450 - 500 hp 302, all motor
 

I want to take a rebuilt stock short block and add aftermarket heads and cam and get 450 - 500 hp out of it.

I'm looking at 10:1 compression since this is going to be a daily driver and I'll be running 91 octane in it.

Which heads and cam should I get for this fuel injected '87 with a 5 speed and 3.27's?

Also, 24lb injectors and Mass Air? Or will the stock 19's and stock Mass Air cut it?

Will I need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, or just keep the stock one? What would I set the adjustable one too. I don't have access to a dyno, and I'm going to be installing all this stuff myself.

What about that stock intake? Will it be up to task? If not, which aftermarket one will be needed?

And the in tank fuel pump? Will the stock pump be enough or will I need a 155 or 190? If so, which one?

Thanks for any help you can provide. I'm looking forward to building this car up.

Ok... 450-500 hp you say? thats reaching the limit for the stock 302 block itself... but it should suffice granted you dont pound on it too hard. Now the rotating assembly would need to be upgraded to forged pistions and h beam rods if you want it to last a while. To get that much hp you would definately need to upgrade your fuel system. Adj. Regulatr, 155 lph pump, 24-30 lb injectors also... preferably 30. You could get buy with a cobra intake...but it really depends on what rpm range that you want the most power to come from. A larger TB and Maf would make the hp come a bit easier as well. Now heads...i have my heart set on AFR heads myself...have been hearng good things about them, but holley or edlebrock have great heads as well. Cams can be tricky... but you should be able to go to a performance shop and list the combination that you want and what you want your beast to be for and they can suggest a good cam for the job. OR you can start reaserching and learn about all the stuff yourself and make it that much more fun and feel prouder of the car and what you've accomplished with your own effort. Have fun.

Won't a stock short block be able to handle ~10:1 compression and the RPM at no more then 6000?

So a 155lph fuel pump should be able to handle it with no need for a 190?

If I got 30lb injectors, what would I set the fuel pressure too?

I was just looking at the cobra intake since it seems to be the cheapest aftermarket intake. What about one of those short and compact intakes? These big ones get in the way of doing work on the motor.

Can I run heads with 2.02 or 2.08 intake valves, or will they hit the piston? I'll get the 1.90's then if so.

It looks like AFR only has heads with 58cc and 64cc combustion chambers.

54 = 9.8:1 ?
58 = 9.4:1 ?

Aren't stock heads 61 or 65? I don't want to have to pay any more to get the heads milled after I've already shelled out ~$1200 if I can avoid it.

Wait wait wait.

Come back to reality here.
Were talking 300-350 hp.

If thats what you want then I, and many others here can help you out. Your dreaming right now though. Sorry.

Skyler

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-1989 Saleen Mustang #406-
TFS Heads, E-303 Cam, Edelbrock Intake, and a whole lot more.
13.2@106mph
-Shooting for 12's and a 351 slowly in the works!

Stock-94 Integra 15.48@91mph

http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...oard/smile.gif

300-350 hp just seems low too me for a 10:1 motor, any choice of heads, cam and a 6000rpm limit.


Maybe 400 - 450 then?

If I can't get hardly anymore out of the engine then what's stock, then I might have to look into just leaving it stock and get maybe a Paxton or a Kenne-Bell. The Kenne-Bell would be nice because it would replace the sorry stock intake in the process.

I want a simple, compact, and self contained super charger. No FMU, external fuel pump, or anything else.

Just the blower if that's what it's going to be. I still think that going all motor would be cheaper though and maybe get the same or better results?

I'm a minimalist when it comes to cars. http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...oard/smile.gif

I like to get the most out of the least.

Looks expensive though.
http://www.kenne-bell.com/Owners/JohnShurey/engine.jpg
If I could get the same or more just from the motor, I'd rather go all motor.

I'd be highly disappointed if I had all that and that was all I was getting out of it. Maybe I have unrealistic goals and I over estimate the hardware and it's capabilities?

your not going to make that kind of power with the parts you are asking about! stop dreaming!

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93-LX: 5 Speed, Flow's with H-Pipe, 3.73's Sub's and K&N.

You should talk to a pro engine builder. 450-500 is way too much to expect with that set up. Check out this site www.golensengineservice.com see what the're using to make 450-500. Give them a call or e-mail if you have questions about the custom projects they do. I'm trying to save some money and have them build a 450hp 351. Good luck with the motor!

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1995 GT Black sleeper
Edelbrock 6037 heads,Edelbrock proformer intake,Edelbrock cam, 70mm TB,75mm pro-m mass air,Taylor wires, Underdrive pulleys,Equal length headers,K&N filter
Flowmaster cat-back, Eibach pro rate springs
lower control arms
3.73 gear Centerforce clutch

I'm sorry, but I don't think you have any clue how much horse power that is.

Have you ever ridden in a 12 second car? A 13 second car?

My car makes around 330-340hp and everyone that rides in it goes holy **** this thing is fast.

225 is stock so 350 is 125hp more. Thats a huge difference. Your just going by numbers, I dont think you have any real world experience about what any of these are.

A 10:1 compression motor with good heads and 6000rpm limit should get you around 350hp, maybe a little more, properly setup right.

With a power adder on your stock engine you'd be lucky to see about 330-340hp, and the engines going to be a lot less reliable.

Skyler

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-1989 Saleen Mustang #406-
TFS Heads, E-303 Cam, Edelbrock Intake, and a whole lot more.
13.2@106mph
-Shooting for 12's and a 351 slowly in the works!

Stock-94 Integra 15.48@91mph

I plan on having 400 at the Fywheel this spring, I'll post my dyno numbers after I go. I know a guy who has a 306, Stage II TFS TW heads, Holley intake, 30#, 75mm TB, 80mm Pro-M , Anderson Cam, Powerpipe, pullies and has 347RWHP (405 FLYWHEEL) I have the dyno sheet. The car has 4:30's, SSM upper/lowers, stock front suspension and it goes 11.30's @ 119 NA. Whay would you need more? Low 11's is fast, I agree until you have been in a car the pulls the wheels and goes low 12's or 11's you don'r realize how fast that is. A NA motor that goes that fast is border line for the street, I also am looking to get the most out of what I got, I am hoping for solid 11's this year and 400 FLYWHEEL HP. I don't think much more is possible, with out reving to 7000+ which a stock bottom end 302 will not take.

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My Ride Check Out My Site 91GT, Holley SysteMAX II Kit-Heads 2.02" x 1.60",Full MAC exhaust 1-5/8" Long tubes, 2-1/2" O.R H-Pipe, 2 1/2" cat back, 12" K&N Filter, RNH PERFORMANCE Ram Air, Ron Davis Radiator, Full Suspension,3:73's, Welds, Best on new motor-12.60 @ 108, no traction 1.98

[This message has been edited by Rick 91GT (edited 02-20-2001).]

450-500hp for a NA 302 is little optimistic, save that kind of efficiency to those stupid little hondas.

Here's a combo from MM&FF 12-00

Stock short block (notched pistons for clearance)
Cam-Comp Cams XE282 (.565, .575)
Heads-AFR 185's milled for 10.5:1 compression
Intake-TFS-R-302
70mm throttle body
77mm Mass air
24 lb. injectors
1 3/4 in. full length headers

That combo made:
423 hp@6000rpm
381 lb-ft@5600rpm

I think you'd be hard pressed to do much better, if at all. This is one Bad A$$ engine? Remeber, thats @ flywheel with no water pump, accessories, etc. Sorry to burst your bubble.

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Umm.. I know a lot of people that push 450-500hp out of a stock bottom end. They've all lived for about 3 passes and cracked the blocks or had some major problem with the main caps walking even with a stud girdle.

If you want to do it, there is no real inexpensive way to make that kind of power. Get a 4 bolt main block to start with, and H-beam rods, forged flat top pistons, and a real heavy duty crank. Then worry about heads/cam/intake. Oh yeah, if its N/A wouldn't you have to rev a 302 to like 7,000 or so to make that power?

The Cobra intake will never support more than 400hp. I can't see it happening with heads under 2.02 either.

If you want 450-500hp N/A the only 302 that could do it reliably is the Boss motor. My uncle has a '69 Boss 302, when he had his engine in for assembly in OK the guy actually had another one on the dyno shortly before. The compression was dropped from 11.5:1(or 13:1, can't remember) to 8.5:1 with dished pistons so he could run low octane pump gas. It had the stock cam, '70 heads with the smaller 2.19" intake valves as opposed to 2.21" in '69. It rated at 368hp and 340lb/ft. Stock they were good for 400hp, and with a cam, some port work and tuning they should make 500hp, the 5.0HO will not see 500 N/A without being wigged out beyond belief. The stock block would be very questionable at that hp level as well. I'd question the cranks too. The HO's are rated to about 450hp. The Boss block can take 600hp no prob.

I do disagree with the supercharger on a stock motor being any less reliable than a N/A car making 340hp. As long as it sits under 9psi I haven't seen a whole lot of complaints from the squeeze users. An 8psi unit with GT-40 irons, mild cam, Cobra intake and roller rockers should make damn close to 400hp and be reliable.

Also worth noting is an 87 has no mass air sensor. You'll need to convert cause you're asking for some mondo power, 88workcar is a guru on SD, but I think even he is at it's limits running low 12's N/A.

low to mid 400 range i can see and a lil bit more with a carb but thats about it..the stock block can handle 550hp for extended times and 650(with rods, pistons and steel crank) for very short amount

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1987 black notch(ex 4 banger)
DSS 306 w/ main support...Elderbrock 6028 heads..gt-40 intake..24# injectors...70 mm tb..77 pro-m...accel 300+..mac full legnth..tremec w/ pro5oh...full MAC exhaust,off road h-pipe,long tubes, catback...ron davis radiator..subframes, control arms...CFDF II..o yea holley FPR sucks..dont buy one..

Hey unit, i know the cobra intake claims it can support 400hp, but what about if it's extrude honed, and portmatched to some good heads?

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90 lx coupe: Mac cold air fenderwell, accel supercoil,advncd ignition,3-core radiatr, FMS alum D/S, Black magic fan, 3.27grs, 3chbr flows.
Best time: 13.9116(on 225/60/15 firehawks)
Best mph: 97.80
Best 60': 2.0047

next mods: subframes, mac h-pipe

400 can happen, but its not very streetable. 75mm TB kills low end torque, and 4.30 gears suck crap for the freeway.

Look how many guys are under 300rwhp HP on this board with aluminum heads.

Im going to put in a 351 soon, and I'm going with 11:1 compression, and I'm shooting for 410hp with my heads, a TFS351 intake and some sort of custom cam.

Skyler

------------------
-1989 Saleen Mustang #406-
TFS Heads, E-303 Cam, Edelbrock Intake, and a whole lot more.
13.2@106mph
-Shooting for 12's and a 351 slowly in the works!

Stock-94 Integra 15.48@91mph

Is that 351 with 11:1 compression going to be a daily driver running pump gas?

If you want a daily driver with 400+ hp on pump gas, maybe look into an Incon twin turbo kit. Almost a bolt-on ordeal also.

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1991 LX Hatch 5.0L

I'm going to need to rebuild my motor though in the near future because of high miles.

All motor would be cheaper then getting that twin turbo kit. Plus turbos get too hot in the summer when it's 100 degree's out and I have to drive ~20 miles to work every day in that heat. The twin turbo's make the car hell to work on and I don't want to have to install them. Changing my spark plugs or changing out the header gaskets with it looking like this?

http://www.turbodrivenconcepts.com/bigimages/93-one.jpg

I can pick up a rebuilt shortblock fairly cheap. Just need a good set of aftermarket heads and a cam. Pick up an intake when I find one. 30lb injectors, and the required mass air, 155 or 190lph intank pump.

Shorty headers, hi flow cat X pipe, FlowMaster cat back.

Run this T5 till it blows up, and 3.27's.

Can I expect 11's out of that combo, or "just" 12's? http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...oard/smile.gif

Take a look at my dyno sheet in my signature. This is reality. I realize more cam, a better intake and 1 3/4" headers would get me more but 450-500, I doubt it!

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88 347, Twisted wedge heads,Comp Cams 224/230 cam, 1/4=10.718 @ 123.02 mph,dyno= http://www.fbody.com/members/LarryS/mustdyno.jpg

[This message has been edited by 8850 (edited 02-21-2001).]

That's amazing that your running 10's with that much power.

I think Skyman was right when he said that I 'don't have any clue how much horsepower that is'.

I have rode in and driven 11, 12, and 13 second cars before, but we could only imagine how much power they were making since these cars have never been on a dyno before.

I'm now looking to build a 300-350 horsepower motor since 450-500 seems unattainable using a rebuilt stock shortblock and some aftermarket heads, cam, and intake.

450-500 horse power all motor on a 5.0....
Yea, like mine

What do you have?

like everyone said.. not happening. you are talking a solid roller motor setup here with some high dollar internals and a 4bolt main with all the whips to spin that kind of rpm.

you would be hard pressed to pull peak 340rwtq out of a 302 with street gas n/a. you are looking at 400-450rwhp here. even with an average torque curve you would have to peak HP at ~6800 to make 400rwhp. to make 450rwhp with a tad more tq at peak you are looking at a ~7400rpm peak. it would probably need to wind out past 8k. definitely roller territory.

look for a very well built 302 to make ~340rwhp and around 320rwtq on street gas.

sky,

look how many of them are running tiny cams and ~9:1 compression also.

Let's take a stock shortblock and some 54cc heads and some cam.

What is the most we can expect to get out of it?

Take a look at my sig. and see what parts out of my buddys garage got me.The car weight is 3080 w/driver.The stang analyzer showed 324rwhp N/A with the five speed.I put a c4 and a cone 3500 stall in since.The car went 12.60 @ 106 N/A and 11.21 @ 116 on 150 shot (burnt 3 plugs by 900-1000ft).

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85 capri,balanced .030 over 79 302,windage tray polished/weight matched rods w/arp bolts.63 289 heads port/polish with FMS windsor springs. Torker 289 intake,514 solidcam,1.6rr.mac long tubes,off-road h,and pro dumps.T-5`4.10's on auburn HD carrier.NOS CHEATER kit,pullies and plenty more.Best NA run
1.683 60ft 7.837 @ 87 12.353 @ 109.05
NOS,11.21@ 116 1.49 60ft

Do they still make that Torker intake?

That's the one where the carburator sits at an angle right?

Your setup runs real good there, but 106mph with a 3000lb car isnt near 320rwhp. Its probably near 275.

My car is near 3500lbs race weight and I pulled 106 trap and I know I probably dont have 300rwhp.

Shoot for 300-350 and you'll be very happy.. With those heads I think you'll see 10.5 or 11:1 compression, I dont know for sure. That should get you around 320rwhp. That will be fast as hell.

Skyler

------------------
-1989 Saleen Mustang #406-
TFS Heads, E-303 Cam, Edelbrock Intake, and a whole lot more.
13.2@106mph
-Shooting for 12's and a 351 slowly in the works!

Stock-94 Integra 15.48@91mph

If your going to build a 450-500 hp engine with upgraded parts, why not go with a stroker motor. All things being equal, using the 423 hp motor listed above, then adding another 47 cubes oughta get you into the 450 hp territory maybe a little higher. Optimistically it would put you in the 480 hp range?

450 hp engine

347 stroker assy.
77mm Mass-Air meter
75 mm T-body
Edelbrock Victor 5.0 (or Ported Performer RPM)
AFR 185cc heads
Comp Cams 280+ Extreme Energy (or Nitrous HP, go figure when I contacted CC about just such an engine with AFR's published airflow figures they suggested the biggest Nitrous HP cam in the 5.0 hydraulic roller section)
11:1 c/r (fuel injection, aluminum heads, 180 deg thermostat, and good radiator might make it possiblem, then again it might be entirely possible because I have a 10:1 iron head motor using 92-93 octane with a carb and a moderate duration cam with 278 degrees of advertised duration)
1-3/4 long tubes
30-36 pound injectors

Really the question is where do you want to make 450-500 hp. If you can spin the bugger high enough and keep cylinder pressure from falling of then it could make the power. But in the realm of hydraulic roller engines, your probably gonna be stuck at around 6500-7000 rpm. Which will take big time mid to high rpm torque to accomplish. Say you want 450 hp at 6000 rpm, that'll take 394 foot pounds of torque at 6000 rpm to accomplish, at 5000 rpm your looking at 473 foot pounds of torque. For a 347 to make 400 foot pounds of torque at 6000 rpm, your looking at an engine that has to be in the vicinity of 100%+ volumetric efficency, naturally aspirated.

When I get mine done, I'll get back to this post http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...oard/smile.gif

Why not just build a stroker 351W? My 418 (Eagle kit), just made 572.6 HP @ 6400 rpm, & 517 ft. lbl TQ @ 5200. (with old victor jr. intake). Now has super victor.

We've got guys in T/S making 350RWHP+ with GT-40P heads (unported), GT-40 intakes, shorty and .500" cams. One has susposedly made 378RWHP in carbureted form. It doesn't take an expensive motor to do it. Last years champ did it on stock block (+0.030), stock crank and rods, with TRW replacement pistons. No fancy lightened cranks, polished rods, none of that. Now if he's making 350RWHP, that would be in excess of 400 at the crank.

If you're talking 347 with AL heads, .560" cam, LT headers and Edelbrock intake and you can't make 450HP from it, then something's wrong. Careful selection of parts and good tuning should get you there real easy. The tuning is the tough part. It takes time, runs at the track or dyno, and some money but as the forty-niners used to say..."There's horsepower in that there engine!"

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Jeff Chambers
Trophy Stock #3
11.97 Seconds / 114.5 MPH
Chambers Racing Team

Jeff-yeah but what kind of compression is that top guy making? 13-14:1?

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1988 GT-under construction

Considering we've got to have flat-top pistons, PV becomes the issue. I'll tell you that right around 12:1 is a pretty good figure. Its not outlandish compression like you see with the hot-street/bandit motors, but its definitely better than stock :^o I've run mine on pump 94 around town without any problem, but most of the time I've got some race fuel in it adding some octane. I know a guy who runs his 12.7:1 347 motor as a driver, changes to slicks at the track, puts 300HP squirts to it and runs low nines. Then puts the street tires back on it and drives it home! My whole point was that with the kind of mods you guys are talking about you shouldn't have one bit of trouble getting well past 450HP.

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Jeff Chambers
Trophy Stock #3
11.97 Seconds / 114.5 MPH
Chambers Racing Team

Juiced 12.7:1 347 cu in low 9 second car that is not considered a street car because of the class he races in...but because it actually gets driven on the street sometimes-that's cool. I agree with you though-450 is defifnitely not out of the question for a 306-the question about comp ratio was actually more of a personal question for when I see you guys in Cordova and possibly Ennis, I'll know a little more about what I'm competing with... :-)

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1988 GT-under construction

Hah, pessimism is a virtue. My virtual dyno predicts 480 hp with this combination of parts. However I reserve judgement until I can get this sucker finished and find somebody who can dyno the engine.

800 cfm T-body (whay can't they rate them like this! I've seen 75mm t-bodies flow 780-840 cfm)
Sequential Fire Intake (I'm guessing this is similar to a Vic 5.0 or a Performer RPM EFI)
ARP 185 cc heads
11.0:1 comp
Comp Cams Nitrous HP hydraulic roller 35-560-8
347 cid engine
small-tube headers (closest model to a set of 1-3/4 dia pipes)
Anywhosit it makes 480hp @ 6000 rpm and 470 ft'lbs. of torque at 4500 rpm.

This would be nice but I'm highly skeptical because the program can have about a 10% error (which with my luck would be 50 hp lower http://www.mustangworks.com/interact...oard/smile.gif )

I want to build the 455 HP motor on this page: http://www.airflowresearch.com/ford_dyno.htm

On this page: http://www.compcams.com/catalog/156_157.html

It's says that 282 cam needs a EEC IV upgrade. What would that consist of?

How would the car run with just the stock computer and that cam?

the eeciv upgrade is the fms rpm extender to go past 6250 fact. rev limit

thinking your gonna make anywhere these numbers w/box stock cobra intake and shortie headers is plain crazy.

the numbers you want will require-
11:1 compression
heads capable of flowing 300/220 or preferably more, 1.94 valve is fine
1 3/4 longtubes
holley intake(or tfs but holley better choice)
the 282xe'll get ya there as will tfs stage 3 cam
solid roller, A4block, stud girdle, box intake, and 12.5-13.5:1 comp and 7500rpm shifts are what it'll take to break 500hp

be realistic, a GT40 crate motor will never make these numbers if god cams it, and w/3.27 gears, you just have know idea of what it takes to be 11secquick at the strip

be realistic, optimism is good, but there ain't a gasket kit worth 100hp

How did they build that 455hp motor? I want a motor like that.

Can't I just run the same heads and cam as them with a Holley or TFS intake and get about the same as them?

Just follow the AFR engine dyno, but use the victor 5.0 intake or somethin similar to it. Those HP numbers possibly indicate that the AFR heads flow better than Westech had shown? Thats what I used to plug into my sim dyno?

Anyways, 280 cfm will support upto 540 hp if put together right.

300 cfm is kinda high IMO for that kind of power. To me thats like using a bozooka to waste a cockroach. 300 cfm will do the trick but your torques gonna suffer.

http://www.alternativeauto.com/cars/dan_sweeney.html

i gotta agree. looking at this guys budget 280cfm heads will be probably overkill using 30x ci and a stock or budget bottom end.

if he build a solid 34x ci motor using i could see him using some 280-300cfm heads reasonably with hydraulics.

damn only 106mph n/a? exgmguy has a weight right around there and goes 4-5mph faster with like 50+ less rwhp.

heh cone stall? coan?

http://www.summitracing.com/tech/how...s/347graph.jpg
http://www.summitracing.com/tech/how...roker5_347.htm http://www.summitracing.com/tech/lin...x_stroker5.htm

[This message has been edited by rtz (edited 03-08-2001).]

How about a 500 plus HP, 289..N/A that will last. Just go to www.cobraautomotive.com/horsepower.htm all at 10.5 Compression ratio. I wonder what they could do with a 302. But you have to spin it.

Ron

[This message has been edited by Ron1 (edited 03-09-2001).]

That would be nice, and that would work, but I don't have the money to buy one outright. Whatever I get, it's going to have to be built from parts that I put together. And for cheap too.

Like a stock rebuilt shortblock. I'd put it together my self if it was all a matter of bolting it together and none of that measuring and cutting the rings to fit and what not. I might do it, but I don't think I could do it for cheaper then buying a rebuilt shortblock. Maybe I could though?

I was going to build another motor and drop it in on a weekend, and then keep my current one as a backup motor.

I just need a head/cam/intake combo that will give me the most out of a 302 bottom end.

if you are doing it yourself why not invest in a stroker kit. they aren't much, can be had for 1500 or less. as long as you stay n/a and reasonable rpms you will be fine with the stock block. you obviously wanted a lot of power, but your original goals were way off for your budget/setup. then you can run some good heads, keep a hydraulic cam and still make good power.