Thermostat YES or NO???

88PONY · 08-10-2001, 10:24 AM

I've heard that taking a themostat out makes your car overheat. I've also heard that taking a thermostat out makes a car run cool and could cause a head gasket to blow. My car runs hot. It has a stock cooling system with a Becool rad. I think it runs hot due to the 4:10 gears and the 4200 8in converter. It's fine if you drive but in gear at idle it runs hot. (230F) I have a 160 Super stat. I was wondering if it would run cooler with no stat. Maybe the stat is resricting my flow too much. What do you guys think. Oh yea it runs this hot with an electric fan or clutch.

Thanks

David Fulford · 08-10-2001, 12:35 PM

Without the thermostat the water never sits in the radiator for the heat to dissapate. It always flows and in some cases can make ahotter engine condition. I have always heard to run a 180 thermostat.

------------------
1969 fast back; yellow; weld wheels; 302 roller with GT-40 heads; 3:55 gears; 5spd T-5; MSD 6AL; E-303; flows; Hedman headers; Holley 600;

Mr 5 0 · 08-10-2001, 01:00 PM

Try the 180 degree thermostat and a 60/40 mix (60% water/40% antifreeze) along with a can of Water Wetter (Pep Boys has it).

That might do it for you, as a good radiator and an electric or working clutch fan should be enough to keep you cool, otherwise.

PKRWUD · 08-10-2001, 02:28 PM

I agree that a 180 t-stat is needed, but it needs to be an accurate t-stat. I prefer Ford, but others here recently have been having alot of luck with Robertshaw t-stats. Avoid Stant t-stats at all costs, but you might want to buy one of there radiator caps (at least a 15 psi). As another gentleman here just discovered, a good sealing cap is crucial. Last, but not least, drain your cooling system and refill with straight water, no coolant. Under stock conditions, I would run 20% coolant, but recent studies I have seen confirm what I was taught working for Bill Elliott, which was to always run straight water in a high performance engine. Coolant retains heat, and with 4.10's and an 8" convertor (you better have an external tranny cooler!), I'm sure you run plenty hot! By October, flush your cooling system and refill with the 40/60 mix Jim described above, and leave it that way through the winter. next spring, do the water thing again. I have heard concerns about the water pump requiring some coolant for lubrication, but for 6 month periods, it shouldn't present a problem. If you are really concerned, and insist on having some coolant in your system, use no more than 10%.

Those things, when combined, will reduce your engines operating temperature.

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

jimberg · 08-11-2001, 01:36 AM

Chris, there is something I wanted to run by you and thought others may be interested. A lot of times we figure that if a part worked before our mods, it should work after we're done. I think the radiator cap is a good example. It's pretty much kept wet and lubricated for the life of the car, but then we go and drain the radiator and let it sit for weeks or months in a box while we change heads, or swap engines or something. My theory is that this is when my cap went bad. It just dried out. Mine was in a box for a good 4 months.

Just thought I would mention it and see what you think.

------------------
351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

tb · 08-11-2001, 08:41 AM

I recently posted about this same topic...Here was my solution..I took my new Stant Super Thermostat and chunked it in the trash can because it did not open until 200 degrees..This was a 180 thermostat...Go to Autozone and buy a RobertShaw 160 degree thermostat, not a 180....After I put in the 160, my car runs between 180-190...No more detonation or running hot with the air conditioning...I live in Texas and it has been in the 100s for a while now...If you live in an area where the high temps are under 90 degrees, then get the 180...

I was fighting this overheating problem for 6 months, only to find out that Stant thermostats are inaccurate...I think Stant needs to hire some new Design Engineers who are knowledgable in Thermodynamics and Heat Transfer...

PKRWUD · 08-11-2001, 06:49 PM

Jim-
That's very possible, especially if it's an older cap to begin with. Part of the reason caps go bad is because their precision is determined by a metal spring, and as we all know, heat weakens metal, which can result in a bad cap.

I do know, first hand, that if you rebuild or replace anything on your engine that requires you to remove the water pump, you need to place the pump in a bucket of water to keep the seals from drying out. We all know that you should just replace the water pump anyway, but some people don't, and for them they really should know this. I was taught that by an instructor in college that I really respected, and just took his word for it, but when a friend of mine refused to take my advice when I installed a cam for him, his old pump leaked. It had been off for about two weeks, and had dried out enough to cause damage. Keep in mind that in So Cal, things dry out pretty quickly.

Anyway, that was a very good point! I hope alot of prople read that!

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

dinomite · 08-11-2001, 08:59 PM

ya, get a 180 degree thermo, and you definently should get a good brand, stay away from stant. i'd say you should run coolant (antifreeze) as it keeps the water from freezing and keeps stuff from rusting.

------------------
90LX AOD Convertable: Lakewood control arms, FMS springs.
Best 1/4: 15.277@92.25 (2.27 60')
AIM: dinomite1, roadracestang
dinomite@softhome.net

moosejaw · 08-13-2001, 12:00 AM

Is the B-cool radiator the 2" or 1" flavor. The 2" core requires a better fan due to the static pressure drop incurred. My 2" radiator caused headaches until I installed a clutchless Flex-a-lite fan. Big difference in stationary airflow and I maintained a stock Ford thermostat.

Mike

------------------
Live near St.Louis?
Check out Mustang Muscle and Dyno in High Ridge, MO
Check out my ride.

88PONY · 08-13-2001, 08:55 AM

Thanks for all the info. I do have an external TCI tranny cooler. The Becool rad. is part# BCI-65011. It is a 1 1/4 single core. As for my thermostat... it is a Stant 160. My antifreeze is a 50/50 mix. I also live in Jersey, so one day its 80, and the next its 105, but it is very very humid all the time. I think to day i'll change my Stant to an Autozone brand and drain and refill my rad. with just water. Then i'll take it from there.

Thanks Again

PKRWUD · 08-13-2001, 10:18 AM

Good idea! Make sure your cap is good too. If it's more than 2 years old, just buy a new Stant 15 or 16 pound cap with a relief valve.

Let us know how it works.

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

Big Bopper · 08-14-2001, 01:56 AM

I had 4 bad stants in row!!!!!!!!! I bought a Mr.Gasket Balanced Hp one it works great! I fought my overheating problem for 18mnths!!..... new rad,new pump,new cap,pulled engine thought it might be a frost plug de-pressurizing my system,twin flex-a-lite fans,new htr core. ect....All it was bad Stant after bad Stant... I wonder if Stant is aware of this common problem?

2FastLX · 08-14-2001, 04:17 AM

Chris, you always seem to have the best info to add to a topic

I too was wondering if running without a thermostat would cause problems. I just bought a Mr. Gasket chrome thermostat housing because I thought my original one was cracked, but when I went to install it I noticed it didn't have the counterbore (in machinist's terms) machined into it for the thermostat to sit in like the OEM housing did. So, for the time being I installed it without the thermostat in there. My car doesn't even begin to move the temp needle now. Am I hurting my engine? After thinking about this I realize how this may cause numerous problems like mentioned above, but the overheating problem is not an issue for my setup. Is this effecting my ECT sensor?

Thanks.

------------------
Gunning for 12's!

Buy your parts here
ICQ# 42269241

jimberg · 08-14-2001, 11:13 AM

If your engine doesn't reach operating temp, the computer will always think you are in warm up mode and keep you in open loop operation. Running your engine cold could also cause damage to numerous components because the oil doesn't get hot enough to lubricate properly. In other words, it's a really bad idea.

------------------
351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

PKRWUD · 08-14-2001, 05:42 PM

Thanks for the kind words. Don't overlook people like Jim, though! He's always on top of things, too! He's on the money with this one, too. In adition to his points, the two biggest problems that you will run into running under temp are both derived from running rich, which is what the ECM does until you reach a predetermined operating temperature. One is that you will dilute your oil. This leads to premature engine wear. Every component in your engine that relies on oil will show damaging wear in minimal time. While gasoline is good for cooling metal, it's lubricating characteristics disappeared when the removed the lead. The second problem is that if the mixture is rich going in, then it's going to be rich going out, and unburned fuel in the exhaust will clog up your cats in a heartbeat. This isn't a concern for people who have removed their cats, but most still have them, and what's happening can best be described as installing a progressively more restrictive exhaust. Is the temporary performance gain worth the damage a richer mixture creates? Not in my book. If I were in your shoes, I'd change my socks. Get another t-stat housing.

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

2FastLX · 08-15-2001, 01:47 AM

Oh man. I have had this T-stat in there for a couple weeks now. I didn't realize this could be so much a problem. Maybe that is why I've noticed the engine is starting to vibrate on acceleration now, and just seems to be lacking the power it usually has. It also surges badly, but it has done this since the rebuild. I'll put the old housing back on before I go anywhere tomorrow. I think it's time for a new engine. Maybe I can talk my wife into letting me buy a 392 stroker crate engine

------------------
Gunning for 12's!

Buy your parts here
ICQ# 42269241

PKRWUD · 08-15-2001, 02:12 AM

Does your wife have a sister?

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

08-10-2001, 10:24 AM	#1
88PONY Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: INDIO CA USA Posts: 141	Thermostat YES or NO??? I've heard that taking a themostat out makes your car overheat. I've also heard that taking a thermostat out makes a car run cool and could cause a head gasket to blow. My car runs hot. It has a stock cooling system with a Becool rad. I think it runs hot due to the 4:10 gears and the 4200 8in converter. It's fine if you drive but in gear at idle it runs hot. (230F) I have a 160 Super stat. I was wondering if it would run cooler with no stat. Maybe the stat is resricting my flow too much. What do you guys think. Oh yea it runs this hot with an electric fan or clutch. Thanks

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08-10-2001, 12:35 PM	#2
David Fulford Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 193	Without the thermostat the water never sits in the radiator for the heat to dissapate. It always flows and in some cases can make ahotter engine condition. I have always heard to run a 180 thermostat. ------------------ 1969 fast back; yellow; weld wheels; 302 roller with GT-40 heads; 3:55 gears; 5spd T-5; MSD 6AL; E-303; flows; Hedman headers; Holley 600;

08-10-2001, 01:00 PM	#3
Mr 5 0 Conservative Individualist Join Date: May 1997 Location: Wherever I need to be Posts: 7,487	Try the 180 degree thermostat and a 60/40 mix (60% water/40% antifreeze) along with a can of Water Wetter (Pep Boys has it). That might do it for you, as a good radiator and an electric or working clutch fan should be enough to keep you cool, otherwise.

08-10-2001, 02:28 PM	#4
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	I agree that a 180 t-stat is needed, but it needs to be an accurate t-stat. I prefer Ford, but others here recently have been having alot of luck with Robertshaw t-stats. Avoid Stant t-stats at all costs, but you might want to buy one of there radiator caps (at least a 15 psi). As another gentleman here just discovered, a good sealing cap is crucial. Last, but not least, drain your cooling system and refill with straight water, no coolant. Under stock conditions, I would run 20% coolant, but recent studies I have seen confirm what I was taught working for Bill Elliott, which was to always run straight water in a high performance engine. Coolant retains heat, and with 4.10's and an 8" convertor (you better have an external tranny cooler!), I'm sure you run plenty hot! By October, flush your cooling system and refill with the 40/60 mix Jim described above, and leave it that way through the winter. next spring, do the water thing again. I have heard concerns about the water pump requiring some coolant for lubrication, but for 6 month periods, it shouldn't present a problem. If you are really concerned, and insist on having some coolant in your system, use no more than 10%. Those things, when combined, will reduce your engines operating temperature. Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

08-11-2001, 01:36 AM	#5
jimberg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 2,089	Chris, there is something I wanted to run by you and thought others may be interested. A lot of times we figure that if a part worked before our mods, it should work after we're done. I think the radiator cap is a good example. It's pretty much kept wet and lubricated for the life of the car, but then we go and drain the radiator and let it sit for weeks or months in a box while we change heads, or swap engines or something. My theory is that this is when my cap went bad. It just dried out. Mine was in a box for a good 4 months. Just thought I would mention it and see what you think. ------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

08-11-2001, 08:41 AM	#6
tb Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Denton, TX Posts: 53	I recently posted about this same topic...Here was my solution..I took my new Stant Super Thermostat and chunked it in the trash can because it did not open until 200 degrees..This was a 180 thermostat...Go to Autozone and buy a RobertShaw 160 degree thermostat, not a 180....After I put in the 160, my car runs between 180-190...No more detonation or running hot with the air conditioning...I live in Texas and it has been in the 100s for a while now...If you live in an area where the high temps are under 90 degrees, then get the 180... I was fighting this overheating problem for 6 months, only to find out that Stant thermostats are inaccurate...I think Stant needs to hire some new Design Engineers who are knowledgable in Thermodynamics and Heat Transfer...

08-11-2001, 06:49 PM	#7
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Jim- That's very possible, especially if it's an older cap to begin with. Part of the reason caps go bad is because their precision is determined by a metal spring, and as we all know, heat weakens metal, which can result in a bad cap. I do know, first hand, that if you rebuild or replace anything on your engine that requires you to remove the water pump, you need to place the pump in a bucket of water to keep the seals from drying out. We all know that you should just replace the water pump anyway, but some people don't, and for them they really should know this. I was taught that by an instructor in college that I really respected, and just took his word for it, but when a friend of mine refused to take my advice when I installed a cam for him, his old pump leaked. It had been off for about two weeks, and had dried out enough to cause damage. Keep in mind that in So Cal, things dry out pretty quickly. Anyway, that was a very good point! I hope alot of prople read that! Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

08-11-2001, 08:59 PM	#8
dinomite The Dude Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 1,262	ya, get a 180 degree thermo, and you definently should get a good brand, stay away from stant. i'd say you should run coolant (antifreeze) as it keeps the water from freezing and keeps stuff from rusting. ------------------ 90LX AOD Convertable: Lakewood control arms, FMS springs. Best 1/4: 15.277@92.25 (2.27 60') AIM: dinomite1, roadracestang dinomite@softhome.net

08-13-2001, 12:00 AM	#9
moosejaw Registered Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: St.Louis,MO Posts: 274	Is the B-cool radiator the 2" or 1" flavor. The 2" core requires a better fan due to the static pressure drop incurred. My 2" radiator caused headaches until I installed a clutchless Flex-a-lite fan. Big difference in stationary airflow and I maintained a stock Ford thermostat. Mike ------------------ Live near St.Louis? Check out Mustang Muscle and Dyno in High Ridge, MO Check out my ride.

08-13-2001, 08:55 AM	#10
88PONY Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: INDIO CA USA Posts: 141	Thanks for all the info. I do have an external TCI tranny cooler. The Becool rad. is part# BCI-65011. It is a 1 1/4 single core. As for my thermostat... it is a Stant 160. My antifreeze is a 50/50 mix. I also live in Jersey, so one day its 80, and the next its 105, but it is very very humid all the time. I think to day i'll change my Stant to an Autozone brand and drain and refill my rad. with just water. Then i'll take it from there. Thanks Again

08-13-2001, 10:18 AM	#11
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Good idea! Make sure your cap is good too. If it's more than 2 years old, just buy a new Stant 15 or 16 pound cap with a relief valve. Let us know how it works. Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

08-14-2001, 01:56 AM	#12
Big Bopper Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Sechelt, B.C., Canada Posts: 200	I had 4 bad stants in row!!!!!!!!! I bought a Mr.Gasket Balanced Hp one it works great! I fought my overheating problem for 18mnths!!..... new rad,new pump,new cap,pulled engine thought it might be a frost plug de-pressurizing my system,twin flex-a-lite fans,new htr core. ect....All it was bad Stant after bad Stant... I wonder if Stant is aware of this common problem?

08-14-2001, 04:17 AM	#13
2FastLX The Photoshop Guru Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Mecca, Indiana Posts: 1,419	Chris, you always seem to have the best info to add to a topic I too was wondering if running without a thermostat would cause problems. I just bought a Mr. Gasket chrome thermostat housing because I thought my original one was cracked, but when I went to install it I noticed it didn't have the counterbore (in machinist's terms) machined into it for the thermostat to sit in like the OEM housing did. So, for the time being I installed it without the thermostat in there. My car doesn't even begin to move the temp needle now. Am I hurting my engine? After thinking about this I realize how this may cause numerous problems like mentioned above, but the overheating problem is not an issue for my setup. Is this effecting my ECT sensor? Thanks. ------------------ Gunning for 12's! Buy your parts here ICQ# 42269241

08-14-2001, 11:13 AM	#14
jimberg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 2,089	If your engine doesn't reach operating temp, the computer will always think you are in warm up mode and keep you in open loop operation. Running your engine cold could also cause damage to numerous components because the oil doesn't get hot enough to lubricate properly. In other words, it's a really bad idea. ------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

08-14-2001, 05:42 PM	#15
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Thanks for the kind words. Don't overlook people like Jim, though! He's always on top of things, too! He's on the money with this one, too. In adition to his points, the two biggest problems that you will run into running under temp are both derived from running rich, which is what the ECM does until you reach a predetermined operating temperature. One is that you will dilute your oil. This leads to premature engine wear. Every component in your engine that relies on oil will show damaging wear in minimal time. While gasoline is good for cooling metal, it's lubricating characteristics disappeared when the removed the lead. The second problem is that if the mixture is rich going in, then it's going to be rich going out, and unburned fuel in the exhaust will clog up your cats in a heartbeat. This isn't a concern for people who have removed their cats, but most still have them, and what's happening can best be described as installing a progressively more restrictive exhaust. Is the temporary performance gain worth the damage a richer mixture creates? Not in my book. If I were in your shoes, I'd change my socks. Get another t-stat housing. Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

08-15-2001, 01:47 AM	#16
2FastLX The Photoshop Guru Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Mecca, Indiana Posts: 1,419	Oh man. I have had this T-stat in there for a couple weeks now. I didn't realize this could be so much a problem. Maybe that is why I've noticed the engine is starting to vibrate on acceleration now, and just seems to be lacking the power it usually has. It also surges badly, but it has done this since the rebuild. I'll put the old housing back on before I go anywhere tomorrow. I think it's time for a new engine. Maybe I can talk my wife into letting me buy a 392 stroker crate engine ------------------ Gunning for 12's! Buy your parts here ICQ# 42269241

08-15-2001, 02:12 AM	#17
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Does your wife have a sister? Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!