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Aluminum RRs good for only 20-30K miles??
I read this in one of the Summit catalogs in the Professor Overdrive question. Is this true? My FMS aluminum roller rockers have 55k on them. Should I be worried? Anyone have any experience with failures?
------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible |
I don't really see why they would wear. All the contact points are hardened aren't they?
I've never heard of that. I would also certainly think you'd begin hearing an audible tick if something was going bad. |
I also read that in the catalog. I think there has to be something wrong with that answer. I don't see why an aluminum rocker wouldn't last as long as a steel one, the aluminum is thicker in strategic places to make up for being a weaker metal and the rollers in them should be the same as in a steel. The only possible disadvantage I could see is that the weaker metal could crack at the pivot point or at roller tip.
------------------ 65 fastback 347 DFI injected, TFS heads, MSD, cable T5 w/Hurst, 4.11 9", tc subframe conns, custom traction bars, griffen alum. radiator torq thrust D's, and a daily warrior |
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What about the Helix TB spacer in the Mustang section advertising 20HP? Jim what do ou think of that? ------------------ Check Out My Site 91GT,Holley SysteMAX II Kit-Heads 2.02" x 1.60" port matched to a 1262,Anderson N-61,30#,76mm C&L,75mm Accufab, Full MAC, No A/C or PS or emissions, 12" K&N Filter,RNH PERFORMANCE Ram Air,Ron Davis Radiator,Full Suspension, SPEC stage III clutch, Lakewood SFI bell, S&W 8pt "X" brace,JAZ seats,3:73's,Welds..etc,4:30's and 33 splines coming very soon! [b]12.16 @ 113.5, 1.78 |
Unit, they sure looked hardened to me. All of the bearings are made out of steel. The only thing that's aluminum is the body of the rocker. I wonder if Summit is going to get a lot of calls about that "advice".
Rick, I don't buy it for a second. With all the bends that air has to take getting into the combustion chamber, there is no way a vortex would even persist long enough to "improve fuel atomization". I also don't buy that air velocity is increased. This is clearly targeted at people who think like ricers. ------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible |
I haven't read the article you're talking about, but I would tend to agree with it. I honestly can't remember if I read it in a catalog insert, was told by my number one parts man or if I was taught it in my college engines class, but at somepoint in my career, I was educated to the fact that the biggest downside to aluminum full roller rockers was their lifespan. I wish I could remember when and where I learned this, but it must have been a while ago because to me, this was common knowledge. Wrenching on engines with them installed over the years confirmed this. I might question the 20k - 30k mileage statement, but I'm sure they're just averaging. In a full race 1/4 mile engine, aluminum RR's need to be replaced at seasons end due to wear, and they probably have seen less than 15 miles. In a mild street/strip application, 25k miles is pushing the limit. In a daily driver that doesn't see a track more than 2 or 3 times a year, 50k miles would be the maximum expected lifespan. This doesn't mean they can't last longer, just don't expect them to. We replace the aluminum RR's in our Sprint car mid-season, after maybe 75 miles. They are noticably worn and loose when we replace them, but are by no means shot. We just have alot riding on the engine remaining "tight", and have stricter standards. Basically, it boils down to the fact that there are alot more contact points to wear, and once wear starts, it accelerates rapidly. In NASCAR, they are thrown away after every race. Jim, if you've got 55k miles on yours, I would back them off and inspect them, along side a brand new one if possible. I think you'll be surprised.
Take care, -Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop http://homepage.mac.com/pkrwud/.Pict...sc./MyMac.jpeg My teams site: Jim Porter Racing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. |
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Between the trunion and the cross shaft. Check for any up/down and/or side to side play, as well as any "wobble". Next, check for any overly worn areas on the roller tip. Check it for out of round and/or flat spots. Last, check for wear at the push rod contact point. From personal experience, the wear I've seen most common is excessive wear in the trunion with the needle bearings. One or more wear faster, creating a slight out of round condition. Once this starts, it wears rapidly until it becomes egg shaped. Actually reaching this point is unlikely because you would have heard it long before it became visually egg shaped. There shouldn't be any play between the shaft and the trunion. If there is, wear has become too excessive. The best way to see what I mean is by comparing one of your old ones with a new, unused one, if possible.
Take care, -Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop http://homepage.mac.com/pkrwud/.Pict...sc./MyMac.jpeg My teams site: Jim Porter Racing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. |
I have never heard of that before, but I don't buy it at all!
------------------ '90 5.0 LX - heads, intake, cam, fuel delivery, gears, full exhaust, pulleys, ignition, drag springs, front brake upgrade, a/c delete, K&N cone filter charger.......and much more! 1/4 mile: 12.29 @115 60': 1.78 |
They do wear. The roller bearings in them get sloppy. I found that when I compared mine to a new set.
------------------ 1988 Mustang GT 11.8 @ 123 (7/14/01) 11.5 @ 120 (9/14/01) 1992 BadAzz Wrangler 1993 Explorer See my car at: www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?179 |
This has got pretty damn interesting, I guess it also has to do with if they have been properly set as well. I wuld think that a pedestal mount would be more acceptable to wear since it relies on the shims, rather then a stud mount which relies on push rod length and pressure? Am I thinking correctly? I'll have to inspect mine this winter when it's apart. I wonder if they are rebuilable if I find the bearings?
Jim- I didn't buy that whole Vortex thing either just wanted to know if anyone saw it http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/smile.gif and laughed like I did http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/tongue.gif ------------------ Check Out My Site 91GT,[bSpeedbrain ECU[/b],Holley SysteMAX II Kit-Heads 2.02" x 1.60" port matched to a 1262,Anderson N-61,30#,76mm C&L,75mm Accufab, Full MAC, No A/C or PS or emissions, 12" K&N Filter,RNH PERFORMANCE Ram Air,Ron Davis Radiator,Full Suspension, SPEC stage III clutch, Lakewood SFI bell, S&W 8pt "X" brace,JAZ seats,3:73's,Welds..etc,4:30's and 33 splines coming very soon! <B |
I'd have to say if that's the case, then somebody needs to design a better aluminum rocker. Anything that does not have direct contact with moving parts should not wear, and anything that does should be made from hardened material.
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I guess if I'm probably going to be replacing them soon, what would be a more durable solution?
------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible |
Damn Jim, you sound so depressed! Forget I said anything. You're right, it must have been a typo.
Not buying it, huh? Okay. In that case... I'd replace them with another set of aluminum RR's. How many miles do you travel per year? A couple hundred bucks will likely get you another 50k miles. I think it's worth it. They operate with a constant ratio (unlike sled-fulcrumed rockers), at least until they wear. They reduce friction and side loading on the valve stem, and help equalize lift from cylinder to cylinder. They're also quieter. Speaking of which, that's another clue that your RR's are worn; when they become louder than stock rockers). Jim, do me a favor. Pull one of yours off and go to your local speed shop and compare it with a new one. There are exceptions to every rule, and you just might be it. I want you to compare them before you spend any money. I'm sure you'll end up replacing them, but check first anyway. Take care, -Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop http://homepage.mac.com/pkrwud/.Pict...sc./MyMac.jpeg My teams site: Jim Porter Racing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. |
PKRWUD I'm not trying to be a smarta$$ but is there anything you dont know. I have been really paying attention to your posts and replies lately. Everything you say is technically perfect. I mean Da&# man. You make me feel like a fool. Just wanted to say i'm glad you are here to lend a hand. I have started researching my parts purchases alot more lately.
------------------ '93 lx notch 4 banger (drive it to work currently), Using the 306, 8.8 posi, 4.10's, summit rear cover, elec. fan, cowl hood, wieand stealth intake, Heddman 1-3/4 long tubes, holley 650 d.p.carb., built c-?, e-303, full autometer guages, msd box, mallory unilite dist, and coil, roll cage, summit seat, subs, 15x10's in the back with slicks, skinnies up front, custom dash, all in use for 1988 Hatch Drag Car. |
Don't worry about me being depressed, I'm not. I planned to pull the engine and give it the once over soon anyway (probably in the spring). I'm surprised my engine has held together so well considering the pressure I was under to get it all put together. It was just kind of a surprise that the life expectancy was so short for something that looks a hell of a lot more durable than stock. I will inspect them before I replace them, of course. You're right, though, $250 after 55K miles is not really a whole lot of money.
------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible |
pony_power_90-
Dude, thanks for the kind words. I sure hope I don't really make you feel like a fool. You're not. And yes, there are tons of things I don't know. I do like learning, though, and I enjoy teaching as well. I have accomplished quite a bit for a 35 year old, and I am proud of it. But I'm not one of those smug pricks that will sit there and watch someone fail when they could be helping them. I love helping people. I worked 4 years in a hospital (2 in nursing and 2 in x-ray) from 1990 to 1994, and absolutely loved helping the patients and their families. I had a hard time with them dying, though. At least when an engine dies, I can rebuild it. I also really enjoy taking some of the mystery out of auto repair for others who are trying to understand. That's why I usually try to explain my answers to these posts when I can. I screwed up my ankle at the end of August, and am still recovering from it, and have been spending alot more time at home than I'm used to. As a result, I have been able to spend alot more time at MW. I still have my commitment to the Sprint car team I work for, but that doesn't take up that much time. We only have two more points races left this season. As far as me knowing a few things, you've got to understand, I have been turning wrenches since 1980, and supporting myself at it since 1994. I took about 4 years worth of college classes covering everything automotive in the 1980's, and have passed every ASE certification test I have taken, except one. I have always specialized in high performance engine work and repair, but have had to do just about everything to make ends meet. I got to be a mechanic for Bill Elliott in 1998, and have crewed for an IMCA and VRA Sprint car team for the past 2 years. We stand an excellent chance of winning our division this season. I also took a class in PC repair and Networking, and became A+ certified. No biggie, but it gave me good info to have. I built my first Harley from the ground up, but I also rebuilt an '86 Honda VF1000R that had been involved in a 45mph head-on crash, and came to me in boxes. One of my best friends used to own his own speed parts shop, but has been working for Hawaii Racing for the past 5 years or so. He's a big help when it comes to catalogs for researching part numbers, and for inside info from different manuacturers. Right now the SEMA (Specialty Equipment Market Association) Show is going on in Vegas. Everybody who is anybody in the automotive world is there showing off their newest creations. 6200 booths and displays from both automakers and aftermarket equipment manufacturers are filled with the best (check it out: http://www.appcluster03.com/App/main...=16&AppName=76 ). Anyway, I am a SEMA member, and was going to go, but with my ankle and a points race this Saturday, I decided not to. BUT, Joe, the owner of Hawaii Racing, is there, and he will bring back boxes of new "stuff'. This I look forward to like Christmas. This helps keep me on top of things. I also have a decent collection of manuals. They come in handy when I can't remember the specifics. Anyway, I can't sew. I can't type (I hunt and peck). I can't cook (I can burn toast and boil water). I have trouble comprehending the jet engine and the rotary engine. I don't know alot of stats on Mopar engines, but I do respect them. I don't understand most women. I've never used a scope (although I have a busted Sun TUT-915). I'm terrible at managing my money, and have no business skills. I don't understand how there can be fog in the desert. I have trouble accepting the fact that every single thing my computer does is based on nothing more than 1's and 0's. I don't understand why drugs are illegal, or why there are so many laws that there for our protection from ourselves. I don't understand how the earth can be spinning at over 1000 miles an hour, yet there's not even a breeze outside right now. I don't understand why anyone would buy a PC when they could own a Mac. I don't understand how so much information can be passed through the tiny copper wires in my DSL cable so quickly. I don't know how to fish. I don't understand how we can take pictures of parts of the universe that are millions of light years away. How did they determine the exact speed of light, anyway? I don't understand how Death Valley can be 280' below sea level, yet remains bone dry. Dude, there's a whole lot I don't know. Now I'm the one who feels like a fool. Take care, -Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop http://homepage.mac.com/pkrwud/.Pict...sc./MyMac.jpeg My teams site: Jim Porter Racing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. |
Hey Chris after reading your pearls of wisdom, I checked out Comp Cam's site. Do you think their cast steel rockers will have the same wear problems? I suspect they may since there is a version that is labeled "rebuildable". I suspect the problem is similar with Chevy motors too, although the 1.6 ratio and 1.7 ratio rockers probably add more stress to the pivot bearings than a 1.5 ratio does.
I'll throw this question up at Chevy talk, though this point has never come up there http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/confused.gif ------------------ Frank W 90 5.0 LX Notch MAC 2.5"cat bk FMS alu ds, MSD coil, MAC shifter 2.73 gears user site 88 Notch 2.3L FOR SALE! My two Notchbacks 74 Chevy Laguna Type S-3 305 now 454 soon My web site |
I know all the stuff that PKRWUD doesn't, so I guess that we have it covered. We just need a 'why do clocks run clockwise' forum...
ha, great list... ------------------ 1982 Mustang GT |
If it's the bearings themselves that wear on the aluminum RRs than it must be true about the steel RRs since the aluminum RRs have steel bearings.
------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible |
I think spring pressures have alot to do with the expected life of the rocker, probably more than anything else
I've got a set of erson forged aluminum roller rockers on a brand-x engine and the engine maybe has 10,000 miles on it, the rockers are shot to poop. Theres a butt load of play at the trunion, however the roller at the tip is in pretty good shape. They are 1.6 rockers on a solid roller with fairly high spring pressure. the cam is not to aggressive, but its 278 degrees of advertised intake duration with a gross lift of .599 with some pretty heavy springs. The engine has seen 9,000 on the tach and a bit past it on more than one occasion (one time I lost my temper and floored the SOB for a good 15 seconds trying to blow the engine up. no bad luck though, its still together) |
Hey Chris...I don't think a whole lot of people understand the Rotary motor, how do two piecs of spinning metal that look like pieces of cheese make power...I have no idea.
I love my MAC and we argue about this at work all the time but since I need to run CAD..it runs much better on the PC and not through Virtual PC like I had on the MAC. Let me know if you get any info from the SEMA on Top Gun N2O..rhawver@strouse.com Take Care, Rick ------------------ Check Out My Site 91GT,[bSpeedbrain ECU[/b],Holley SysteMAX II Kit-Heads 2.02" x 1.60" port matched to a 1262,Anderson N-61,30#,76mm C&L,75mm Accufab, Full MAC, No A/C or PS or emissions, 12" K&N Filter,RNH PERFORMANCE Ram Air,Ron Davis Radiator,Full Suspension, SPEC stage III clutch, Lakewood SFI bell, S&W 8pt "X" brace,JAZ seats,3:73's,Welds..etc,4:30's and 33 splines coming very soon! <B |
Spring pressure, hmm we may be on to something here.
I had this thought last night, what about the 96 LT-4 engine in Vettes or in some 97 F bodies. They have Alu rollers from the factory, would seem hard to imagine less than 100K mile durability for a factory install, but maybe they figure nobody will notice the trunion wear?? Maybe valvetrain geometry has a role, I know the LT-4 motor uses a very light valve/spring/retainer setup I am puzzled now ------------------ Frank W 90 5.0 LX Notch MAC 2.5"cat bk FMS alu ds, MSD coil, MAC shifter 2.73 gears user site URL=http://picturecenter.kodak.com/share?invite=y8QgEr3w4PETJSxz75GUz7Mho580knQt]My 90 Notch and 88 2.3 SOLD!!![/URL] 74 Chevy Laguna Type S-3 305 now 454 soon My web site |
I put in a call to Crane Cams to ask about the life expectancy of their aluminum rockers after Ford Racing told me to call them. They manufacture the Ford M-6564-A351 rockers. I told the guy at Crane that I called Ford about the life expectancy of their rockers and before I could say that the Ford guy didn't have an answer, the guy at Crane sarcastically said, "They said 20 thousand miles, right?" That Summit catalog generated a lot of calls for them and he seemed annoyed. He told me that they can and should last a long time in a daily driven car if they are properly installed and the oil is kept clean, but that if I was worried I should check them.
The Ford Racing guy wouldn't put a life expectancy number on them, but he did say that in the 8 years he's been working at Ford Racing that he's never seen one fail. I just thought I would let you guys know what the manufacturer said. I still plan to check them when I pull my engine next spring. ------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible |
Pressure plays a very big role. Think about it... the closer you get to the center, the less movement there is, so it's not necessarily wear from routine use. However, under excessive load, the trunion would suffer stress whether it moved or not, but especially under heavy load, which most systems with a high lift cam and stiffer springs will routinely see. I can say that the rollers that I have replaced for customers or on the Sprint car were under alot of load. Keep in mind, though, that the real reason aluminum rollers were put to use was for racing, not for longevity. A race engine, and it's parts, rarely have to go for more than 500 miles, and sometimes as few as 1/4 mile. Also, you get what you pay for. No offense intended, but Sig Erson, for example, is K-mart quality. The ford rollers are actually top of the line Crane rollers that Crane customized for Ford. GM uses top quality rollers as well, but still lists them as a part to replace at 100k miles as routine maintenance. In my opinion, based on what I've seen, I wouldn't really recommend aluminum rollers for a daily driver. The difference between aluminum rollers and steel rollers isn't noticable in a mild street engine. But, steel rollers wear faster than sled-fulcrumed rockers too.
Take care, -Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop http://homepage.mac.com/pkrwud/.Pict...sc./MyMac.jpeg My teams site: Jim Porter Racing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. |
Heh, dug this thread up for an update. My rockers are trashed. There's too much side to side play so the roller doesn't stay centered on the valve stem. The rollers feel a bit gritty, too. I have to order a new set tomorrow if one of the local FRPP dealers doesn't have them. I guess it's for the best since I have new springs and a cam shaft.
Just thought I'd give you guys an update. |
I decided to go ahead and order a set of Comp Cams Pro Magnum steel RRs. They're guaranteed for life and are rebuildable. I'll hopefully get them on Friday.
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the main reason why aluminum RR's wear faster is because( i think someone already mentioned this) of the hardened steel against a softer metal(aluminum). since it is not depending on an oil wedge, there is more friction. a good example would be an overhead cam motor. notice their isnt any cam bearings on an OHC aluminum head. aluminum is a decent material for a camshaft as long as it holds a true line bore and good oil wedge. many cars have this and have hundreds of thousands of miles on them with little or no wear. i will use my 87 Toyota truck as an example with 182k on it. now put needle bearings in place of the oil wedge and see what happens.
also let me give you another example. i was doing an intake job on a 97-98 Chevy Venture van with a 3.1(maybe a 3.4). from the factory it has a roller cam and roller rockers which were Steel, not aluminum. this van had 125k on it. no signs of play at all with the rockers. of course other factors do contribute to wear of aluminum RR's, like heat, maintenence, and to much spring pressure to name a few. but what do i know........:rolleyes: |
kind of makes you wonder why 93 cobras came with them stock? interesting
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Now of course they can use a shorter distance and use very precise instruments to get a more exact answer. :) Quote:
2. Ground water can not permate the surrounding rock (at all or fast enough to replace evaporating moisture) :) |
smartypants:p
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Take care, ~Chris |
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What a dude!
:) Take care, ~Chris |
for the love of God...
You guys make me want to go find an oil leak...or at least drink beer.
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Re: for the love of God...
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Damn Canucks!!
Easy on the Coors...(gulp) I mean it's really(slurp) great stuff...ahhhhh.
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