650HP stock block
 

I wondered how long it was going to live, and it took me through most of the season going 10's before finally doing what the stock block @ 650HP does best... SPLIT right down the middle. I'll post some pics later... R.I.P. :)

Same thing happend to my friends. He was running 10.0's at 133 and it finally went after about 2 months of that. Got done running it and the oil pressure was very low. He drove it home and took it apart the day after. It was a terrible sight. Split right down the middle and the cam bearings were half way out. OUCH !!!!!

650 HP is hard on a stock block any way you look at it but i do think nitrous or boost or high energy fuels like nitro methane make it much more likely to granade a block at a given HP. What do you guys think ?
Still broke is broke reguardless of what caused it, and it takes a big bite out of the old wallet huh Ultraflo :( Sorry to hear it let go on you.
What i'd really like to know while your down and have some time is about those 1.34 60' times !! Care to share some or all of your set up :D That thing has to be biting so good its tearing out chunks of track :eek:

A fellow over here said his was full of spider webs. What are you going to replace it with?

What were you running on the bottom end? Did you use the splayed 4 bolt main caps, did you run a crank scrapper and windage tray, did you run a girdle on the main caps?

Most of the difficulty with the windsor block is the lack of material around the main bearing webs. Most of us machine the blocks for the splayed 4 bolt main caps, and then use a scrapper, windage tray, and a girdle.

If you don't scrape the oil off the crank, it will "rope" around the crank and flex it enough to cause the cracking you have described. So just bolting up a windage tray and a main cap girdle can still lead to the problem you described.

A precut crank scraper runs about 14.00 from Mustangs Plus. You will need to modify it for exact clearance for your rod and stroke combination.

You may want to go toward a Mexican 302 block, or the Ford Racing Block with higher nickle content and the 4 bolt mains. You still need the scraper and the windage tray and the girdle. YOU NEED ALL 4 of these improvements.

Hope this helps.

By the way, we had to go with a dry sump oil system on the hi rev clevelands and 302 boss engines to prevent those blocks from cracking in half. The main bearing journals were just too weak. The flex in the crank would kill the webs and the engines would detonate. We did this on a Pantera running 185 mph at Bonneville. OUCH.

Next year we went with the dry sump system and had no problems except with the rain. That twin turbo charged 377 Cleveland ran over 200 mph. One pass hit a world record of 214 mph! With the wet oil system we could not exceed 197 mph. This goes to show you just how restriction the oil causes in a racing environment.

a few pictures...
 

http://members.mustangworks.com/ultr...ed_block02.jpg
...OUCH! :eek:
http://members.mustangworks.com/ultr...ds_pistons.jpg
...no damage to the rods or pistons :)
http://members.mustangworks.com/ultr...flow_crank.jpg
...or the crank :)
http://members.mustangworks.com/ultr...s/svo_r302.jpg
...rotating assembly will find it's way into a new home via SVO R302 block :cool:

http://members.mustangworks.com/ultr...cked_block.jpg

...I encountered the same scenario (low oil pressure and then the dislodged cam bearings), had to do some surgery to get the cam out without any harm.

I went from mid/low 1.4's with Goodyear 28x10 Eagles, to 1.3's with a tire swap alone... M/T ET Drag 28x10.5's bite so much better than the Eagles it's unbelievable, no kidding!

..."tearing chunks out of the track," LOL, when I did the wheelstand my bellhousing took a chunk out of the track when it came back down :eek: ...making my way off the track I was wondering how much damage I did to the underside of my car, and to my amazement, it wasn't as bad as I thought. I'm sure bouncing my motor off the pavement didn't help in keeping it together any longer...

Originally posted by jim_howard_pdx
What were you running on the bottom end? Did you use the splayed 4 bolt main caps, did you run a crank scrapper and windage tray, did you run a girdle on the main caps?

Jim, I used an SVO/DSS girdle w/ ARP main studs, stock 2-bolt caps, crank scraper via Moroso pan, no windage tray...

You may want to go toward a Mexican 302 block, or the Ford Racing Block with higher nickle content and the 4 bolt mains. You still need the scraper and the windage tray and the girdle. YOU NEED ALL 4 of these improvements.

...I got the block covered, and I plan on using a windage tray. I was under the impression that a girdle was not necessary on the R302 block. :confused:

With the wet oil system we could not exceed 197 mph. This goes to show you just how restriction the oil causes in a racing environment.

I'm going to stay with the wet sump oiling system into the low 9's, and then I'll figure a dry sump system into the equation for the next mill... should I ever get there ;) Thanks for all of the info...

Interesting, because the way it split through the bolt holes end to end, one side, it does look like some kind of big sudden shock load ???

...there is a hair-line crack down the center of the block in the lifter valley, which allowed the cam bearings to fall out of their respective locations... I didn't get any good pictures of the top of the block, the crack was difficult to see on the computer screen... might try again tomorrow. I have my hands full getting all of the small stuff taken care of. It should all start falling together in a few months.

You must run the scrapper AND I SCRAPE BOTH SIDES!!! You must run a windage tray. You must run the girdle. That block you are using should be good into the 7's.

I suspect that the NOS is the cause of the block damage.

You might want to change cranks just to be safe. I would ask a couple of Ford Motorsport dealers what they use in the 8 second brackets. Expect to pay 1,000 to 1,200 for the critter but it will resist the wrap up that causes this kind of damage.

If the problem is with the nitrous then here goes my favorite fix.
I hate giving up all my secrets. SO KEEP THIS TO YOURSELF.

When you run NOS it is especially effective to run a water injection system. I use a 5 gallon container, marked water in the trunk. It is plumbed with 3/8 inch lines and fed with a fuel injector type fuel pump. I am after 50 ppsi. I run the water at a 70/30 blend with pure isoprophyl alcohol. Iso is 132 octane.

I run this into two brass plant fogger nozzles that I mount just below the K&N filters. When the water flows, it gives off what looks like FOG when they spray. The pump delivers a set volume when the NOS hits. I use up about 2 1/2 quarts per quarter mile. My pipes are clean, my heads are clean, my exhaust temperature drops 145 degrees, my combustion temperature drops 278 degrees, and detonation is a thing of the past. By the way, the water allows me to run 13.5 to 1 compression with the NOS but I COAT THE PISTON TOPS AND THE COMBUSTION CHAMBER to get away with that. This is risky business with NOS going above 11.5 to 1.

I think you are detonating but it may be oil starvation. There are some trick accumulators out that will store up to two quarts of oil. I use these on off shore race engines and about any off road racing engine. It is especially good for turbo cars cause when the pressure goes to zero, the oil flows from the accumulator back to the main oil gallery. If you were oil starved I would expect you to have a burned engine. Lots of blue on the rod caps. Lots of weird wear on the bearing surface and rod journals.

I do not think that your wheel stands caused the crack. However, I do recommend that you NEVER LIFT during your launch. If you take your foot out of the gas because the front keeps rising, you can end up cracking a block. I have seen that on the Chevy small blocks.

ALL 9 second cars are going to pull the tires off the track. If it doesn't happen you are in trouble. Something is broken or wrong. If you keep your foot in the throttle you will come down soft and without any control issues.

My NOS systems are always PROGRESSIVE. I run about 200 hp on the first circuit and 375 hp on the second. That means two NOS tanks, two blankets, and lots of extra lines and hoses. We pulled 1100 HP and ran a 7.23 with a merlin block/heads/intake/ and single dominator carb. This is faster than the top fuel dragster times in the early 70's and they were running 396 or 426 Hemis with big blowers and fuel injection. Man how things have changed.

Originally posted by jim_howard_pdx
You must run the scrapper AND I SCRAPE BOTH SIDES!!! You must run a windage tray. You must run the girdle. That block you are using should be good into the 7's.

I only plan on running a windage tray... the block alone is rated at 1200HP from Ford, and I only plan on making 750-850 which is not even close to the limit ;)

I suspect that the NOS is the cause of the block damage.

I'm sure it didn't help any, lol :D

You might want to change cranks just to be safe. I would ask a couple of Ford Motorsport dealers what they use in the 8 second brackets. Expect to pay 1,000 to 1,200 for the critter but it will resist the wrap up that causes this kind of damage.

The crank is a Trick Flow forged, nitrided unit with radiused journals that is rated to handle 1000HP and 10,000 rpm, again, I shouldn't have to worry about the crank ;)


If the problem is with the nitrous then here goes my favorite fix.
I hate giving up all my secrets. SO KEEP THIS TO YOURSELF.

LOL, I promise :p

ALL 9 second cars are going to pull the tires off the track. If it doesn't happen you are in trouble. Something is broken or wrong. If you keep your foot in the throttle you will come down soft and without any control issues.

I was yankin' the front wheels running high 11's... :confused: ...it's the wheelstands that really get my attention, nearly dragging the bumper is not a good launch! I'd like to dial the suspension in the lift the front tires about a foot off the ground while still achieving respectable 60ft. times

My NOS systems are always PROGRESSIVE. I run about 200 hp on the first circuit and 375 hp on the second. That means two NOS tanks, two blankets, and lots of extra lines and hoses.

I've run a single stage, single nozzle system all year and will be looking into running a second stage via NX EFI plate system.... and I will most certainly be running two separate nitrous/fuel systems ;) Yes, sir!

Thanks for the insight... I appreciate it! :)

Sorry to hear of your troubles, I know how that goes man. What kind of oil are you running?

Your wheelstands are insane! With my 89'GT running at 9.78 (letting off at the end) I would lift maybe 1 foot or so max. The car would carry forward real well too.

Hope you get it back together soon. Just be thankful you didn't grenade the whole thing.

only way you can get your front tires off the ground kevin is to put a jack under them. :D

Kevin, thanks, I'd been running Valvoline VR-1 20w50, with a shot of Pro Long... got a good recommendation for me, what do you prefer?

Royal Purple keeps coming up when I talk to various people, that must be some good oral...

As for the wheelies... the first pass I made on the new M/T's (was running Eagles for most of the year) was my best of the year as far as ET. The second pass I figured I'd come out a little harder to see what'd happen :eek: ...next thing I know all I can see is the hood/cowling! Finished the pass, loaded up and went home to think about it ;) The next day (last day out this year), after re-thinking/tuning the suspension settings, I tried it again and it still wheelied, just not as severe... about 3-4 feet in first, and then about 2-3 feet in second gear :cool: It certainly was the crowd pleaser those two days out.... next year isn't too far away.

I should have the new mill and a second stage ready for spring ;) with some tuning, I'll then be calling out Eric to spank on his Nova! :D

-L8R

I run LE (Lubrication Engeineers) Monolec 20-50w. I've only made about 10 passes with it but it too comes highly recommended. It is supposed to hold up longer. I plan on having it tested to see what the breakdown is.

Don't you think you are setting your goal a little too low? I have an 81' Chevy 1-ton dually (stock) that could kick his butt til' his nose bleeds. And yes, that's WITH the A/C running.
:D

bwahahha you guys are too funny. The nova's gonna have some bottle maybe over the winter :) Haha kevin your too much man. Just remember the GT's gonna be ready soon..then i'm gonna call both you pansies out :)

...pansies?
 

I'll line up with your GT, Eric... it'd be fun to line up with a Pro 5.0 car :cool: ....wouldn't be much of a race, but we could see who gets tree'd ;) ...or do a bracket race :rolleyes:

BUT, I'll take your Nova :p... even with you sprayin' the piss out of it!!! :D

Anyhow :) ...I'd been changing my oil after every 10-15 passes. Not real sure just how great the VR-1 stuff is, but I think it worked well considering the condition of the bearings... they could probably be reused! They'd been in that motor since '99 and have held up great (clevite 77).

If you have any info on the LE Monolec, Kevin, please send it to me via e-mail... or just let me know how it works out for you, whichever works for you.

L8R!

I'd tree the piss outta you :) You sure you want some of the GT?? haha j/k But i'll give you some of the nova if that's what you want.

The only thing you're able to tree is a raccoon.:D

You smart mouth little punk :) haha

I think Arias makes the Trick Flow forged pistons, I do not know who makes their forged cranks. Forged cranks can cause all kinds of engine damage, and they are definitely not all built alike.

I would go with a crank designed for 8 second quarter miles, not a crank that was purchased from a different manufacturer and relabeled Trick Flow. You rarely get the best cranks when they do this type of relabeling.

Don't get me wrong, I like TF and I am using their street twisted wedge heads right now. But I would never use Arias pistons, and I would never use a TF crank.

A windage tray only prevents oil from dripping from the oil returns onto the spinning crank. You get an additional 8-12 hp using one, because of the difficulty the crank has displacing a very heavy fluid (motor oil and oil mist).

Ususally we use a crank scrapper just on the leading edge of the crank throw. The idea is to cut off the excess oil that hangs on the crank surfaces (created by surface tension) and more importantly it prevents the oil from"roping".

When an engine gets past 6,000 RPM the surface tension of the oil on the rotating crank makes the fluid wrap or "rope" around the crankshaft. It literally envelopes the crank and layers like twine wrapped around a spindle. The oil is heavy, thick, and will not compress. The "roping" causes the crank to flex and distort since the metal is now fighting the resistance (inertial energy) created by the roping oil.

Only a crank scrapper will remove this oil. A windage tray cannot. The scrappers cost about 8-14 dollars. I mount it and turn the crank, then clearance the unit to a minimum of 0.08 clearance, but I am after 0.10 clearance ideally. The reason I scrape both sides (probably overkill) is that suspended oil mist does get to the crank so scraping it every 180 degrees keeps the crank "unloaded".

The scrapper is not MORE important than the windage tray, it is JUST AS IMPORTANT. In your case, I think it is MANDATORY. Look, I am not trying to frighten you, but who is giving you advice on your engine???? You are a heart beat away from running 9 seconds and that is a thrill all its own. I just think that you would never bolt up a 10 second engine without using ARP or equivalent rod bolts? Why, because you know stock rod bolts are not up to 400 HP and above. They rarely survive 6,000 RPM revs without stretching, and loosing their grip on the rod bearings.

Well an oil scrapper is MORE IMPORTANT than the ARP bolts at 6,000 + RPM. I am serious about this. Almost every block or reciprocating part failure is due either to the oil battering the crankshaft, or to oil starvation. The rest of the damage is typically done by detonation.

Oil actually damages your crank as it spins. You cannot see it visually, but you sure can see the effects it makes when a crank fails, or a block cracks down the webs as yours has done.

Try the oil scrapper. It may reduce the twist in your crank enough that you will not break another block. ALSO, make sure you are using main studs instead of main bolts. The studs have quite a bit more clamping action since they are not relying upon bolt stretch to produce final torque. I do not know why I forgot to ask you how you were torquing your caps but studs are the only way to go.

I hope all this helps. Everything I have written to you is a result from seeing 10-20 race engines become paper weights. Most of these engines were producing more than 500 hp and most were within 100's of a second of the standing world records of the brackets they competed it. One was a Keith Black Crank for a 426 Hemi that detonated at 5,500 RPM on my buddies offshore racing boat. We were running first in our class and 4th overall when the crank exploaded less than a quarter kilometer from the finish line. That was due to the oil "roping". That is where I first learned about crank scrapping.

Consider some wheelie bars for your ride. I used them on my Fairlane. I suspect you are either over geared, you are launching at too high an rpm, or that your low end torque is too high.

Your clutch may have too much coefficient of drag (too much grab), but the easiest thing to do right now would be to retard your camshaft 4-6 degrees to put your torque curve up higher. Make sure you recheck your piston to valve clearance. Make sure to degree your cam, the grind may be off a few degrees and you might have it straight up but it is running as if you had it advanced. That is why we index every cam in every engine, so we get the thing dialed in so we know what our baseline is for when we start to make changes.

Keep up the good work, 9 second et's will be yours soon. Stay safe and sane! Most of all GOOD LUCK and don't forget the crank scrapper.

By the way, if you decide to try water injection, I used up 1 1/2 quarts running 9.23 ET's on gasoline, and 2 1/2 quarts running 7.6 ETs with dual stage progressive NOS.

Thanks Jim, I'm looking into both a crank scraper and a windage tray for my Moroso pan...

I think wheelie bars are a bad idea :p ...I wouldn't even consider them on a 9 sec car. I have an adjustable McLeod setup that allows me to adjust how hard the clutch engages... that will be one of the 'bugs' to work out of the new combo when it is completed... along with the strut/shock valving, etc.

I have ARP 1/2" head and main studs for the R-block, and had the stock block studded and girdled... I degreed my cam to the specs supplied with the cam card, and it was the first time doing so, and I did it over about 3-4 times to make sure I kept coming up with the same numbers... and did. This was in '99 and haven't degreed a cam since... so I'll have to go through all of that again when I decide on another grind.

Thanks Kevin for the info on the LE lubricants...

And Eric, it'd be nice to line up with you sometime, either ride will do, but I prefer you bring the Nova, of course. ;)

ultraflo....how big of a "HIT" where you putting through that motor? Hopefully my mex block will handle similar times!!

PS was your block filled?

I bet if you retarded the cam 4 to 6 degrees, you would be into the 9's. The biggest mistake racers make in engine building, is to think the race is won off the launch.

Everyone thinks that and the magazines say you 60 ft times and first 330 ft make or break a race. They may be right, but primarily for dragsters and pro stock cars that are running within tenths of a second from one another.

Our engines were built for top end power production. From 660 ft on is where a race is really won or lost. We used to do tricks, like run our final gear underdriven. So instead of a 1 to 1 final gear, we would run a 1.06 to 1 gear. That way the engine was always pulling against a mechanical advantage.

When you retard the cam, you rarely lose significant torque off the line, because typically you are launching at 4 to 5,000 RPM. But the extra power up top is really significant to getting into the 9's.

Another thing we learned is that short shifting first and second gears to get into third gear faster ended up cutting our times from 9.6 to 9.2. So we were shifting at 5500 RPM in first and second, and 7500 rpm in third. That was with a Jerico 4 speed. We changed to a C6 and then a Powerglide to get even more consistency. Running an automatic with a line lock and trans brake allowed us super repeatable 60 ft times. More importantly, it allowed us to vary rpm launch to correct for track temperature and traction conditions and still run our index. Even with a two speed or three speed slush box, we were still shifting from first to second at 5500 rpms. (we had a 5500 rpm stall converter).

Kevin's Nova friend may have a fast car, but just how many trophies did he pick up. We ran three years and lost just two races when we made the finals. That is alot of trophies, and enough money to almost pay for the car--but not for our time.....

Jim this is Kevin's Nova friend. Don't talk **** about my car man. If you think it's ugly keep your opinions to yourself. You talk alot of smack for somebody with 450+hp and only running 13.7 :rolleyes: It may be ugly but it will show you taillights all day long.

After seeing the new Dart blocks, I wish it had been available when I purchased my R302. A much better block and a LOT cheaper. Comes finished and ready to go. The R302 is a great block as well but the added machining bill makes it real pricey. I think we will see a drastic price drop in the R302's. If not they will be priced out of the market.

To jim_howard_pdx...you keep saying "our engines" and "we"...do you work for a performance house in Portland and if so who? Which car are you running at PIR and Woodburn?

Ron

I made just over 60 passes this year using the 200hp jets in a Nitrous Express single nozzle race system... without any hard block :eek: I have over 100 passes on the motor this year alone, and have been running the same long block since '99 on the street w/ the occasional use of the 150hp jets ;)

I know it's a gamble w/ both the stock block and a Mex block going into the 9's, or low 10's for that matter, and I was told to use hard block when assembling the combo in '98... but figured the car would see mostly street duty and had a goal of 10.50's with a 150hp shot..... so naturally I figured it wouldn't be a necessity at the time. I got bored w/ 10.50's one day and started in the 200hp jets and the rest is history (the block is anyhow, lol).

One other option on a stock block of course is the Cryo Freeze. I campaigned the same stock block and crank for 3 years at 600+ After a detonation, had to tear it down. There was not a scratch or imperfection in the block, although the head was toast and the piston was gone. It could have been re-used, but it was time to step up, and I went the R302 way. The chassis was certified, got my S/C, S/G license, and it is now running low 9.70's with no signs of any problems on a 150 shot. (Next season 250 shot, and drop some weight out of the car...3250 pounds now)

Ron

Well... it's a little late for that my friend ;) I have a nice Danny Bee beltdrive setup to play with cam timing on the next combo...
FWIW, there are quite a few things I could've done to get 9's, all of which would've led to an even earlier demise, I imagine :D

The Dart block is a just an amazing piece that I drool over every time I come across a picture of it... one day, I tell you :D

I've had the R-block sitting in a corner in my garage for a little over 2yrs. now... without the proper cash flow to do the work I had originally planned for it. So, now, I'm going to make it a hyd. roller 306 rather than a solid roller 331 ;)

I just recently became aware of the cryo-freeze after reading about it all of a couple days ago on 'another' message board ;)

...damn good idea, and sounds like it was a very effective process. I've had numerous 'instances' with the nitrous tune this year. However, I wasn't too far off the tune since I never fried any components (other than the block, of course, lol) or head gaskets throughout the course of the year... rich and lean pops/backfires etc.

Ron,

Are you running a solid block now, or wet?

We raced a 9.20 bracket for 3 years and the only parts we broke were three holes in the cylinder walls. Fords are notorious for thin wall cylinder castings. We sleeved the two cylinders and ran without issue another 2 1/2 years.

We replaced bearings every year, and piston rings too. These are cheap and easy to replace anyway.....

They key to not breaking parts is to eliminate detonation. Look into water injection. There is no better way to control combustion chamber events than water injection. It is simple, painless, it allows you to run much higher static compression than you could ordinarily get away with, and it keeps your combusion and exhaust system "steam cleaned".

Other than controlling the oil inside the crank case, there is no other single thing we did that provided access to great et's.

Jim,

Nope, did not fill the block. Archie Somers did all the machine work. After all the trouble you had with Bearings Inc. I figured I better stay away from them, and Archie does fantastic work. He finished the TEA CNC'd Victor Jr's for me, did all the flow work as well. Wilson Manifolds had the heads for 2 weeks, and they did the Super Victor now on the car.
As far as a crank scraper is concerned, I don't think one is yet available for the R version.
Well aware of detonation issues. With 12.4 compression just make sure you have the right fuel. I spent some time on the phone with Brandon Switzer and based on his recommendation I went with the VP C16 and it's working out great. Not even a hint of detonation.
I hear your motor was finished about 2 weeks ago. Congrats. How is it running?

Ron

HEY GUYS I WAS WONDERING COULD U ALL GIVE ME SOME ADVICE ON HOW TO GET INTO THE 10'S I HAVE A SET OF THE NEW TRICKFLOW HIGH PORTS. I DON'T KNOW IF I SHOULD GO WITH A STROKED 351 OR A STROKED 302 I KNOW I WANT TO STAY FUEL INJECTED. ANY ADVICE ON WHAT KIND OF MOTOR TO BUILD WOULD BE HELPFUL THANKS.

My neighbor has an 86 with a 351 stroked out to 377 inches. EFI, 9.8 to 1 compression, pump gas. Runs consistant hi 10.70's, low 10.80's.
I can ask for his combo if you would like, since he is moving up to a 408.

Ron

THANKS RON1 I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HIS COMBO THAT WAY I HAVE A IDEA ON HOW TO REACH 10'S I THOUGHT ABOUT BENNETT RACING 382 CUBIC INCH MOTOR THEY TOLD ME THAT IT WOULD RUN MID 10'S ON MOTOR AND 9'S WITH NITROUS.HAVE U HAD ANY EXPERIENCE WITH BENNETT RACING ? THANKS FOR YOUR HELP

I just sent him an email asking him to send the combo. Have no personal experience with Bennett, but as far as I know they have a good reputation and build quality parts. When it comes to stroker kits, I found no one better, in terms of price and quality, and on time delivery then www.jdsperformance.com in Florida.
If you decide to contact them let me know. Do you have a private email I can send the combo to when I get it? Better to take this off line.

Ron

my email is mustangboy05@yahoo.com
i also have yahoo messagener
and icq#19104886

thanks for the help

Hey Ron, I've been looking around and found that Canton has both a crank scraper and windage tray available for the R-block... I was also told that FPS has one available as well, haven't yet confirmed that one though. ;)

Thanks for the help ultraflow. I just found out Canton has no web site yet. One thing I wanted to mention to you when you do your buildup, I have had very good success with gaskets from Cometic. www.cometic.com They make a MLS (Multi Layer Steel) composite that works great on the R302. You have to call them and the set is made specifically for you. If your bore is lets say 4.040, the gasket is made to that specific size. It is a bit spendy but re-useable. They claims up 15 times for Dyno applications. I also know a lot of the Pro 5.0 guys are using them.

Thanks again and I will check out FPS.

Ron

I must say I am very impressed with the group on this thread.

As for crank scrappers, it is very very simple to make your own. I used to be able to get titanium sheet stock when I was building heat shields for electronics. The stuff was very thin, and very firm. You can probably get some stainless steel stuff pretty easy.

For kit strokers, please look into probe as well. What I like about them is that they will customize your stroker kit for exactly what you want to do. They use ROMAC balancers, which I think is one of the best high rpm balancers for FORDS that I have ever used.

I am especially impressed with their light weight pistons. I really like one kit they did for a friend of mine. The pistons, pins, and rods weighed just 467 grams for a 408 displacement engine. The owner is hunting for the mid 7's on NOS. The 467 grams allows the engine to reciprocate safely to 10,000 RPM.

I cannot remember the manufacturer of the crank, but it was about 1,850 dollars machined. It was built to run 7's at 10,000 RPM. Everything about the crank was gorgeous. Running the ultra light weight pistons and rods allowed us to knife edge the crank AND have it balanced. Ususally when you knife edge a crank, you are not left with enough counterbalance material to use mallory metal to get the engine balanced. The knife edging is critical in the 8 second brackets. Without it, you are just waiting to grenade the crank. It is not a matter of if, but when....

My street rod 358 is back together. The compression is 9.75 to 1. The cam is an Edelbrock RPM unit installed straight up. Later we will try it 2, 4, and 6, degrees retarded. I did alot of extra porting work on my heads this time. I kept the bowls nearly stock less the gubbers I cut off. I also tear dropped the valve guide supports. I widened the ports to 1 5/16 wide and 2 1/4 inches tall. This is just a quarter inch shorter than the 428 ports I ran at 9.23 seconds. I like the trick flow heads even better than the 428 heads. They have better cooling jackets and they do not store heat like cast iron. The cfm flow on these is just stellar for a street engine. My computer predicts 12.00 second quarter mile times with slicks and our 3.25 gears. I figure we will probably be around 12.19 to 12.29 which puts us in the company of 12 cylinder Ferrari's and Lamborghini's. This is a really great street rod engine guys. I am happy to share everything I have done. Only our gas mileage stinks. I might try to get a Holley 900 CFM fuel injector and a victor jr intake. That would put me at 435 HP and about 15 mpg with the C4. It is really time for us to step this car up to a Tremec or a T56 tranny. We could possibly get 16-18 MPG with a good overdrive transmission and fuel injection.

Right now I am not happy with my ignition curve. I have to set initial at 2 degrees to keep maximum advance at 31 degrees. The engine really struggles with this so we run it at 5 now, and keep our foot out of the accelerator. I plan to recurve it this week. I want to have an initial 10-12 degrees advance at idle, and have the advance go up slowly to about 3,800 RPM and max at 30-31 degrees. This is what Denny Aldridge recommended for the car, and I think he is right on target. Ron you probably know Denny. You other guys will just have to trush me when I say he really knows how to button up a 427 SOHC engine!!!!

Yes Jim, I do know Denny. Since I will be Amber's future father-in-law, I know him quite well.
They were surprised that you had already Dyno'd the motor and had your HP numbers already.
As far as Probe, good stuff. My JE's came in at 458 grams with a .600 dome. Dampners? ATI Super Dampner is my product of choice.

Ron

Ron1, here's a link for ya sir...

http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/...pro_power.html

Hopefully, the windage tray will work with the Moroso T-sump pan I already have (which has a sort of generic crank scraper incorporated into it's design)... like Jim stated, I could always make my own scraper. Also, I could always modify the windage tray, as I usually end up modifying everything I buy aftermarket anyhow, lol.

About the head gaskets, I've read nothing but good things about cometic, although I didn't realize they were 'custom' gaskets... which in my mind, is a very good thing. I'm just wondering if I will still need to plug the holes in the deck of the R-block for said gaskets. I was planning on tapping all of them and then drilling the center out of the one's that feed coolant to the heads, something along the lines of a 3/16" hole... undecided at this point, haven't even gotten around to de-burring the block yet, so I'm not in a real big hurry. I'm also debating on whether or not I'm going to use a different piston design.... depends on the money situation, really. ;)

I'm with Ron1 on the choice of damper... ATI Super Damper is what I will be using on the next combo, as I ran a Fluidampr on this last setup... they're hard to beat for a motor that operates under 6000rpm. ATI's own graph showing the difference between two of their own dampers vs. the Fluidampr has the Fluidampr walking all over the competition until the 6000rpm range, and then the Super Damper takes the prize from there on up while the others effectively lose their ability to function properly. I'd like to see where the Romac unit fits into the spectrum...

I'd love to run a Sonny Bryant or equiv. crank, but I'm stuck with the Trick Flow unit for now (beats the hell out of the stocker, at the very least)... I've seen some of the knife edged and polished cranks that've come out of his shop, and they are just simply beautiful! ...I'm going to have to start doing my homework for the combo after the one I'm just getting started on now ;) ...as always, I appreciate the input gentlemen. :)

-RLS

RLS..thank you for that link. I will drop an e-mail to see if scraper will work with my pan, and the R302. Presently run an 8 quart Moroso with kick outs.
As far as the plugging the holes in the block...no need to worry on that issue. The Cometic solves that issue. I have had no problems. (Did not have any issues with an early set of Felpro's either)
As far as fluid dampner are concerned..they are very good, but what most people do not realize, is that they can be temperature affected, and react differently on a cold day vs. hot day and that is something you do not want on a balanced motor.

Thanks again for the link..

Ron

Ron,

Denny is great. He and I agree on a great many things. He has seen more broken busted engines than I have, but in southern california where I grew up and raced, I was surrounded by racing giants. It was in a little piece of hot rod heaven. I had Ed Iskedarian grind custom camshafts and build high rpm push rods for my 428 scj racer. I had Chet Herbert sell me his #2 cam that held the current 428 scj bracket for 17 months straight. And it goes on and on, the list of racing legends I got a chance to wrench with.

I had three friends with world record running Hemis, I had two friends campaigning LS 6's and 7's in the 10's. I had two friends running SOHC engines that I wrenched with. I had one friend campaigning an Olds 400 small block at the same 9.25 index as I raced, but he was using direct ported NOS and I was engine only.

I had two friends racing Clevelands, both at 11 second brackets. One very close friend campaigned a pinto with a 550 HP Cleveland and FMX transmission in a mid 9 bracket.

I had two friends racing Pantaras, one set the world record for a gasoline powered turbo ford engine at Bonneville. It has been broken since then, but stood up for 6-8 years.

I canyon raced at Mulhulland, Laurel, and Topanga Canyons. I got to know two outstanding canyon racers. One ran a 135,000 dollar turbo porsche and the other ran a 40,000 LS7 corvette (which unfortunately went over the cliff-driver lived!).

I had two friends autocrossing Cobra kit cars, one with a stroked 460 with aluminum super cobra jet heads and the other with a 427 side oiler using a 428 crank which net 454 cubic inches. Both were well over 400 hp on the rear wheels which in a Cobra can be hairy to say the least.

By the way, the hp and torque numbers I am quoting on my 358 block are projections based on Edelbrock's 358 engine they dyno'd at 401 HP. My trick flow heads out of the box deliver 6 more HP than the RPM Edelbrock heads, and with the port work I have performed I figure another 15 HP to be fairly conservative. I know my modified Holley will out HP the Edelbrock 750 they used on their dyno. But I would rather post conservative numbers than lie. By the way, my car beats a 305 HP Cobra by more than a second at the Quarter mile, and that was with all 16 of my valve guides shot to s h i t. Ask Tom, he will tell you I have never seen worst valve guides in all my years of racing. One of my best friends used to be the head cylinder porter at Valley Head Service. I just wish he could have seen these guides. I must have been sucking a good quart of oil every 4-500 miles from the guides alone.

With the fresh engine, good sealing, cleaner intake charge, a more rod oriented cam shaft, I think low 12's should be easy on slicks.

However, until I actually dyno the engine, and get some passes on the engine I am just bench racing upon what I know to be reliable guestimates. I do not have the money for dyno time now.

Denny has been really, really good to me. I have not found a better more knowledgeable performance shop here in the Portland area. I told Amber and Tom that I will not allow people to bad mouth him when. Most complain that he is too slow, or that he is expensive. That is not a reason to bad mouth a race shop.

Denny will tell you that I have patiently waited for weeks for him to do stuff I could get done in Los Angeles in a few days. He is well worth the wait. Denny is a cut above anyone I know in town, and TOM and AMBER have fun teasing me. D a m n, I am so very easy to tease.

I know Denny to be fair, with STRONG knowledge about racing and building reliable engines. I give Denny my highest rating of any Ford Motorsport dealer I have ever worked with. That is not something to snear at, because down in Los Angeles, there were some AWESOME Ford Motorsport people I visited weekly.

I get a kick out of Denny. He never brags. He is such a great guy. A couple of weeks back, he showed me the 427 SOHC engine he built while he was helping me with my rebuild. You should have seen how proud he was figuring out how to help the customer with the oiling issues. His smile was "soul" deep. Tom told me later that the engine fired right up and sounded different than any other FORD he had ever heard, more like a big block chevy. NO a Cammer sounds only like a Cammer. It is a breed all its own.

Ron, I think it is cool to talk with you. I have not found many people running in the 9's here in Portland. I bet there are less than 20 cars in the area capable of these times. When I raced Pamona, 9 second cars were a dime a dozen. Competition was fierce, and some of the cars were flat out nasty consistent.

Good luck on the crank scrapper. I would give Mustangs Plus a call. Their number is 800-999-4289. They sell 302 and 351 crank scrappers for 14.00. You can easily modify these to fit your rod and rod bolts. ....I would try to help you...., but Denny would warn you not to let me touch your engine. I am bad luck. LOL

I have broken 3 street rod motors in the last 6 years. I was sure each was going to live a long and health life of 200,000 miles or more......

Happy racing. Email me at any time at jim_howard_pdx@yahoo.com. I am looking for a good Ford club to join. Let me know if you know of any. Now that my kids are getting all grown up, it is time to build my next project.

I am happy to take you for a drive in my Stang. I would like Denny to drive it, but he is probably WAY too busy to give me that honor.

Dang Jim, all your posts are like ten pages long.lol Use short quick reply's.lol

Eric,

That is the first knowledgeable post you have made.

LOL

Yes I am a word hog.

LOL

But, I would be still at the tree while your Nova flew across the finish line looking at the 6.8 1/8 mile times at 110 mph. Darn, that engine of yours is a MISSLE.

You said this was a 406 short block? Are you using the GM 18 degree NASCAR heads?

My buddie with the Olds 400 was running Brownfield aluminum heads. I think they were purchased later by either Brodix or some other big racing name. These were the first small block heads by any manufacturer that would turn 2 hp per cubic inch with NOS. That engine ran consistent 9.2's. It actually bent the frame on a Z 28 even with a 6 point roll cage and full frame. The engine ended up in a 57 Chevy and man did that chassis hook up well. The wheel stands were so impressive.

I would love to wrench with you when you first run it on NOS but I am on the other side of the universe.

By the way, I don't really think Nova's are ugly. We ran a 70 Nova with an LS 6 engine. We could never make it sing though. Our time slips were in the 10.1 to 10.3 range. My friend liked the simplicity of a single plane intake. That decision probably limited his times more than any other factor. A tunnel ram would have put him squarely in the 9's. Those LS 6 engines were flat out made for racin.

Thanks for the comments. No the heads on my nova are Brodix. Their ported/polished and all that good stuff. Only Nascar type heads that i have on my vehicle are in my 420ci windsor that's going into my 02GT when it's finished. They are just NASCAR takeoffs.

Well Erik,

I get a laugh when I think about all the over 400 cubic inch big blocks I built so we could run in the 9's and 10's. With the current heads from Dart, TF, Brodix, Edelbrock, Canfield, and others it seems like 9's are just a matter of properly preparing the chassis, and even that is becoming relatively routine. Then you look at specialty oem heads like the Yates heads, all the Ford Motorsport stuff, the remaked Hemi's, the racing Chevy heads, really building power is almost like building something from LEGO. Just find someone running consistent and copy it.

I would love to hear more about your 420 windsor sometime soon. Are you using the Dart block? When I tore apart my 358 a few weeks back, I chastised myself for not putting in a main bearing girdle last time. It is not that 400 HP is going to do alot of core distortion, but anything you can do on a Ford block to keep those main caps tight and secure is just critical. That is one reason I liked racing the 428 scj block. We cross drilled it and ran three seasons with the main bearings and journals looking practically new. Only the rod bearings showed the typical abuse of 700 ft pounds of torque.

We were shocked that the two sleeved pistons ran so well at 9.2. The shop that did the work told me he had 190 mph 427 engines similarly sleeved running upwards of 8,500 RPM without issue. We figured to run the sleeved block long enough to find a side oiler 427. But after the end of the season tear down, we determined no real need to pay the big bucks. A 427 side oiler even back in the 70's was running 3,500.00 prepared.