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aluminum heads
anyone used pro comp heads? would you go w/ a new set of pro comps or a used set of twisted wedge trickflows?
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Re: aluminum heads
I dont think i ever heard of them, are you talking about "pro topline"?
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Re: aluminum heads
Are Pro Comps made off shore? (Taiwan?) I would choose made in USA top brands such as TrickFlow, Edelbrock, Air Flow Research.
Rev |
Re: aluminum heads
If I'm thinkin right (which doesn't happen very often) Pro-Comps are AUSTRALIAN. Been lots of cool speed stuff coming from down under lately, like my new intake! :D :eek:
Anyways, don't know much about them, but had to add my $.02! |
Re: aluminum heads
Jester
Are these the Racing Head Service name?? If so they are the New Zealand stuff When Pro-Topline bought them out they sent all the stuff to China and the quality disappeared. After that faild RHS bought the Pro-topline and kept it in China under that name for awhile and finally moved it back to New Zealand. Today we must be very careful of what we buy because much of it comes from China or Tiwan. You could also consider Brodix Denny@JDS INduction Products |
Re: aluminum heads
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Didn't know they sold the rights to that stuff to China. How about the distributors and stuff they were building, all that stuff too or just the heads? |
Re: aluminum heads
I would stay away from that stuff. I've been lookin at the Edelbrock Vic. Jr's heads lately and from what I hear, they offer the most "bang for the buck" at about $400 less than most other aftermarket companys.
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Re: aluminum heads
I am presently doing a set of RHS Iron Ford In-Line heads I'll let you know how thay turn out!!
As far as I know RHS bought the shootin-match But I'm an AFR & Brodix dealer and have been since 1980 Don't you guys get tired of the "New-Stuff" that has yet to prove itself and just want to be the ginny-pig to have the first set? Remember whan the TFS T-W head first hit the market and every body had to have a set - soon they found out what a big mistake that was when the guides gave up after about 200 miles. Of-Course they got it together after awhile but gee-wizz what a fiasco it was until that got straightened out!!! Denny@JDS Induction Products |
Re: aluminum heads
82GT is lookin at RPM's, and talking to the 'higher up ranks" like Street Bandit and the like, they like them because they flow good outta the box, and I guess there's TONS of material in the casting, so they can get hogged out HUGE.
Now, that being said. I'm a big Canfield fan. Trying (without much luck, long story) to get 82GT a set of the same Canfield's that I'm running. This is a "young" casting, but it's already been tested by quite a few "real" racers out there, as well as a few street terrors such as myself. It's a great casting, performs very well out of the box, and a little bit of porting wakes them RIGHT UP. Not really on the market yet, but it is. Chapter 2 of that "long story". LOL Have you dealt with any Canfield's Denny? The owner is a personal friend of mine, so I believe what he tells me. But I'd honestly like to hear an unbiased opinion if you have one! |
Re: aluminum heads
One additional note on Pro Comp.
They are the gloriously tacky company that copies just about every other USA made manufacturers parts. Not quality wise, but in exact looks. Pro Comp makes cheap Chinese made distributors and Multiple Spark ignition boxes. MSD was successful recently in getting a court order to make Pro Comp stop manufacturing their blatant rip off of the 6AL box. Pro Comp also makes an exact look alike knock off of Flex-A-Lite's 5.0 electric fan. They damage companies like MSD, Edelbrock, and Flex-A-Lite by selling an inferior product that looks identical to products of companies that actually invested research and development costs into a good product, not just in stolen sales but when Pro Comp products go bad, the consumer who doesn't notice the brand difference will think "all the red ignition boxes" are junk. Think I'm wrong? Ask Flex-A-Lite how many tech calls they get from customers complaining about their Flex-A-Lite 185 fans that are defective only to have to waste the Flex-A-Lite tech's time when the Flex-A-Lite tech realizes and then has to explain that what the customer bought was a Pro Comp ripoff. |
Re: aluminum heads
wow lots of conflicting info here. i dont think that a new name brand can compete w/ a name that is already proven itself, but it has to start some where i guess. as far as i have read on the internet pro rop line is rhs now and procomp is made in austalia. 82 gt have you had experience w/ pro comp? or do you know of someone who has?
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Re: aluminum heads
Jester
About Canfield's - yes I have had some experience with them - have thay got their quality control up to par yet? As far as the flow capabilities are concerned - Yes they are excellent - at least the ones that I worked on, which were very similar to the TFS St-Heat heads. If they have the quality control fixed I would gladly put them on my list of heads that I sell. Denny@JDS Induction Products |
Re: aluminum heads
what goes into quality control w/ a pair of heads. i can see assembled heads, but say you buy a set bare and buy the manley valves that you want and springs etc.you know you have good parts and dont have to worry about that and the heads have a good seal and your pushrods are correct so you dont wear out the guides what else is to worry about?worse case you have some castings that can aleays have new and good seats and guides installed that you picked up cheap that flow good and are aluminum right , or am i off ?
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Re: aluminum heads
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Yeah, you're right. I think RHS has only recently bought them back. I haven't had any experience with them but some people over on another forum have had nightmare results with them. If it was MY hard earned money, I would buy something that has already proven itself. Right now, the best bang for the buck heads are the Edelbrocks. Their reputation precedes themselves. |
Re: aluminum heads
can you point me in the direction of those forums so i can read up on them to see what kinda problems they have had?
thanks |
Re: aluminum heads
Denny, Canfield has the quality control UP THERE! I've seen the shop, and without devulging info I'm not supposed to, they are actually "finishing" castings from other companies. BIG companies, some of which were already mentioned in this thread.
No coincidence that the TFS heads look similar to Canfield's. There's actually a law suit over that. I don't want to get into a bunch of "he said she said" BS here, but just to let you know that there ARE issues between those 2 companies. Nuff said on that. I would LOVE to send you these Canfields I have so you can check them out. Top notch the whole way around. The ONLY bitch I have, is keeping exhaust gaskets on them, cuz the ports are so ******* huge, that there is literally almost NO gasket between the port and the header bolt hole. On the rest of this thread, regarding Pro-Comp/RHS. Stay away from the China Jap crap. When they were "down under" I heard good things. ALOT of good things, and the Austrailian/New Zealand Ford boys are still making some good things down there!!! I did some research, and 82GT is absolutely 100% on the ball. When it went to China/Taiwan/Japan/Riceland, the quality went STRAIGHT down! Think about it this way. In order for me to buy a set of Canfield heads, I have to spend 120 hours at work. My job's NOT easy. Those Pro-Comps? Have to spend 80 hours at work. If I spend TWO WEEKS at work, for these heads, and they DON'T perform, and the company doesn't help me out, I'm gonna be PISSED! USA ALL THE WAY! Stick with the proven companies, it's YOUR money, spend it ONCE, and spend it wisely! ;) |
Re: aluminum heads
excellent point.
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Re: aluminum heads
Bruiser:
Pro-Action/Pro-Topline had the same issues with quality control that Canfield has/had. Pro-Action Casting's shifted so bad that water leaks were everwhere, I remember sending back 5 sets of the 23* heads just to get 1 good set. With the 14* heads we had similar difficulties, some of the heads didn't even have water passages in them at all. We had a set of Canfield 23* Chevy's on a boat engine, made it through the dyno pulls and were putting on the exhaust manifolds and we thought a bolt had stripped out. When we took the manifold off the exhaust port came with it. I had ported 2 sets of canfield Ford heads for seperate customers, and both sets leaked on the outside of the heads, below the exhaust ports but above the bolt holes. Supposedly RHS has spent a considerable amount of money solving those problems, I haven't heard any more stories like the above about Canfield and I don't like telling these stories in public but, because, because, because Jester - Thanks For the great vote of confidence in both Canfield and myself, Yes please stick to USA Only Parts. I'm glad that Canfield finally got it together!!! Denny@JDS Induction Products |
Re: aluminum heads
You know I've read some bad things about pro-action/Pro-Topline...
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Re: aluminum heads
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[big sigh] I would have to dig through their achives on that. Jester, I have heard about canfield doing casting for other companys. That tells you how hard I've been doing my homework on heads.... :D |
Re: aluminum heads
Here's some good reading for ya. It basically confirms what has already been said about Pro Comp and some other things I didn't know about them.
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...ner/index2.php |
Re: aluminum heads
no big deal if you have to go through the archives , i was just wondering and trying to learn a little more for myself to help other people who might face the same issues that dont go on these forums.thanks everyone.
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Re: aluminum heads
Brian
What are you really looking for in a set of heads for your car? Did you read my thread about "How to pick the best head for your engine?" It's more than just an air-flow concern, because the engine is a dynamic machine, consequently all the parts must be married together in order to work in the way that you want it to. This compromise of components must be sorted out before you ever buy any part, because you have to know the limitations of of your wallet as well as what you intend to do with the engine. Similarly if you intend to drive it on the street there are even more compromises to contend with, not he least of which is the awful gas. I understand that you have done you research, on heads but how to fit them to the engine is an altogether different set of conditions. Denny@JDS Induction Products |
Re: aluminum heads
yeah I did read it awhile ago..pretty good stuff. I know it's all about flow velocity and not just how big the runners are and other factors, of course.
Here's a good question for you: How large are the runners of a stock 351w head('74) I'm figuring I only need about 170-185cc runners for whatever heads I go with, if I keep my current cam. I think the 205-210 heads are overkill for my setup. I just want to make the right choice because I don't want to end up with something that's too much or something that's no better than what I already have. A 6500-6800 shift point would suite me fine. What's your professional opinion on what I need. I'd like to run high 11's n/a but if it ends up costing me more than what I can afford or willing to pay then I may as well just keep the nitrous and spray my way into the 11's....right? |
Re: aluminum heads
Brian
Production cast iron heads are in the 130 to 150 cc range, if you want power in the 2500 to 6500 range then you have to stick with a 1.940 intake valve. I use 80% of the that area to decide how big to make the Int port at the P-Rod squeeze. We can make 400 to 450 hp with production iron heads, at a cost of about $2K. A good set of aluminum heads that will do the same thing will cost about the same money. Your biggest problem is that you have a carbureted engine, and can't take advantage of the "Long-Runner" EFI manifold, which will bring up the low end of the power curve. Along with that you could also get some extra long (40") headers, that would also help this low end torque problem in the 2500 to 6500 range - (See The Engine Masters Challange). CFM @ 302 X 6500/3456=568 CFM @ 347 = 652.6 CFM @ 351 = 665.2 See - Now if you can find a Tunnel-Ram - mill off the carb flanges on the top and weld plates to it to cover the holes. then put 2 Mikuni-Weber or similar on either side of the plenum and wa-la you have a longer runner intake!!! As for the exhaust all you have to do is make some extensions for the primary tubes, get a new set of "Merged" collectors that fit the new diameter extensions and there you have it. This is not the ideal way to accomplish it but it will serve the purpose well enough. If the 2 side-draft carbs are too expensive then think about 1 55mm side draft. Denny@JDS Induction Products |
Re: aluminum heads
CFM @ 302 X 6500/3456=568
CFM @ 347 = 652.6 CFM @ 351 = 665.2 please explain |
Re: aluminum heads
also how does the push rod pinch affect a head. both my local apeed shops told me thats not that important, all the power comes from the bowl area. how do you determine if it should be made wider?
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Re: aluminum heads
I dont know what forums are out there talking about those heads but I am also in
www.moddedmustangs.com www.allfordmustangs.com www.mustangevolution.com each site has good info |
Re: aluminum heads
i will be shure to check them all out.
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Re: aluminum heads
1979 check pm
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Re: aluminum heads
got it, hit you back.
thanks |
Re: aluminum heads
Bruiser
That is the formula for determining the required CFM of any engine: CFM = Displacement, times, RPM divided by the constant 3456 Thus if Brian is running a 302 CID engine and only wants to turn it 6500 RPM's then all the carb he needs is 568 CFM - By doing this he will increase the throttle response of his engine, with the added benifit of the carb being able to meter the fuel much better because of the high velocity through the boosters. Thats why I suggested the Weber/Mikuni type carb - because of its higher adjustibility!!! Denny@JDS Induction Products |
Re: aluminum heads
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I don't have a 302, it's a 351w. I also don't have a problem with low end power, it's the high end my engine needs. |
Re: aluminum heads
check pm again 1979
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Re: aluminum heads
Brian
Thats good you have a 351 Have you looked at the Ford Parts book lately? It seems that they have some iron heads the N-351* & N-352* bare they are $375.00 ea Retail. Don't remember the chamber cc's but thats an easy fix, with 2.02 & 1.625 valves this should increase your top end considerably, if the cam you are running is correct. But a cam is cheeper than the heads so over the winter you can change it to see. Lunati 51012 HYD Roller 292-232-340 Int & 300-242-350 Exh W/1.6 .544-.560 They grind it on a 112 I've run them on a 106 - 108 with no problems. Next up = 301-242-376 Int & 311-252-370 Exh Same here 106 to 110 Next up = 311-252-370 Int & 319-260-370 Exh Ditto XE-274H Extreme Energy cam Int 274-230-.324 Exh 286-236-.326 on 112 W/1.6 518 & 521 Want more top end with your heads put that 252-260 Lunati Hyd Roller in it - Have it ground on 108 LSA. :) Denny@JDS Induction Products |
Re: aluminum heads
head doctor-
what cam would you use if i were to go w/ vic jr heads or a trick flow 195cc high port head? i cam across a comp cam 31-640-5 w/ a 10.5:1 piston based on 60cc chambers, performer rpm air gap intake and bbk long tubes. would you use a dif cam |
Re: aluminum heads
Bruiser
Thats not enough info to give you a recomendation Need: CID Flow @ Lift Car Used for? Car Weight RPM Range Trans Type Type of induction (FI or Carb) Real C/R not an estimate Denny@JDS Induction Products |
Re: aluminum heads
msd 6al for ignition
flow of heads advertised is 300 at .600 79 mustang 2900 lbs 6500-6700 shift point c-4 (wont buy mt stall till i have the cam to be shure what stall speed to use) carb 750 dbl pmp and not sure what c/r is-sorry |
Re: aluminum heads
also 351 cid
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Re: aluminum heads
if c/r is comp-ratio then 10.5:1
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Re: aluminum heads
Bruiser
1) How did you arrive at that C/R? (No guestimates please) 2) What do you use this car for? 3) If you know what you use the car for then you also know what converter to get A) If it's a race only car then you need an 7" or 8" converter W/ 5000 to 5500 RPM stall B) If it's a S/S car then you need a 8" or 9" converter W/ 2500 to 3500 stall C) If it's a street only car then you need a 10" converter W/ 2500 to 3000 stall 4) How do you plan on running 10.5 to 1 C/R on pump gas, when the limitation is 9.5? 5) It's not the static-compression ratio that's important it's the running or pumping pressure, which is determined by the timing events of the cam. On pump gas the limit for this is around 185 to 220 depending on how much ign-timing you run. We have found that 30 to 34 degrees of total timing works best on a S/S engine & pump-gas at about 175 to 195 psi with the cams we run. 6) There are several cams in the post for Brian any one of those will work for you, but in order for me to configure the cam correctly I need real info not guestimates!!! Denny@JDS Induction Products |
Re: aluminum heads
i do know that this is a street strip car and i had planed a 3000-3500 stall speed. as for the c/r i can only give you static and no i dont plan to run straight pump gas , at a min 50/50 w/ race fuel as this will be driven fair weather only. im not sure what to tell you for the compression, only what i have i have been told.and w/o a cam i can not get cranking pressure.total chamber volume is 66.50 w/ the piston releifs if that is no help than i understand, and thanks for the help w/ my post.
dan |
Re: aluminum heads
Bruiser, your pistons would almost have to be domed for that kind of CR with those large chamber heads....or are they?
HeadDoctor, one of those cams you suggested for me, the 274XE, is the cam I already have. I need either more cam or better heads...or both. I would have thought that the heads I have, with the 1.94/1.60 valves, would be good enough for at least low 12's...maybe not. Would I get more HP just by switching to a solid cam with similiar specs? |
Re: aluminum heads
Brian
I know that I put it up there so those reading this thread could compare the one you have to the ones that I listed. "Want more top end with your heads put that 252-260 Lunati Hyd Roller in it - Have it ground on 108 LSA. :) " ( Put it in at 100 ICL ) Dan Static C/R is the ratio of the cylinder volume at TDC verses the volume at BDC Example: 351 CID /8=43.875 cu. in. times 16.38716= 718.986645 cc's At BDC TDC= Chamber vol, + Gasket vol, + valve reliefs, + deck clearance, + distance to top ring. If you have a dome piston then you have to subtract that vol from the above. Chamber= 66.5 Gasket= 9.3 - 4.100X.043 Piston= 7.0 - No dome 2 eyebrows Deck = 0.0 Tot = 82.8 cc + 719 = 801.8/82.8= 9.68 to 1 Engine tech is all about the math learn the math and you can learn the engine dynamics!!! Denny@JDS Induction Products |
Re: aluminum heads
i have a 60 cc head and pistons w/ 2 releifs at 6.50 cc and comes up to 10.5-1
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Re: aluminum heads
Dan
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Ok - So put the same cam in it that I recomended for Brian or use the 51012 & have it custom ground on a 106 LSA and put it in on a 100 ICL When you check the heads out be sure they have the good valve springs that have at least 135 LBS closed and 175 LBS open. I use Isky 8005-A springs for these HYD Roller cams set the height at 1.9 :) Denny@JDS Induction Products |
Re: aluminum heads
175lbs open?
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Re: aluminum heads
Pro Comp Is Austrilla, I Have A Set--210cc Intake, 60cc Combustion, Manley Valves, These Are Just Like The Victor Jr Excatly The Same Specs, These Heads Are Actually Good Heads!
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Re: aluminum heads
Dan
Sorry Bout that 375 open |
Re: aluminum heads
thats what i thought , but just wanted to be sure.
thanks head doctor, you are very helpful. antyates- you have had good luck w/ these heads? |
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