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Old 02-19-2001, 11:50 PM   #1 (permalink)
rtz
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Question 450 - 500 hp 302, all motor

I want to take a rebuilt stock short block and add aftermarket heads and cam and get 450 - 500 hp out of it.

I'm looking at 10:1 compression since this is going to be a daily driver and I'll be running 91 octane in it.

Which heads and cam should I get for this fuel injected '87 with a 5 speed and 3.27's?

Also, 24lb injectors and Mass Air? Or will the stock 19's and stock Mass Air cut it?

Will I need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, or just keep the stock one? What would I set the adjustable one too. I don't have access to a dyno, and I'm going to be installing all this stuff myself.

What about that stock intake? Will it be up to task? If not, which aftermarket one will be needed?

And the in tank fuel pump? Will the stock pump be enough or will I need a 155 or 190? If so, which one?

Thanks for any help you can provide. I'm looking forward to building this car up.
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Old 02-20-2001, 12:55 AM   #2 (permalink)
stockrodder
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Ok... 450-500 hp you say? thats reaching the limit for the stock 302 block itself... but it should suffice granted you dont pound on it too hard. Now the rotating assembly would need to be upgraded to forged pistions and h beam rods if you want it to last a while. To get that much hp you would definately need to upgrade your fuel system. Adj. Regulatr, 155 lph pump, 24-30 lb injectors also... preferably 30. You could get buy with a cobra intake...but it really depends on what rpm range that you want the most power to come from. A larger TB and Maf would make the hp come a bit easier as well. Now heads...i have my heart set on AFR heads myself...have been hearng good things about them, but holley or edlebrock have great heads as well. Cams can be tricky... but you should be able to go to a performance shop and list the combination that you want and what you want your beast to be for and they can suggest a good cam for the job. OR you can start reaserching and learn about all the stuff yourself and make it that much more fun and feel prouder of the car and what you've accomplished with your own effort. Have fun.
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Old 02-20-2001, 01:06 AM   #3 (permalink)
rtz
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Won't a stock short block be able to handle ~10:1 compression and the RPM at no more then 6000?

So a 155lph fuel pump should be able to handle it with no need for a 190?

If I got 30lb injectors, what would I set the fuel pressure too?

I was just looking at the cobra intake since it seems to be the cheapest aftermarket intake. What about one of those short and compact intakes? These big ones get in the way of doing work on the motor.

Can I run heads with 2.02 or 2.08 intake valves, or will they hit the piston? I'll get the 1.90's then if so.

It looks like AFR only has heads with 58cc and 64cc combustion chambers.

54 = 9.8:1 ?
58 = 9.4:1 ?

Aren't stock heads 61 or 65? I don't want to have to pay any more to get the heads milled after I've already shelled out ~$1200 if I can avoid it.
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Old 02-20-2001, 02:09 AM   #4 (permalink)
Skyman
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Wait wait wait.

Come back to reality here.
Were talking 300-350 hp.

If thats what you want then I, and many others here can help you out. Your dreaming right now though. Sorry.

Skyler

------------------
-1989 Saleen Mustang #406-
TFS Heads, E-303 Cam, Edelbrock Intake, and a whole lot more.
13.2@106mph
-Shooting for 12's and a 351 slowly in the works!

Stock-94 Integra 15.48@91mph
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Old 02-20-2001, 02:23 AM   #5 (permalink)
rtz
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300-350 hp just seems low too me for a 10:1 motor, any choice of heads, cam and a 6000rpm limit.


Maybe 400 - 450 then?

If I can't get hardly anymore out of the engine then what's stock, then I might have to look into just leaving it stock and get maybe a Paxton or a Kenne-Bell. The Kenne-Bell would be nice because it would replace the sorry stock intake in the process.

I want a simple, compact, and self contained super charger. No FMU, external fuel pump, or anything else.

Just the blower if that's what it's going to be. I still think that going all motor would be cheaper though and maybe get the same or better results?

I'm a minimalist when it comes to cars.

I like to get the most out of the least.
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Old 02-20-2001, 02:29 AM   #6 (permalink)
rtz
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Looks expensive though.

If I could get the same or more just from the motor, I'd rather go all motor.
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Old 02-20-2001, 02:40 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
"347 with Vic.Jrs, Tfs-r intake, it made 366 rwhp, 384 rwtq with my 15/8 shorties, and 2.5 off-road h-pipe"
http://www.corral.net/Forums/Forum1/HTML/058445.html
I'd be highly disappointed if I had all that and that was all I was getting out of it. Maybe I have unrealistic goals and I over estimate the hardware and it's capabilities?
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Old 02-20-2001, 06:38 AM   #8 (permalink)
lx mike
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your not going to make that kind of power with the parts you are asking about! stop dreaming!

------------------
93-LX: 5 Speed, Flow's with H-Pipe, 3.73's Sub's and K&N.
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Old 02-20-2001, 09:56 AM   #9 (permalink)
mustang17
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You should talk to a pro engine builder. 450-500 is way too much to expect with that set up. Check out this site www.golensengineservice.com see what the're using to make 450-500. Give them a call or e-mail if you have questions about the custom projects they do. I'm trying to save some money and have them build a 450hp 351. Good luck with the motor!

------------------
1995 GT Black sleeper
Edelbrock 6037 heads,Edelbrock proformer intake,Edelbrock cam, 70mm TB,75mm pro-m mass air,Taylor wires, Underdrive pulleys,Equal length headers,K&N filter
Flowmaster cat-back, Eibach pro rate springs
lower control arms
3.73 gear Centerforce clutch

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Old 02-20-2001, 01:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
Skyman
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I'm sorry, but I don't think you have any clue how much horse power that is.

Have you ever ridden in a 12 second car? A 13 second car?

My car makes around 330-340hp and everyone that rides in it goes holy **** this thing is fast.

225 is stock so 350 is 125hp more. Thats a huge difference. Your just going by numbers, I dont think you have any real world experience about what any of these are.

A 10:1 compression motor with good heads and 6000rpm limit should get you around 350hp, maybe a little more, properly setup right.

With a power adder on your stock engine you'd be lucky to see about 330-340hp, and the engines going to be a lot less reliable.

Skyler

------------------
-1989 Saleen Mustang #406-
TFS Heads, E-303 Cam, Edelbrock Intake, and a whole lot more.
13.2@106mph
-Shooting for 12's and a 351 slowly in the works!

Stock-94 Integra 15.48@91mph
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Old 02-20-2001, 01:20 PM   #11 (permalink)
Rick 91GT
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I plan on having 400 at the Fywheel this spring, I'll post my dyno numbers after I go. I know a guy who has a 306, Stage II TFS TW heads, Holley intake, 30#, 75mm TB, 80mm Pro-M , Anderson Cam, Powerpipe, pullies and has 347RWHP (405 FLYWHEEL) I have the dyno sheet. The car has 4:30's, SSM upper/lowers, stock front suspension and it goes 11.30's @ 119 NA. Whay would you need more? Low 11's is fast, I agree until you have been in a car the pulls the wheels and goes low 12's or 11's you don'r realize how fast that is. A NA motor that goes that fast is border line for the street, I also am looking to get the most out of what I got, I am hoping for solid 11's this year and 400 FLYWHEEL HP. I don't think much more is possible, with out reving to 7000+ which a stock bottom end 302 will not take.

------------------
My Ride Check Out My Site 91GT, Holley SysteMAX II Kit-Heads 2.02" x 1.60",Full MAC exhaust 1-5/8" Long tubes, 2-1/2" O.R H-Pipe, 2 1/2" cat back, 12" K&N Filter, RNH PERFORMANCE Ram Air, Ron Davis Radiator, Full Suspension,3:73's, Welds, Best on new motor-12.60 @ 108, no traction 1.98

[This message has been edited by Rick 91GT (edited 02-20-2001).]
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Old 02-20-2001, 02:46 PM   #12 (permalink)
weedwackerof2002
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450-500hp for a NA 302 is little optimistic, save that kind of efficiency to those stupid little hondas.

Here's a combo from MM&FF 12-00

Stock short block (notched pistons for clearance)
Cam-Comp Cams XE282 (.565, .575)
Heads-AFR 185's milled for 10.5:1 compression
Intake-TFS-R-302
70mm throttle body
77mm Mass air
24 lb. injectors
1 3/4 in. full length headers

That combo made:
423 hp@6000rpm
381 lb-ft@5600rpm

I think you'd be hard pressed to do much better, if at all. This is one Bad A$$ engine? Remeber, thats @ flywheel with no water pump, accessories, etc. Sorry to burst your bubble.

------------------
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Old 02-20-2001, 02:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
86GT
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Umm.. I know a lot of people that push 450-500hp out of a stock bottom end. They've all lived for about 3 passes and cracked the blocks or had some major problem with the main caps walking even with a stud girdle.

If you want to do it, there is no real inexpensive way to make that kind of power. Get a 4 bolt main block to start with, and H-beam rods, forged flat top pistons, and a real heavy duty crank. Then worry about heads/cam/intake. Oh yeah, if its N/A wouldn't you have to rev a 302 to like 7,000 or so to make that power?
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Old 02-20-2001, 04:27 PM   #14 (permalink)
Unit 5302
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The Cobra intake will never support more than 400hp. I can't see it happening with heads under 2.02 either.

If you want 450-500hp N/A the only 302 that could do it reliably is the Boss motor. My uncle has a '69 Boss 302, when he had his engine in for assembly in OK the guy actually had another one on the dyno shortly before. The compression was dropped from 11.5:1(or 13:1, can't remember) to 8.5:1 with dished pistons so he could run low octane pump gas. It had the stock cam, '70 heads with the smaller 2.19" intake valves as opposed to 2.21" in '69. It rated at 368hp and 340lb/ft. Stock they were good for 400hp, and with a cam, some port work and tuning they should make 500hp, the 5.0HO will not see 500 N/A without being wigged out beyond belief. The stock block would be very questionable at that hp level as well. I'd question the cranks too. The HO's are rated to about 450hp. The Boss block can take 600hp no prob.

I do disagree with the supercharger on a stock motor being any less reliable than a N/A car making 340hp. As long as it sits under 9psi I haven't seen a whole lot of complaints from the squeeze users. An 8psi unit with GT-40 irons, mild cam, Cobra intake and roller rockers should make damn close to 400hp and be reliable.

Also worth noting is an 87 has no mass air sensor. You'll need to convert cause you're asking for some mondo power, 88workcar is a guru on SD, but I think even he is at it's limits running low 12's N/A.
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Old 02-20-2001, 08:07 PM   #15 (permalink)
LX XLR8R
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low to mid 400 range i can see and a lil bit more with a carb but thats about it..the stock block can handle 550hp for extended times and 650(with rods, pistons and steel crank) for very short amount

------------------
1987 black notch(ex 4 banger)
DSS 306 w/ main support...Elderbrock 6028 heads..gt-40 intake..24# injectors...70 mm tb..77 pro-m...accel 300+..mac full legnth..tremec w/ pro5oh...full MAC exhaust,off road h-pipe,long tubes, catback...ron davis radiator..subframes, control arms...CFDF II..o yea holley FPR sucks..dont buy one..
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Old 02-20-2001, 09:18 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Hey unit, i know the cobra intake claims it can support 400hp, but what about if it's extrude honed, and portmatched to some good heads?

------------------
90 lx coupe: Mac cold air fenderwell, accel supercoil,advncd ignition,3-core radiatr, FMS alum D/S, Black magic fan, 3.27grs, 3chbr flows.
Best time: 13.9116(on 225/60/15 firehawks)
Best mph: 97.80
Best 60': 2.0047

next mods: subframes, mac h-pipe
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Old 02-20-2001, 09:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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400 can happen, but its not very streetable. 75mm TB kills low end torque, and 4.30 gears suck crap for the freeway.

Look how many guys are under 300rwhp HP on this board with aluminum heads.

Im going to put in a 351 soon, and I'm going with 11:1 compression, and I'm shooting for 410hp with my heads, a TFS351 intake and some sort of custom cam.

Skyler

------------------
-1989 Saleen Mustang #406-
TFS Heads, E-303 Cam, Edelbrock Intake, and a whole lot more.
13.2@106mph
-Shooting for 12's and a 351 slowly in the works!

Stock-94 Integra 15.48@91mph
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Old 02-20-2001, 09:47 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Is that 351 with 11:1 compression going to be a daily driver running pump gas?
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Old 02-21-2001, 01:11 AM   #19 (permalink)
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If you want a daily driver with 400+ hp on pump gas, maybe look into an Incon twin turbo kit. Almost a bolt-on ordeal also.

------------------
1991 LX Hatch 5.0L
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Old 02-21-2001, 01:45 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I'm going to need to rebuild my motor though in the near future because of high miles.

All motor would be cheaper then getting that twin turbo kit. Plus turbos get too hot in the summer when it's 100 degree's out and I have to drive ~20 miles to work every day in that heat. The twin turbo's make the car hell to work on and I don't want to have to install them. Changing my spark plugs or changing out the header gaskets with it looking like this?



I can pick up a rebuilt shortblock fairly cheap. Just need a good set of aftermarket heads and a cam. Pick up an intake when I find one. 30lb injectors, and the required mass air, 155 or 190lph intank pump.

Shorty headers, hi flow cat X pipe, FlowMaster cat back.

Run this T5 till it blows up, and 3.27's.

Can I expect 11's out of that combo, or "just" 12's?
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