on the Windsor though.

You've got a couple options to look at.

The Windsor will generate significantly higher levels of low end torque stock/light modded, they are easy to run EFI on, they have a huge aftermarket availible, and they are lighter.

The Cleveland comes ready to rock from the factory with tons of power potential in 4V form, it's got oiling problems (needs passage restrictors put in), it's expensive to mod, aftermarket parts supplies are low, they are difficult to convert to EFI, they are heavier, and the later 70's blocks had come cracking problems.

All out power: Cleveland
Budget minded: Windsor
Fuel Injection: Windsor
Reliability: Windsor (everyday driver)
Reliability: Cleveland (over 600hp)
Cool Factor: Cleveland
Aftermarket: Windsor
Chassis Fitment: Windsor

They both have their drawbacks and benefits.

Unit 5302 · 02-27-2001, 07:16 PM

Almost forgot, the 351W ranges from about 1968-1995 (production years). They are still easy to obtain.

The 351C was around from about 1970-1976ish for the most part. Trucks may have had the 2v later than that, but the prime 351C's were between about 70-73.

I'm actually not a specific expert on the engines, so I may be off a couple years.

Five0 · 02-27-2001, 07:43 PM

If the cleveland is a stronger block then can you run the windsor heads on it and build it like a windsor or convert it to roller?

------------------
James Cox
nochevy@hotmail.com
1991 Mustang LX
12.565 @109.38mph 1.764 60ft

Unit 5302 · 02-27-2001, 09:18 PM

Totally different oiling systems. The blocks share nothing in common. I'd be like trying to bolt on 351 heads onto a 427.

You could buy an 351W SVO block that would be at least as strong as the Cleveland, but then you are talking major $$ again.

84_GT350 · 02-27-2001, 11:47 PM

Clevelands also made all their power above 4000rpm or so. Those manhole sized valves killed low end torque which is why Ford eventually downsized them for use in street cars. Clevelands (I believe) also have wider blocks which is why the heads and intakes won't fit other engines without some customization. The Boss engines are a variation on the Cleveland engines (or vice versa) which is why they're so d@mn cool.

------------------
1984 1/2 GT350 (#842 Hatchback w/ T-tops), 302HO, Comp cams Xtreme Energy cam, Carter 625cfm carb, Weiand Stealth intake, MSD distributor, MSD coil, FMS 9mm wires, 1 5/8" MAC unequal shorties, 2 1/2" MAC Prochamber H-pipe, Flowmaster 2 chambers, KYBs, 16"x8" 4 lug Cobra Rs, Falken 245/45ZR16s

GTGrl00 · 02-28-2001, 12:01 AM

You can't use Windsor heads on a Clevland block, but you can use Clevland Heads on a Windsor block or better known as a Clevor (I think that's how you spell it) Block. Power Heads makes a kit to convert Clevland Heads so that they can be used with a Windsor Block. Go to www.powerheads.com to check it out.

------------------
Yours in SPEED=======
Mandy aka GTGRL00

GTGrl00 · 02-28-2001, 12:03 AM

Oh yeah I forgot the Boss 302 is basically a Windsor variation 4 bolt main block topped with 4v Clevland heads.

------------------
Yours in SPEED=======
Mandy aka GTGRL00

MiracleMax · 02-28-2001, 12:41 AM

Windsor and Cleveland heads are interchangable with water jacket modifications, but from a bolt on standpoint, a windsor with a set of Yates heads will blow a cleveland so far into the weeds, you'd need the hubble telescope to even get a clue as to where it went.

Pound for pound the windsor engine (thanks to the good ol 5.OH!) has so much more potential nowa'days. it's ligher, smaller and less costly to modify. Not to mention most of the stuff out for it is lightyears ahead in technology compared to the cleveland stuff. As far as port flow and the like, I guess the 4V heads do flow good. They have enough volume to ventilate a freak'n mine shaft without weezing. Now if you add things in like velocity, swirl, etc. those big numbers don't add up to squat. Especially if it's all lazy airflow. I know there are more than a few cleveland diehards here

, but the clevland is to the windsor what the windsor is to the modular motor.

02-28-2001, 04:21 AM

I don´t need a book...just this board. Thanks!

------------------
-87 GT, K&N, 5-speed, Walker exhaust, no air silencer. timing
75000miles. (This vinter 3,55 and mac 15/8 and H-pipes and a Hurst shifter)
14,61 and 95,59mph

Dark Knight · 03-02-2001, 03:18 PM

arent yates heads pretty much the same as clev. heads? just tweaked to fit a 351w block and revised ports... you cant use a 351w intake with yates heads..
stock for stock, a 351c can be built to make way more HP than a 351w.. thats why they used to run them in pro stock and not the 351w..
the 351c cost alot more to produce..so they dropped it.. to bad.. just think what they could have done with 30 years of technology ;-)

------------------
84 convt,'95 302,AFR's, performer
3.55's, underdrives stock shorties
stock cam, 1.7's
14.16@100.08, 255RWHP on a hot day
265 on the mph/weight chart

MiracleMax · 03-07-2001, 12:26 AM

Yeah if your indicating that they are canted valve heads. They are similar to the cleveland heads, but with a big leap in airflow technology. Probably the greatest difference is in the exhaust port. Anybody remeber those port plates? they basically placed a shelf on the short side radius of the exhaust port on the clevland style head greatly improving exhuast port flow. I dunno what Ford was trying to do with the cleveland engine family? But it definetely wasn't somwthing to do with efficant head design. The 351 cleveland 4v was rated at 300 hp if I remeber correctly and for an engine that sports a seat of heads like the 351 cleveland, one would think that it had the potential to easily produce gobs more power that the factory could have taken advantage of.

02-27-2001, 06:39 PM	#1
joakim Guest Posts: n/a	Clevland vs Windsor! Difference between them? When did ford use the clevland and the Windsor? ------------------ -87 GT, K&N, 5-speed, Walker exhaust, no air silencer. timing 75000miles. (This vinter 3,55 and mac 15/8 and H-pipes and a Hurst shifter) 14,61 and 95,59mph

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
question about Windsor and windsor Jr. heads	82 GT	Windsor Power	8	06-02-2003 02:14 PM
Windsor Verse a Clevland	Miss Mischief	Windsor Power	9	03-11-2003 06:52 PM
Windsor and Cleveland Differences??	MazdaProwner	Blue Oval Lounge	5	01-20-2003 03:54 AM
windsor engine swap into volvo	Guy in 916	Windsor Power	5	12-15-2001 09:02 AM
351 Windsor engine	78stangII	Windsor Power	11	05-14-2001 01:42 PM

02-27-2001, 07:12 PM	#2
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	The 351C uses the same bore and stroke as the 351W. The similarities almost end with that exclusive one. The 351C uses canted valves allowing for larger valves to be placed on a limited bore. They came with valving up to 2.19" intake 1.74" exhaust. The 351W uses much smaller valves, the largest I've seen is 2.02" intake 1.60" exhaust. The Cleveland has a different 4 bolt main block, different heads, different everything really. Stock vs. stock, the Cleveland will whip the Windsor, no problems. Tuned, the Cleveland will more than likely kick the modified Windsors butt. You cannot get aftermarket Windsor heads to outflow the stock Cleveland 4v heads. We're talking intake flow rates of 285cfm stock. Aftermarket aluminum heads will be more manageable on the Windsor though. You've got a couple options to look at. The Windsor will generate significantly higher levels of low end torque stock/light modded, they are easy to run EFI on, they have a huge aftermarket availible, and they are lighter. The Cleveland comes ready to rock from the factory with tons of power potential in 4V form, it's got oiling problems (needs passage restrictors put in), it's expensive to mod, aftermarket parts supplies are low, they are difficult to convert to EFI, they are heavier, and the later 70's blocks had come cracking problems. All out power: Cleveland Budget minded: Windsor Fuel Injection: Windsor Reliability: Windsor (everyday driver) Reliability: Cleveland (over 600hp) Cool Factor: Cleveland Aftermarket: Windsor Chassis Fitment: Windsor They both have their drawbacks and benefits.

02-27-2001, 07:16 PM	#3
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	Almost forgot, the 351W ranges from about 1968-1995 (production years). They are still easy to obtain. The 351C was around from about 1970-1976ish for the most part. Trucks may have had the 2v later than that, but the prime 351C's were between about 70-73. I'm actually not a specific expert on the engines, so I may be off a couple years.

02-27-2001, 07:43 PM	#4
Five0 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: middleburg, fl, usa Posts: 1,134	If the cleveland is a stronger block then can you run the windsor heads on it and build it like a windsor or convert it to roller? ------------------ James Cox nochevy@hotmail.com 1991 Mustang LX 12.565 @109.38mph 1.764 60ft

02-27-2001, 09:18 PM	#5
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	Totally different oiling systems. The blocks share nothing in common. I'd be like trying to bolt on 351 heads onto a 427. You could buy an 351W SVO block that would be at least as strong as the Cleveland, but then you are talking major $$ again.

02-27-2001, 11:47 PM	#6
84_GT350 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: Overland Park, KS, USA Posts: 1,631	Clevelands also made all their power above 4000rpm or so. Those manhole sized valves killed low end torque which is why Ford eventually downsized them for use in street cars. Clevelands (I believe) also have wider blocks which is why the heads and intakes won't fit other engines without some customization. The Boss engines are a variation on the Cleveland engines (or vice versa) which is why they're so d@mn cool. ------------------ 1984 1/2 GT350 (#842 Hatchback w/ T-tops), 302HO, Comp cams Xtreme Energy cam, Carter 625cfm carb, Weiand Stealth intake, MSD distributor, MSD coil, FMS 9mm wires, 1 5/8" MAC unequal shorties, 2 1/2" MAC Prochamber H-pipe, Flowmaster 2 chambers, KYBs, 16"x8" 4 lug Cobra Rs, Falken 245/45ZR16s

02-28-2001, 12:01 AM	#7
GTGrl00 Stang Chic Extraordinaire Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Hayward, California, USA Posts: 158	You can't use Windsor heads on a Clevland block, but you can use Clevland Heads on a Windsor block or better known as a Clevor (I think that's how you spell it) Block. Power Heads makes a kit to convert Clevland Heads so that they can be used with a Windsor Block. Go to www.powerheads.com to check it out. ------------------ Yours in SPEED======= Mandy aka GTGRL00

02-28-2001, 12:03 AM	#8
GTGrl00 Stang Chic Extraordinaire Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Hayward, California, USA Posts: 158	Oh yeah I forgot the Boss 302 is basically a Windsor variation 4 bolt main block topped with 4v Clevland heads. ------------------ Yours in SPEED======= Mandy aka GTGRL00

02-28-2001, 12:41 AM	#9
MiracleMax Registered Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: Hayes, Va, USA Posts: 798	Windsor and Cleveland heads are interchangable with water jacket modifications, but from a bolt on standpoint, a windsor with a set of Yates heads will blow a cleveland so far into the weeds, you'd need the hubble telescope to even get a clue as to where it went. Pound for pound the windsor engine (thanks to the good ol 5.OH!) has so much more potential nowa'days. it's ligher, smaller and less costly to modify. Not to mention most of the stuff out for it is lightyears ahead in technology compared to the cleveland stuff. As far as port flow and the like, I guess the 4V heads do flow good. They have enough volume to ventilate a freak'n mine shaft without weezing. Now if you add things in like velocity, swirl, etc. those big numbers don't add up to squat. Especially if it's all lazy airflow. I know there are more than a few cleveland diehards here , but the clevland is to the windsor what the windsor is to the modular motor.

02-28-2001, 04:21 AM	#10
joakim Guest Posts: n/a	I don´t need a book...just this board. Thanks! ------------------ -87 GT, K&N, 5-speed, Walker exhaust, no air silencer. timing 75000miles. (This vinter 3,55 and mac 15/8 and H-pipes and a Hurst shifter) 14,61 and 95,59mph

03-02-2001, 03:18 PM	#11
Dark Knight Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Az Posts: 854	arent yates heads pretty much the same as clev. heads? just tweaked to fit a 351w block and revised ports... you cant use a 351w intake with yates heads.. stock for stock, a 351c can be built to make way more HP than a 351w.. thats why they used to run them in pro stock and not the 351w.. the 351c cost alot more to produce..so they dropped it.. to bad.. just think what they could have done with 30 years of technology ;-) ------------------ 84 convt,'95 302,AFR's, performer 3.55's, underdrives stock shorties stock cam, 1.7's 14.16@100.08, 255RWHP on a hot day 265 on the mph/weight chart

03-07-2001, 12:26 AM	#12
MiracleMax Registered Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: Hayes, Va, USA Posts: 798	Yeah if your indicating that they are canted valve heads. They are similar to the cleveland heads, but with a big leap in airflow technology. Probably the greatest difference is in the exhaust port. Anybody remeber those port plates? they basically placed a shelf on the short side radius of the exhaust port on the clevland style head greatly improving exhuast port flow. I dunno what Ford was trying to do with the cleveland engine family? But it definetely wasn't somwthing to do with efficant head design. The 351 cleveland 4v was rated at 300 hp if I remeber correctly and for an engine that sports a seat of heads like the 351 cleveland, one would think that it had the potential to easily produce gobs more power that the factory could have taken advantage of.