351W or 460 ?
 

Okay, I'm trying to decide, I've got an 84 4 cyl hatch that's stipped down to almost nothing. It's either getting a 460 or a 351W. Which one should I get? Tell me all of your thoughts and feelings. I am having trouble seeing the point in going with a 460 because I'm not going for an all out drag car, I don't want to tub it yet, I don't even really want to have put a cage in it yet either (although eventually I will probably) Anyway, what do you guys think?
Here are some picks of the car. This was before it was stipped down so there are still seats and stuff in it. It's going to get an LX spoiler and 87 LX taillights. Keeping the front end the way it is (stock 84) And eventually i'll paint it. if you want, check out http://students.ou.edu/B/Michael.C.Black-1/ for some more stuff about the car.
http://students.ou.edu/B/Michael.C.B...tang/rear1.jpg
http://students.ou.edu/B/Michael.C.B...g/painted1.jpg

Tell me what you think!!! Thanks.

Go with the 351W. Lighter, easier and cheaper to put in then a 460

460!!..
or bigger.. a 514 stroker kit is about the same price as a 408 kit for a 351
http://fordifiedracing.homestead.com/bigblockfox.html

if you want it to handle good too, get a 347 stroker..

351 stroked out to a 408. With a 460 you can't even run power brakes anymore, engine is too wide. 351 swap parts are readily available too. Parts are also cheaper and more available. Just my $.02 ~Brian

double post:rolleyes:

That's the same reason I went with the 351W instead of the 460. I really considered a 460 or 429 b4 I started building the '79. In the end, I finally concluded with a 351W. Obviously, that is what I suggest for you. I think you'll be happier in the end with the 5.8. Biggest doesn't always equate to best.

I'd for sure go with a 351W. Parts are way cheaper and easier to find.

P.S. Long time no see. What happened to da Couger?

Aww com on guys.. Easier, Cheaper ( I can understand that point a little ) but yes you can run power brakes.... Dollar for Dollar yo uwill not make the same power with any n/a small block as you will with a big block. Buy a Old thunderbird with a factory 365 horse dove headed 460 in it. Slap in a factory cobra jet ca, Aluminum intake and headers and you've got 450 horse for less than $1000 bucks... Tell me where you can build a 408 to make that power for that money. Dont get me wrong here' im not trying to bad mouth you guys in any way shape or form, Heck Im runnin a small block now. Just because I wrecked my daily driver ( 90 lx 5.0 ) car. .If I had my choice I would have a big block any day of the week. I know more about the 460's than I do the small blocks. Im partial, but Im tellin ya you can drive a 460 car on teh road every day of the week and have hella fun with it to..

Bradley

I don't want to argue; but because I live in Canada it is way to much money to put a 460 in a mustang( believe me I have tried).

To get the motor mounts its $375.00Canadian
Headers are $550.00
Oil Pan used with oil pump is $150.00
And that is just to get the motor in, then with performance parts.

I don't know how it is in the states, but were I live it is hell of alot cheaper to put in a 351w. Sure a big block does have alot of torque, but look at the weight of the beast(it like a boat anchor). If you choose the 460 it better be a straight line performer.

Good Luck whatever you choose

Thanks a bunch guys for the suggestions. The cougar I had is wrecked. Yeah, it was my fault so I'll just leave that alone. Anyway, I bought it back from the insurance company and sold it for a pretty penny. So I've got some money to build up this 84. So far, I think what I want to do is put in an 8.8 rear, and either a 351W and T5 (or tremec maybe) or 460 (by the way, what manual trannies will bolt up to a 460?) and then maybe put a cage in it and take it to the strip and tear it up. I was thinking I could have a 12 second car pretty easily cause it's stipped down like a mutha. I'll get some pics of the interior, but it really is just sheet metal. Pulled the sound deadening rubber also. Anyway, I'm going to a swap meet here in a couple days, so i guess if I see an engine there that catches my eye, I'll go with that. As far as the whole 460 or 351W deal, I don't care about power brakes, and I could even deal with having to buy or fabricate some engine mounts, but the weight and the cost of the parts for the 460 really worries me. I mean I could get a cheap 460 pretty quick, but it'd be out of a truck or something and wouldn't make must power. I figure I'd have to spend a bit to make the 460 make the power it should. I think the 351W would be fairly easy to make the power it should, even though it's not near what the 460 could make. At least, that's what I figure. Anyway, thanks for the help again guys.

For a manual transmission you can get a big block pattern top loader four speed or Richmond's five or six speeds( six speed is the overdrive transmission).

If I were to go with the 460 swap I would choose the C6 automatic, because their is a billion of them out their. And they can take all the power you can throw at it.

Good Luck

Where I live, there's three guys with 460's in their cars. The swaps didn't cost too much money. No more than a 351 swap would. You just have to know where to find parts.

That said, 460, all the way. Trust me, a 351 would need heads, cam, intake plus a stroker to feel close to a 460. That's why the truism is "There's no replacement for displacement." Weigh what you need to get for either swap, including motors and work out a budget, then do what ever is the easiest in that sense. Not in what will fit and what won't because both will fit, both will keep the brakes, etc... Hope that helps.

A truck motor would be more desireable. They have beter rods that i've seen personally go to over 500 horse and turn over 7500 many many many many times. In the pulling truck teams I work with there are several turcks runnin the factory truck rods and having great luck out of them. They are also runnin factory cranks ( not even steel cranks, Just cast ) and turning them to over 8500 most every pass down the track. So really the only money you would be out would be for heads, intake and cam. Or you could buy a factory efi 460 out of a truck. The heads on those motors flow better than any out of hte box aftermarket cast or aluminum head. Now a ported aftermarket head will obviosly flow more but not box stock. Now I bet your wondering about the intake for the efi motored heads.. Ahh Dont fret. Edelbrock makes a carb intake to put onto a motor with those heads PROBLEM SOLVED:D :D. that is just my opinion on it all though, you do what you want. I m just trying to let you see its not as costly as most people think. Cheap power is cubic inches plain and simple.

Bradley

http://fordifiedracing.homestead.com...LeeSenior2.jpg
Lee Senior, Pennsylvania
1985 7.5L GT
71 460, D0VE heads, A/C, PS, PB, CC
11.84 @ 114mph, 7.54 @ 91 mph, N/A

460 with power brakes in a fox :D

and a mild engine too.. AND.. the standard 2 bolt 460 block is good for 600HP..

you might also talk to Kidott at stangnet... he has a 429 in his car..

my 83 393 W went 7.50's at 101 mph in the 1/8 th, off the trailer, first pass, with alot left in it. Still have the 7.5 rear and needs a tranny and a posi and a good carb. I babied it out of the hole. So there are some hard numbers for you to ponder. Your 460 mustang will be so unbalanced (i.e. nose heavy), all of the weight will be over your front tires, not necessary the best thing, and it will handle like a pig.

I hope this is usefull in helping you decide.


429

Horsepower

320@4400rpm(2v)
345@4600rpm(4v)
360@5800rpm(cj)
370@5400rpm(cj)
375@5600rpm(scj)
(1969-71)
208@4400rpm(4v)
(1972-sae net)
202@4400rpm(4v)
(1973-sae net)


Torque

450@2200rpm(2v)
460@2800rpm(4v)
476@2800rpm(cj)
450@3400rpm(cj)
450@3400rpm(scj)
(1969-71)
322@2600rpm(4v)
(1972-73 sae net)


460

Horsepower

224@4400rpm(4v)


Torque

357@2800rpm


351W

Horsepower

138@3200rpm(2v)
(1980 sae net)
165@3200rpm(vv)
(1981 sae net)
140@3400rpm(2v)
(1982-83 sae net)
180@3600rpm(vv)
(1984-92 sae net)
200@3800rpm(efi)
(1993-98 sae net)
240@4200rpm(efi)
(1993-96 lightning)

Torque

355@2600rpm(2v)
385@3200rpm(4v)
(1969-70)
350@2600rpm(2v)
(1971)
276@2000rpm(2v)
(1972 sae net)
246@2400rpm(2v)
(1973 sae net)
275@2200rpm(2v)
(1974sae net)
255@2200rpm(2v)
(1975-76 sae net)
266@2000rpm(2v)
(1977 sae net)
275@2200rpm(2v)
(1978-79 sae net)
286@1400rpm(vv)
260@2200rpm(2v)
(1980 sae net)
270@1800rpm(vv)
(1981 sae net)
265@2000rpm(2v)
(1982-83 sae net)
285@2400rpm(2v)
(1984-92 sae net)
310@2800rpm(efi)
(1993-98 sae net)
340@3200rpm(efi)
(1993-96 lightning)

These numbers are for a stock engine from the factory

for the amount of money you have in those vic jr heads, you can build a 460 with the same power level.. and you wont have to spin it over 6000 rpm..

and a tubbed drag car isnt going to handle good anyway... :D

Id go 351W. You said you didnt want an all out drag car and the only reason i can see with putting a 460 in it would be for a drag car. That heavy 460 would make the car handle like crap IMO

I would go with a 460. There is no replacement for displacemant. The added weight will be made up for. I just happen to have seen a 460 for sale.

More than that with a girdle and hard block..

yeah, but you start to get cap walk at the higher HP numbers with the 460... unless you pin the caps or convert to 4 bolt.. which is pretty easy :-)

buddy turns his 8600 in the pulling truck ( loaded all the time ) not just under a load when racing ..... and all he has is hard block and a main cap.

Bradley

I say go for the 460 as well, I am going to stroke my current setup to 331, but I have 2 bolt bare 460 on the engine stand in the garage that has my eye......once I win the lottery. But until then it motivates me to get a better paying job...:D

I don't remember who just started making them, but there are bellhousings available for Tremecs to bolt up to almost any engine (big blocks, other makes, etc.), I don't think it's lake wood though. Anyway, I have a 429 sitting at a machine shop in Ohio if your interested, I have the swap pan/oil pump/pickup, victor 4150 intake, Polished Ford Racing Valve covers, fuel pump, and a few other parts. The motor was started at the shop ( disassembled, cleaned, maybe bored .030), I need to find hoe far it's been machined so far. Anyway, if anyones interested let me know, it's a 1970 429 with (i think) C9VE heads, it was out of a T-bird and should have around 11-1 comp with stock pistons.

Would you sell the intake? You mean Victor like Edelbrock Victor intake?? I have a friend who is very interested in a Victor intake and I would get his old one.

Thanks
Bradley

I definitely want to sell it, I still owe the machine shop some money and then I can get all the parts/motor back to sell. I'll probably be picking everything up in a week or two, then I'll be ready to ship out anything I can sell so let me know if they're interested. It is an Edelbrock Victor 4150 (not dominator), it's about 6" high, it's pretty bada*s. It's brand new, I paid $300 for it and I'd like to get around $240 for it.

351 vs 429/460
 

let's look at all the options here, okay let's get this out the way first, "there is no replacement for displacement" sometimes. LOL

Me personally I like the stroked 351 route, you have plenty of cylinder heads to choose from, headers,oil pans, so on so forth that you can pretty much walk into any of your local speed shops and buy, heck even some Kragen's you might get lucky. A 351 can easily be mistaken for a 302 by a lot of hammerheads out there who drive Camaros Firebird and rice rockets.

Advantage of the 429/460 unbelieveable torque that will always be there, the first time I ever drove a small block with a stroker kit, I could not get over the torque it had, so if this 8.2 deck had crazy torque, then i am sure a 429/460 has mad torque.

You are going to need a lot of custom parts to put that 429/460 in a Fox Body, it can be done they sell kits now a day's for that swap but you better upgrade the front suspension so it does not bottom out, food for thought.

Me personally I like the stroked 351 route,there are so many options for running a stroked Windsor especially if you get a FRPP W block or a Dart block.

This post is resurrected huh? Well, I figure I'll add to it again.

A good friend of mine did a swap. From a Vic Jr headed 408 to a slightly worked 460. Slightly meaning ported DOVE heads, edelbrock intake, FRPP cam (not sure on specs) and went from a Tremec to a C-6. Kept the rest of the car the same except for front springs to help offset the weight. It handles exactly the same as it did with the 408 (On the street). He went from 12.1 at 114 (with the 408) to an 11.78 at 116 (with the 460). He only runs on slicks at the track too.

If you need to save money, then doing a 351 swap is cheaper, but a 429/460 is not too expensive either. Its all upto you in how you want your car to react and feel.

So IMO, do the 460, its worth it in the end. There are tons of parts available cheaply, and power isn't as expensive as many people may have you believe. IMO, big block.

not trying to start a flame war
 

not trying to start a flame war but only 2 mph and 3 tenths? it should have been a bigger gain that that, a lot bigger.

90GT398,
I agree, it should have been, but remember, he had a Victor Jr. headed 408 that made serious power to a relatively mild 460. He plans on Blue Thunder heads in the future. He reused the carb from the 408, some 750cfm Demon carb (not sure on the specs). How is a 1.9 60' for 11.78 sound? Compared to a 1.68 for a 12.1? His M/T's are worn, so thats a future consideration for him too. No flames here, so no worries.

In street trim, the 408 wasn't the most pleasant to drive through town, but the 460 is a lot more forgiving that way. (Not a wild setup yet, that's why).

IMO, I think the suspension needs a bit of tweaking, and new slicks to help the traction.



Back to the original post, Quantum, do what fits your budget best, and enjoy it. A 351W swap will work fine, and produce tons of power, so will a 460. It all depends on what you want.

not really... a built 408 vs. a mild 460? bet the 460 idles smoother..

and parts for a 460 arent any more expensive than a small block..
stroker kits are about the same.. heads are close too... set of AFR 205's or canfields arent much less than a set of blue thunder or FRPP heads.. and there's talk of making a set of iron copies of the new SCJ head..:D

BTW, the 460 is smaller in size than a 4.6... go figure

FWIW, I debated on a 347 and the big block.. but at the power levels I want, a 302 block wouldnt last.. the 460 will...

bigger IS better ;)

oops... I need to type faster :D

Thanks for all of the input guys. I suppose I should have told you guys that I decided to go with building up a 302. It's just a lot easier. I got the short block for free and am having machine work done on it, getting it back today actually. Bored .030 over with TRW forged flat toppers with valve reliefs. Stock rods, stock crank, all reworked. New everything. I guess my combo will be mild compared to some, but it will be a definate low budget project that will turn some heads when i'm done. I'm just going with GT40P heads (found some for $150 that need valve job and springs) Weiand stealth intake, either a holley or edelbrock carb, don't know yet, somewhere in the range of 600-700 cfm. Comp cams 292H, MAC 1 5/8th long tubes, 40 series flows, normal rotation water pump (backwards from the fox body pumps) an alternator and a tiny crank pulley (3 inch race pulley), T5 tranny, FMS clutch kit, turbo coupe rear with 3.55s, QA1 motorsports tubular K member, plastic fuel cell, the rest of the car is stripped down bare. It may not be a badass ride, but it will be the fastest beater i've ever seen. I'll be sure and post some pics when i start putting it back together. The K member is in. This weekend I'm getting some front suspension parts (spindles, struts, and brakes from my old cougar, and new FMS a arms) and I'm also getting my old rear end that I put in, out of a turbo coupe. It'll be set up! Anyway, I'm getting the engine back today, so I'll post some pics of that too. Later.

Quantum,

Yup, that's why I didn't do a big block swap. Just easier to do a 302/306 and enjoy that for a while. Sounds like a neat setup, can't wait to see how it does at the track.


Dark Knight,

Yeah, when my brother got his 2000GT (Yellow Spring Feature Edition car), we looked at the 4.6 just to see, and wow.. It sure is a big (physical size) motor.

Well ive decided to go wit ha big block Mainly cause I got one free just need to upgrade to DOVE heads and victor intake. I figure I can swap to a set of DOVE heads, Stock cobra jet cam, and a good Torker I Ior Offy intake and get 450 horse.. 525 with the juice. I think that should be enough to boil the rice here.

Bradley