450 - 500 hp 302, all motor - Page 2

8850 · 02-21-2001, 05:25 AM

Take a look at my dyno sheet in my signature. This is reality. I realize more cam, a better intake and 1 3/4" headers would get me more but 450-500, I doubt it!

------------------
88 347, Twisted wedge heads,Comp Cams 224/230 cam, 1/4=10.718 @ 123.02 mph,dyno= http://www.fbody.com/members/LarryS/mustdyno.jpg

[This message has been edited by 8850 (edited 02-21-2001).]

rtz · 02-21-2001, 05:31 PM

That's amazing that your running 10's with that much power.

I think Skyman was right when he said that I 'don't have any clue how much horsepower that is'.

I have rode in and driven 11, 12, and 13 second cars before, but we could only imagine how much power they were making since these cars have never been on a dyno before.

I'm now looking to build a 300-350 horsepower motor since 450-500 seems unattainable using a rebuilt stock shortblock and some aftermarket heads, cam, and intake.

stng87 · 02-21-2001, 06:54 PM

450-500 horse power all motor on a 5.0....
Yea, like mine

rtz · 02-21-2001, 06:57 PM

What do you have?

smooth · 02-21-2001, 08:58 PM

like everyone said.. not happening. you are talking a solid roller motor setup here with some high dollar internals and a 4bolt main with all the whips to spin that kind of rpm.

you would be hard pressed to pull peak 340rwtq out of a 302 with street gas n/a. you are looking at 400-450rwhp here. even with an average torque curve you would have to peak HP at ~6800 to make 400rwhp. to make 450rwhp with a tad more tq at peak you are looking at a ~7400rpm peak. it would probably need to wind out past 8k. definitely roller territory.

look for a very well built 302 to make ~340rwhp and around 320rwtq on street gas.

sky,

Quote:

Look how many guys are under 300rwhp HP on this board with aluminum heads.

look how many of them are running tiny cams and ~9:1 compression also.

rtz · 02-21-2001, 09:46 PM

Let's take a stock shortblock and some 54cc heads and some cam.

What is the most we can expect to get out of it?

racin85 · 02-21-2001, 11:56 PM

Take a look at my sig. and see what parts out of my buddys garage got me.The car weight is 3080 w/driver.The stang analyzer showed 324rwhp N/A with the five speed.I put a c4 and a cone 3500 stall in since.The car went 12.60 @ 106 N/A and 11.21 @ 116 on 150 shot (burnt 3 plugs by 900-1000ft).

------------------
85 capri,balanced .030 over 79 302,windage tray polished/weight matched rods w/arp bolts.63 289 heads port/polish with FMS windsor springs. Torker 289 intake,514 solidcam,1.6rr.mac long tubes,off-road h,and pro dumps.T-5`4.10's on auburn HD carrier.NOS CHEATER kit,pullies and plenty more.Best NA run
1.683 60ft 7.837 @ 87 12.353 @ 109.05
NOS,11.21@ 116 1.49 60ft

rtz · 02-22-2001, 02:11 AM

Do they still make that Torker intake?

That's the one where the carburator sits at an angle right?

Skyman · 02-22-2001, 02:26 AM

Your setup runs real good there, but 106mph with a 3000lb car isnt near 320rwhp. Its probably near 275.

My car is near 3500lbs race weight and I pulled 106 trap and I know I probably dont have 300rwhp.

Shoot for 300-350 and you'll be very happy.. With those heads I think you'll see 10.5 or 11:1 compression, I dont know for sure. That should get you around 320rwhp. That will be fast as hell.

Skyler

------------------
-1989 Saleen Mustang #406-
TFS Heads, E-303 Cam, Edelbrock Intake, and a whole lot more.
13.2@106mph
-Shooting for 12's and a 351 slowly in the works!

Stock-94 Integra 15.48@91mph

MiracleMax · 02-22-2001, 11:38 AM

If your going to build a 450-500 hp engine with upgraded parts, why not go with a stroker motor. All things being equal, using the 423 hp motor listed above, then adding another 47 cubes oughta get you into the 450 hp territory maybe a little higher. Optimistically it would put you in the 480 hp range?

450 hp engine

347 stroker assy.
77mm Mass-Air meter
75 mm T-body
Edelbrock Victor 5.0 (or Ported Performer RPM)
AFR 185cc heads
Comp Cams 280+ Extreme Energy (or Nitrous HP, go figure when I contacted CC about just such an engine with AFR's published airflow figures they suggested the biggest Nitrous HP cam in the 5.0 hydraulic roller section)
11:1 c/r (fuel injection, aluminum heads, 180 deg thermostat, and good radiator might make it possiblem, then again it might be entirely possible because I have a 10:1 iron head motor using 92-93 octane with a carb and a moderate duration cam with 278 degrees of advertised duration)
1-3/4 long tubes
30-36 pound injectors

Really the question is where do you want to make 450-500 hp. If you can spin the bugger high enough and keep cylinder pressure from falling of then it could make the power. But in the realm of hydraulic roller engines, your probably gonna be stuck at around 6500-7000 rpm. Which will take big time mid to high rpm torque to accomplish. Say you want 450 hp at 6000 rpm, that'll take 394 foot pounds of torque at 6000 rpm to accomplish, at 5000 rpm your looking at 473 foot pounds of torque. For a 347 to make 400 foot pounds of torque at 6000 rpm, your looking at an engine that has to be in the vicinity of 100%+ volumetric efficency, naturally aspirated.

When I get mine done, I'll get back to this post

drag79stang · 02-22-2001, 01:41 PM

Why not just build a stroker 351W? My 418 (Eagle kit), just made 572.6 HP @ 6400 rpm, & 517 ft. lbl TQ @ 5200. (with old victor jr. intake). Now has super victor.

Jeff Chambers · 02-23-2001, 07:28 AM

We've got guys in T/S making 350RWHP+ with GT-40P heads (unported), GT-40 intakes, shorty and .500" cams. One has susposedly made 378RWHP in carbureted form. It doesn't take an expensive motor to do it. Last years champ did it on stock block (+0.030), stock crank and rods, with TRW replacement pistons. No fancy lightened cranks, polished rods, none of that. Now if he's making 350RWHP, that would be in excess of 400 at the crank.

If you're talking 347 with AL heads, .560" cam, LT headers and Edelbrock intake and you can't make 450HP from it, then something's wrong. Careful selection of parts and good tuning should get you there real easy. The tuning is the tough part. It takes time, runs at the track or dyno, and some money but as the forty-niners used to say..."There's horsepower in that there engine!"

------------------
Jeff Chambers
Trophy Stock #3
11.97 Seconds / 114.5 MPH
Chambers Racing Team

Dangerous Dave · 02-23-2001, 10:17 AM

Jeff-yeah but what kind of compression is that top guy making? 13-14:1?

------------------
1988 GT-under construction

Jeff Chambers · 02-23-2001, 12:16 PM

Considering we've got to have flat-top pistons, PV becomes the issue. I'll tell you that right around 12:1 is a pretty good figure. Its not outlandish compression like you see with the hot-street/bandit motors, but its definitely better than stock :^o I've run mine on pump 94 around town without any problem, but most of the time I've got some race fuel in it adding some octane. I know a guy who runs his 12.7:1 347 motor as a driver, changes to slicks at the track, puts 300HP squirts to it and runs low nines. Then puts the street tires back on it and drives it home! My whole point was that with the kind of mods you guys are talking about you shouldn't have one bit of trouble getting well past 450HP.

------------------
Jeff Chambers
Trophy Stock #3
11.97 Seconds / 114.5 MPH
Chambers Racing Team

Dangerous Dave · 02-23-2001, 02:05 PM

Juiced 12.7:1 347 cu in low 9 second car that is not considered a street car because of the class he races in...but because it actually gets driven on the street sometimes-that's cool. I agree with you though-450 is defifnitely not out of the question for a 306-the question about comp ratio was actually more of a personal question for when I see you guys in Cordova and possibly Ennis, I'll know a little more about what I'm competing with... :-)

------------------
1988 GT-under construction

MiracleMax · 02-24-2001, 06:49 PM

Hah, pessimism is a virtue. My virtual dyno predicts 480 hp with this combination of parts. However I reserve judgement until I can get this sucker finished and find somebody who can dyno the engine.

800 cfm T-body (whay can't they rate them like this! I've seen 75mm t-bodies flow 780-840 cfm)
Sequential Fire Intake (I'm guessing this is similar to a Vic 5.0 or a Performer RPM EFI)
ARP 185 cc heads
11.0:1 comp
Comp Cams Nitrous HP hydraulic roller 35-560-8
347 cid engine
small-tube headers (closest model to a set of 1-3/4 dia pipes)
Anywhosit it makes 480hp @ 6000 rpm and 470 ft'lbs. of torque at 4500 rpm.

This would be nice but I'm highly skeptical because the program can have about a 10% error (which with my luck would be 50 hp lower

)

rtz · 02-25-2001, 11:36 PM

I want to build the 455 HP motor on this page: http://www.airflowresearch.com/ford_dyno.htm

rtz · 02-26-2001, 01:42 AM

On this page: http://www.compcams.com/catalog/156_157.html

It's says that 282 cam needs a EEC IV upgrade. What would that consist of?

How would the car run with just the stock computer and that cam?

slow87GT · 02-26-2001, 01:22 PM

the eeciv upgrade is the fms rpm extender to go past 6250 fact. rev limit

thinking your gonna make anywhere these numbers w/box stock cobra intake and shortie headers is plain crazy.

the numbers you want will require-
11:1 compression
heads capable of flowing 300/220 or preferably more, 1.94 valve is fine
1 3/4 longtubes
holley intake(or tfs but holley better choice)
the 282xe'll get ya there as will tfs stage 3 cam
solid roller, A4block, stud girdle, box intake, and 12.5-13.5:1 comp and 7500rpm shifts are what it'll take to break 500hp

be realistic, a GT40 crate motor will never make these numbers if god cams it, and w/3.27 gears, you just have know idea of what it takes to be 11secquick at the strip

be realistic, optimism is good, but there ain't a gasket kit worth 100hp

rtz · 03-06-2001, 11:25 PM

How did they build that 455hp motor? I want a motor like that.

Can't I just run the same heads and cam as them with a Holley or TFS intake and get about the same as them?

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02-21-2001, 05:25 AM	#21
8850 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Sugarland, TX USA Posts: 161	Take a look at my dyno sheet in my signature. This is reality. I realize more cam, a better intake and 1 3/4" headers would get me more but 450-500, I doubt it! ------------------ 88 347, Twisted wedge heads,Comp Cams 224/230 cam, 1/4=10.718 @ 123.02 mph,dyno= http://www.fbody.com/members/LarryS/mustdyno.jpg [This message has been edited by 8850 (edited 02-21-2001).]

02-21-2001, 05:31 PM	#22
rtz Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Edmond, OK Posts: 180	That's amazing that your running 10's with that much power. I think Skyman was right when he said that I 'don't have any clue how much horsepower that is'. I have rode in and driven 11, 12, and 13 second cars before, but we could only imagine how much power they were making since these cars have never been on a dyno before. I'm now looking to build a 300-350 horsepower motor since 450-500 seems unattainable using a rebuilt stock shortblock and some aftermarket heads, cam, and intake.

02-21-2001, 06:54 PM	#23
stng87 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: southern california Posts: 329	450-500 horse power all motor on a 5.0.... Yea, like mine

02-21-2001, 06:57 PM	#24
rtz Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Edmond, OK Posts: 180	What do you have?

02-21-2001, 09:46 PM	#26
rtz Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Edmond, OK Posts: 180	Let's take a stock shortblock and some 54cc heads and some cam. What is the most we can expect to get out of it?

02-21-2001, 11:56 PM	#27
racin85 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: libertycenter,oh,us Posts: 73	Take a look at my sig. and see what parts out of my buddys garage got me.The car weight is 3080 w/driver.The stang analyzer showed 324rwhp N/A with the five speed.I put a c4 and a cone 3500 stall in since.The car went 12.60 @ 106 N/A and 11.21 @ 116 on 150 shot (burnt 3 plugs by 900-1000ft). ------------------ 85 capri,balanced .030 over 79 302,windage tray polished/weight matched rods w/arp bolts.63 289 heads port/polish with FMS windsor springs. Torker 289 intake,514 solidcam,1.6rr.mac long tubes,off-road h,and pro dumps.T-5`4.10's on auburn HD carrier.NOS CHEATER kit,pullies and plenty more.Best NA run 1.683 60ft 7.837 @ 87 12.353 @ 109.05 NOS,11.21@ 116 1.49 60ft

02-22-2001, 02:11 AM	#28
rtz Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Edmond, OK Posts: 180	Do they still make that Torker intake? That's the one where the carburator sits at an angle right?

02-22-2001, 02:26 AM	#29
Skyman I need 110mph Trap Speed! Join Date: Feb 1999 Location: So, CA Posts: 4,315	Your setup runs real good there, but 106mph with a 3000lb car isnt near 320rwhp. Its probably near 275. My car is near 3500lbs race weight and I pulled 106 trap and I know I probably dont have 300rwhp. Shoot for 300-350 and you'll be very happy.. With those heads I think you'll see 10.5 or 11:1 compression, I dont know for sure. That should get you around 320rwhp. That will be fast as hell. Skyler ------------------ -1989 Saleen Mustang #406- TFS Heads, E-303 Cam, Edelbrock Intake, and a whole lot more. 13.2@106mph -Shooting for 12's and a 351 slowly in the works! Stock-94 Integra 15.48@91mph

02-22-2001, 11:38 AM	#30
MiracleMax Registered Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: Hayes, Va, USA Posts: 798	If your going to build a 450-500 hp engine with upgraded parts, why not go with a stroker motor. All things being equal, using the 423 hp motor listed above, then adding another 47 cubes oughta get you into the 450 hp territory maybe a little higher. Optimistically it would put you in the 480 hp range? 450 hp engine 347 stroker assy. 77mm Mass-Air meter 75 mm T-body Edelbrock Victor 5.0 (or Ported Performer RPM) AFR 185cc heads Comp Cams 280+ Extreme Energy (or Nitrous HP, go figure when I contacted CC about just such an engine with AFR's published airflow figures they suggested the biggest Nitrous HP cam in the 5.0 hydraulic roller section) 11:1 c/r (fuel injection, aluminum heads, 180 deg thermostat, and good radiator might make it possiblem, then again it might be entirely possible because I have a 10:1 iron head motor using 92-93 octane with a carb and a moderate duration cam with 278 degrees of advertised duration) 1-3/4 long tubes 30-36 pound injectors Really the question is where do you want to make 450-500 hp. If you can spin the bugger high enough and keep cylinder pressure from falling of then it could make the power. But in the realm of hydraulic roller engines, your probably gonna be stuck at around 6500-7000 rpm. Which will take big time mid to high rpm torque to accomplish. Say you want 450 hp at 6000 rpm, that'll take 394 foot pounds of torque at 6000 rpm to accomplish, at 5000 rpm your looking at 473 foot pounds of torque. For a 347 to make 400 foot pounds of torque at 6000 rpm, your looking at an engine that has to be in the vicinity of 100%+ volumetric efficency, naturally aspirated. When I get mine done, I'll get back to this post

02-22-2001, 01:41 PM	#31
drag79stang Dont make me take my belt off Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 58	Why not just build a stroker 351W? My 418 (Eagle kit), just made 572.6 HP @ 6400 rpm, & 517 ft. lbl TQ @ 5200. (with old victor jr. intake). Now has super victor.

02-23-2001, 07:28 AM	#32
Jeff Chambers Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Milan, OH Posts: 2,699	We've got guys in T/S making 350RWHP+ with GT-40P heads (unported), GT-40 intakes, shorty and .500" cams. One has susposedly made 378RWHP in carbureted form. It doesn't take an expensive motor to do it. Last years champ did it on stock block (+0.030), stock crank and rods, with TRW replacement pistons. No fancy lightened cranks, polished rods, none of that. Now if he's making 350RWHP, that would be in excess of 400 at the crank. If you're talking 347 with AL heads, .560" cam, LT headers and Edelbrock intake and you can't make 450HP from it, then something's wrong. Careful selection of parts and good tuning should get you there real easy. The tuning is the tough part. It takes time, runs at the track or dyno, and some money but as the forty-niners used to say..."There's horsepower in that there engine!" ------------------ Jeff Chambers Trophy Stock #3 11.97 Seconds / 114.5 MPH Chambers Racing Team

02-23-2001, 10:17 AM	#33
Dangerous Dave Registered Member Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 121	Jeff-yeah but what kind of compression is that top guy making? 13-14:1? ------------------ 1988 GT-under construction

02-23-2001, 12:16 PM	#34
Jeff Chambers Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Milan, OH Posts: 2,699	Considering we've got to have flat-top pistons, PV becomes the issue. I'll tell you that right around 12:1 is a pretty good figure. Its not outlandish compression like you see with the hot-street/bandit motors, but its definitely better than stock :^o I've run mine on pump 94 around town without any problem, but most of the time I've got some race fuel in it adding some octane. I know a guy who runs his 12.7:1 347 motor as a driver, changes to slicks at the track, puts 300HP squirts to it and runs low nines. Then puts the street tires back on it and drives it home! My whole point was that with the kind of mods you guys are talking about you shouldn't have one bit of trouble getting well past 450HP. ------------------ Jeff Chambers Trophy Stock #3 11.97 Seconds / 114.5 MPH Chambers Racing Team

02-23-2001, 02:05 PM	#35
Dangerous Dave Registered Member Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 121	Juiced 12.7:1 347 cu in low 9 second car that is not considered a street car because of the class he races in...but because it actually gets driven on the street sometimes-that's cool. I agree with you though-450 is defifnitely not out of the question for a 306-the question about comp ratio was actually more of a personal question for when I see you guys in Cordova and possibly Ennis, I'll know a little more about what I'm competing with... :-) ------------------ 1988 GT-under construction

02-24-2001, 06:49 PM	#36
MiracleMax Registered Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: Hayes, Va, USA Posts: 798	Hah, pessimism is a virtue. My virtual dyno predicts 480 hp with this combination of parts. However I reserve judgement until I can get this sucker finished and find somebody who can dyno the engine. 800 cfm T-body (whay can't they rate them like this! I've seen 75mm t-bodies flow 780-840 cfm) Sequential Fire Intake (I'm guessing this is similar to a Vic 5.0 or a Performer RPM EFI) ARP 185 cc heads 11.0:1 comp Comp Cams Nitrous HP hydraulic roller 35-560-8 347 cid engine small-tube headers (closest model to a set of 1-3/4 dia pipes) Anywhosit it makes 480hp @ 6000 rpm and 470 ft'lbs. of torque at 4500 rpm. This would be nice but I'm highly skeptical because the program can have about a 10% error (which with my luck would be 50 hp lower )

02-25-2001, 11:36 PM	#37
rtz Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Edmond, OK Posts: 180	I want to build the 455 HP motor on this page: http://www.airflowresearch.com/ford_dyno.htm

02-26-2001, 01:42 AM	#38
rtz Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Edmond, OK Posts: 180	On this page: http://www.compcams.com/catalog/156_157.html It's says that 282 cam needs a EEC IV upgrade. What would that consist of? How would the car run with just the stock computer and that cam?

02-26-2001, 01:22 PM	#39
slow87GT Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Tonawanda,NY Posts: 71	the eeciv upgrade is the fms rpm extender to go past 6250 fact. rev limit thinking your gonna make anywhere these numbers w/box stock cobra intake and shortie headers is plain crazy. the numbers you want will require- 11:1 compression heads capable of flowing 300/220 or preferably more, 1.94 valve is fine 1 3/4 longtubes holley intake(or tfs but holley better choice) the 282xe'll get ya there as will tfs stage 3 cam solid roller, A4block, stud girdle, box intake, and 12.5-13.5:1 comp and 7500rpm shifts are what it'll take to break 500hp be realistic, a GT40 crate motor will never make these numbers if god cams it, and w/3.27 gears, you just have know idea of what it takes to be 11secquick at the strip be realistic, optimism is good, but there ain't a gasket kit worth 100hp

03-06-2001, 11:25 PM	#40
rtz Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Edmond, OK Posts: 180	How did they build that 455hp motor? I want a motor like that. Can't I just run the same heads and cam as them with a Holley or TFS intake and get about the same as them?