Anyone want to guess? (sorry, it's a long one)

89 Cobra LX · 07-23-2001, 11:18 AM

I posted about this a few months back, but here's a refresher. Earlier in the year I purchased a long-block from Excessive Motorsport. It's an Explorer block with GT-40p heads with a stage 2 port and a TFS stage 1 cam. This motor was advertised to make over 325HP with an aftermarket intake.

I added a set of 1.6 roller rockers, 24lb injectors and Cobra intake with 65mm throttle-body thinking I would make an honest 325 HP. Something didn't feel right about the motor after it was all installed, I didn't feel the upper-RPM pull I was expecting. So I went to the dyno for some testing and tuning. After making the appropriate adjustments for parasitic loss, I made 260 peak HP at 4500 RPMs. This was very disturbing, especially the RPM that I made peak power.

So I called Brett at Excessive Motorsport and he questioned everything that I could have done to the combination and insisted the parts they sent were fine. To make a long story short, they didn't replace the valve springs when assembling the motor. They threw in a high-performance cam and didn't bother to match the springs to it. I spoke with Trick Flow and they recommended springs with 120-125lbs pressure. The stock Explorer springs are coming in at about 90 lbs pressure. I ended up ordering a set of spring from Central Coast Mustang (they work with the GT-40p heads so I felt comfortable dealing with them) and made an appointment with HPMotorsport to get them installed.

Well today's the big day. HPMotorsport is installing the springs and I have a dyno appointment for later in the week. I thought it might be fun to have some fellow members guess at how much HP I will gain from swapping the springs. I'm hoping to gain power all the way across the band, but at least above 4500 RPMs. Peak power should be in the neighborhood of 5400 RPMs. I'll post a reply with the results after they are available.

FYI - I will be sending Excessive Motorsport some before and after dyno numbers and a bill for the labor associated with the spring installation. I'm sure those a$$holes won't reimburse me. I can't help but wonder how many people out there have purchased this motor from them. They have all been ripped-off.

In closing, Excessive Motorsport sucks and I will never deal with them again. I recommend the same for others.

------------------
Eric - 89 Mustang LX coupe
302 - Cobra Intake - GT40p heads - TFS stage 1 cam - FRPP 1.6 roller rockers - Naturally Aspirated
3:73 gears - KYB shocks and struts - Eibach springs - HPM Mega-bite Jr lower control arms - HPM upper control arms

dinomite · 07-23-2001, 11:58 AM

has anyone ever reported these guys to the better business bureao? and what is the location of the shop that everyone has trouble with? as there is a shop called "excessive motorsports east" in VA that the guys at the local mustang club reccomend.

89 Cobra LX · 07-23-2001, 12:34 PM

I've never heard of Excessive Motorsports East (I don't mean to flame them).

The company I'm b!tching about is located in Blue Springs, Missouri. They advertise in most of the magazines I subscribe to.

07-23-2001, 01:00 PM

Cobra, If I were you, I'd definately give the business bureau a call. Maybe even call a lawyer on the phone and see if you have a valid case against them. If your stang is as important to you as mine is to me, I'd be pretty freakin pissed off if somebody was trying to screw me over. Good luck with the dyno numbers. (I'd make a guess, but I have no clue what numbers you'll be looking at.)

------------------
Dave & Robin 88 GT, T5
306, polished crank, Speed Pro Powerforged pistons, ARP rod bolts, underdrive pulleys, cold air induction, 73mm MAF, Xtreme Energy Cam, 3.73's, 1 5/8 unequal length headers, Offroad H-pipe, 2 chamber flowmasters, turn-downs, King Cobra Clutch, Steeda adjustable clutch cable with firewall adjuster

jimberg · 07-23-2001, 01:11 PM

My guess would be, based on the information you provided, that your HP will not significantly change, in fact, it may lower because of the force necessary to move the valves.

I do not see a fuel pump upgrade in your list of add ons, nor do I see a properly calibrated MAF sensor for the 24# injectors. If they are something that you just neglected to mention, my apologies.

------------------
351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

89 Cobra LX · 07-23-2001, 01:43 PM

I've made so many mods to my stang that I've failed to mention most of them. I just try to list the bigger items I've done. I do have an appropriately calibrated MAF and a larger fuel pump to go with it. I've also added an adjustable FPR.

89 Cobra LX · 07-25-2001, 10:30 AM

I went to pick up my car yesterday and now it's more f@cked-up than ever. As I showed up to pick it up, they were towing it back to the shop. It actually died on the mechanic yesterday when they were test driving it. My damn ignition module went out on the test drive (what are the odds). Luckily they had one on hand and had running within 30 minutes.

Now, the problem is, I'm way down on power. I can't even break the tires loose in first gear (I've never had this problem before). The motor doesn't seem to rev very smooth, it seems like it's not running on all cylinders.

When they were changing the springs, I had them reinstall my old 19# injectors (and the appropriate sample tube for the MAF) on the suggestion of my tuner. I've checked all of the connections to the injectors and all the spark plug wires and they appear to be fine. Would the 19# injectors make my motor run like sh!t? I wouldn't think so....

I'm about ready to put my baby out of it's misery. I can't afford to keep dumping cash into it. I just hope something is wrong with the tune. If I can't get it running better in the next few days, I'm going to cancel my dyno session (no sense in wasting the money on it if it's running like sh!t).

F@CK, I'm really starting to stress.

------------------
Eric - 89 Mustang LX coupe
302 - Cobra Intake - GT40p heads - TFS stage 1 cam - FRPP 1.6 roller rockers - Naturally Aspirated
3:73 gears - KYB shocks and struts - Eibach springs - HPM Mega-bite Jr lower control arms - HPM upper control arms

Blue Beast · 07-25-2001, 11:37 AM

Did you re calibrate your Mass Air Meter on the downgrade to the 19lb injectors? Did you also check compression on all cylinders? I even wonder if the wires were put back on in the wrong order...

89 Cobra LX · 07-26-2001, 06:45 AM

It's amazing how a cracked spark plug will make a car run so bad.....

I can feel a big difference in upper-rpm performance. I can't wait to get to the dyno!

red82gt · 07-26-2001, 02:14 PM

Man, I've not heard anything good about excessive motorsports! They sure do have some good looking ads and some of their prices seem unreal, though

I'm glad meesage boards like this exist, I'll bet they've lost a lot of business this way, especially over on the corral.

Glad to hear you got the beast running though, I'll place my bet at 282hp @5600rpm

------------------
GT-40 heads (ported, polished, + milled), B303 cam, 1.7rr's, JE pistons, Offy intake, Carter AFB 625cfm carb, Flowtech 1 5/8" shortys, Flowtech X-pipe, MAC Flowpath exhaust, MAC pulleys, 373's, subframes, Eibachs+Tokicos, B&M ripper, FMS Clutch, Zoom Quadrant+cable, 17" CSA Ultra rims, 235/45ZR17 Yokohama AVS S4's, MSD 6A ignition+coil, FMS 9mm wires, Carbed, Naturally Aspirated, and Nasty!

89 Cobra LX · 07-30-2001, 03:07 PM

I think I had a case of wishful thinking when I felt the upper-rpm power because I went to the dyno and got the exact same results. Something is very wrong....

I put my 19# injectors back on and in order to get the best air to fuel ratio (and therefore power) I have to adjust the fuel pressure as low as the regulator will go. I'm running 28 psi and still coming in with an AFR of 12.4 or so. Stock mustangs have to run about 38-40 psi with the 19s. I had to run the fuel pressure as low as it would go with the 24# injectors also.

Through all of this I have determined that the valves aren't opening at the right time. I have a horrible feeling that the cam wasn't degreed correctly when it was installed. Short of pulling the accessories and timing cover, are there any tell-tale signs to determine a cam isn't degreed correctly? Any other ideas why I would have to run such a low psi?

I really need some advice from some of our resident experts on the board before I dump more money into my baby. Thanks -

------------------
Eric - 89 Mustang LX coupe
302 - Cobra Intake - GT40p heads - TFS stage 1 cam - FRPP 1.6 roller rockers - Naturally Aspirated
3:73 gears - KYB shocks and struts - Eibach springs - HPM Mega-bite Jr lower control arms - HPM upper control arms

[This message has been edited by 89 Cobra LX (edited 07-30-2001).]

jimberg · 07-30-2001, 03:33 PM

Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but... YOU CANNOT ADJUST FUEL PRESSURE TO CHANGE THE AIR/FUEL RATIO. YOU CANNOT CHANGE FUEL INJECTORS TO ADJUST AIR/FUEL RATIO.

If you have a properly calibrated MAF sensor to match your fuel injectors, the computer will run at an air/fuel ratio set at the factory. PERIOD. The only way to alter this would be to get an SVO Extender, a chip, or a programmable computer.

If, however, you are running a combo that requires more fuel than 24# (or 19#) injectors can deliver, you can raise your fuel pressure to allow for more fuel delivery. Your air/fuel ratio will remain the same, though (except for at the high end when the computer will be able to deliver more fuel to richen the air/fuel ratio).

By lowering your fuel pressure to 28, you basically made your 19# injectors into 16# injectors, screwed up the spray pattern, and limited your potential horsepower to something like 204-256hp.

------------------
351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

89 Cobra LX · 07-30-2001, 03:41 PM

Interesting Jimberg, I personally saw the AFR go up and down accordingly with the adjustments made the fuel pressure regulator.

jimberg · 07-30-2001, 04:49 PM

Initially the AFR will go up or down according to a fuel pressure change, but the computer will compensate and put them right back where they were originally. Don't ever expect that you can tune fuel pressure on a dyno.

You can, however, figure out what air/fuel ratio your car runs best at by resetting the computer between each fuel pressure change.

Here's a way you can do that.

Set your fuel pressure to 40 PSI. Reset your computer and then run it on the dyno. Hopefully it will be a bit rich initially. 12:1 or so.

Drop the pressure 2 PSI, reset the computer and do another run. Keep doing this until you get your best run and then at this point you will have a good idea as to what your optimal AFR is. Set your fuel pressure back up to 39 psi before you leave. Oh, and use your 24# injectors.

Once you have your optimal AFR, contact a chip manufacturer and tell them what you want your AFR to be and then they can burn a chip.

What it all boils down to is that the O2 sensors are used to determine how much fuel the computer will use in order to maintain its factory set AFR. If you lower the fuel pressure, yes, the AFR will go up, but then the computer will see that as running lean and then add more fuel until it is back to the AFR that the computer wants.

From the way you described your process and what your fuel pressure is set to, I'm guessing that you lowered the pressure in increments and each time the AFR went up a little, but then by the time you ran on the dyno, the computer compensated somewhat, but not completely. If your fuel pressure was set at 39 psi and you were driving around town for a few hours and then went to the dyno and dropped it to 28psi, I bet you would see a big jump in the AFR.

There is some potential wiggle room for tweaking the fuel pressure, but I won't get into that unless you're interested.

------------------
351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

89 Cobra LX · 07-30-2001, 05:57 PM

Thanks Jimberg, this actually helps tremendously. I was planning on a JMS Chip after I get this b!tch running worth a crap and wasn't sure what info they would like to burn the chip.

My big problem isn't solved... I'm still making peak power at 4500 RPM. The air/fuel ratio (mid 12s) is about the same from 4000-5500 RPMs. Could a misdegreed cam be screwing things up this bad? Any other possibilities?

stangbang · 07-31-2001, 08:31 PM

I just wanted to say that I also have been burned in the past by Excessive Motorsports. I couldn't get any satisfaction from them but maybe you'll do better. What is interesting is that they campain a car in the renegade class that has a KEITH CRAFT ENGINE not one of theirs. I guess they realize they don't know how to build a good engine a left it to a real pro. The article is in Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords October 2000 issue

07-23-2001, 11:18 AM	#1
89 Cobra LX Don Corlione Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Omaha NE USA Posts: 491	Anyone want to guess? (sorry, it's a long one) I posted about this a few months back, but here's a refresher. Earlier in the year I purchased a long-block from Excessive Motorsport. It's an Explorer block with GT-40p heads with a stage 2 port and a TFS stage 1 cam. This motor was advertised to make over 325HP with an aftermarket intake. I added a set of 1.6 roller rockers, 24lb injectors and Cobra intake with 65mm throttle-body thinking I would make an honest 325 HP. Something didn't feel right about the motor after it was all installed, I didn't feel the upper-RPM pull I was expecting. So I went to the dyno for some testing and tuning. After making the appropriate adjustments for parasitic loss, I made 260 peak HP at 4500 RPMs. This was very disturbing, especially the RPM that I made peak power. So I called Brett at Excessive Motorsport and he questioned everything that I could have done to the combination and insisted the parts they sent were fine. To make a long story short, they didn't replace the valve springs when assembling the motor. They threw in a high-performance cam and didn't bother to match the springs to it. I spoke with Trick Flow and they recommended springs with 120-125lbs pressure. The stock Explorer springs are coming in at about 90 lbs pressure. I ended up ordering a set of spring from Central Coast Mustang (they work with the GT-40p heads so I felt comfortable dealing with them) and made an appointment with HPMotorsport to get them installed. Well today's the big day. HPMotorsport is installing the springs and I have a dyno appointment for later in the week. I thought it might be fun to have some fellow members guess at how much HP I will gain from swapping the springs. I'm hoping to gain power all the way across the band, but at least above 4500 RPMs. Peak power should be in the neighborhood of 5400 RPMs. I'll post a reply with the results after they are available. FYI - I will be sending Excessive Motorsport some before and after dyno numbers and a bill for the labor associated with the spring installation. I'm sure those a$$holes won't reimburse me. I can't help but wonder how many people out there have purchased this motor from them. They have all been ripped-off. In closing, Excessive Motorsport sucks and I will never deal with them again. I recommend the same for others. ------------------ Eric - 89 Mustang LX coupe 302 - Cobra Intake - GT40p heads - TFS stage 1 cam - FRPP 1.6 roller rockers - Naturally Aspirated 3:73 gears - KYB shocks and struts - Eibach springs - HPM Mega-bite Jr lower control arms - HPM upper control arms

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07-23-2001, 11:58 AM	#2
dinomite The Dude Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 1,262	has anyone ever reported these guys to the better business bureao? and what is the location of the shop that everyone has trouble with? as there is a shop called "excessive motorsports east" in VA that the guys at the local mustang club reccomend.

07-23-2001, 12:34 PM	#3
89 Cobra LX Don Corlione Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Omaha NE USA Posts: 491	I've never heard of Excessive Motorsports East (I don't mean to flame them). The company I'm b!tching about is located in Blue Springs, Missouri. They advertise in most of the magazines I subscribe to.

07-23-2001, 01:00 PM	#4
D&R Stang Guest Posts: n/a	Cobra, If I were you, I'd definately give the business bureau a call. Maybe even call a lawyer on the phone and see if you have a valid case against them. If your stang is as important to you as mine is to me, I'd be pretty freakin pissed off if somebody was trying to screw me over. Good luck with the dyno numbers. (I'd make a guess, but I have no clue what numbers you'll be looking at.) ------------------ Dave & Robin 88 GT, T5 306, polished crank, Speed Pro Powerforged pistons, ARP rod bolts, underdrive pulleys, cold air induction, 73mm MAF, Xtreme Energy Cam, 3.73's, 1 5/8 unequal length headers, Offroad H-pipe, 2 chamber flowmasters, turn-downs, King Cobra Clutch, Steeda adjustable clutch cable with firewall adjuster

07-23-2001, 01:11 PM	#5
jimberg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 2,089	My guess would be, based on the information you provided, that your HP will not significantly change, in fact, it may lower because of the force necessary to move the valves. I do not see a fuel pump upgrade in your list of add ons, nor do I see a properly calibrated MAF sensor for the 24# injectors. If they are something that you just neglected to mention, my apologies. ------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

07-23-2001, 01:43 PM	#6
89 Cobra LX Don Corlione Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Omaha NE USA Posts: 491	I've made so many mods to my stang that I've failed to mention most of them. I just try to list the bigger items I've done. I do have an appropriately calibrated MAF and a larger fuel pump to go with it. I've also added an adjustable FPR.

07-25-2001, 10:30 AM	#7
89 Cobra LX Don Corlione Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Omaha NE USA Posts: 491	I went to pick up my car yesterday and now it's more f@cked-up than ever. As I showed up to pick it up, they were towing it back to the shop. It actually died on the mechanic yesterday when they were test driving it. My damn ignition module went out on the test drive (what are the odds). Luckily they had one on hand and had running within 30 minutes. Now, the problem is, I'm way down on power. I can't even break the tires loose in first gear (I've never had this problem before). The motor doesn't seem to rev very smooth, it seems like it's not running on all cylinders. When they were changing the springs, I had them reinstall my old 19# injectors (and the appropriate sample tube for the MAF) on the suggestion of my tuner. I've checked all of the connections to the injectors and all the spark plug wires and they appear to be fine. Would the 19# injectors make my motor run like sh!t? I wouldn't think so.... I'm about ready to put my baby out of it's misery. I can't afford to keep dumping cash into it. I just hope something is wrong with the tune. If I can't get it running better in the next few days, I'm going to cancel my dyno session (no sense in wasting the money on it if it's running like sh!t). F@CK, I'm really starting to stress. ------------------ Eric - 89 Mustang LX coupe 302 - Cobra Intake - GT40p heads - TFS stage 1 cam - FRPP 1.6 roller rockers - Naturally Aspirated 3:73 gears - KYB shocks and struts - Eibach springs - HPM Mega-bite Jr lower control arms - HPM upper control arms

07-25-2001, 11:37 AM	#8
Blue Beast Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: New Jersey Posts: 47	Did you re calibrate your Mass Air Meter on the downgrade to the 19lb injectors? Did you also check compression on all cylinders? I even wonder if the wires were put back on in the wrong order...

07-26-2001, 06:45 AM	#9
89 Cobra LX Don Corlione Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Omaha NE USA Posts: 491	It's amazing how a cracked spark plug will make a car run so bad..... I can feel a big difference in upper-rpm performance. I can't wait to get to the dyno!

07-26-2001, 02:14 PM	#10
red82gt Sober voice of Reason Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Kelowna, B.C., Canada Posts: 1,514	Man, I've not heard anything good about excessive motorsports! They sure do have some good looking ads and some of their prices seem unreal, though I'm glad meesage boards like this exist, I'll bet they've lost a lot of business this way, especially over on the corral. Glad to hear you got the beast running though, I'll place my bet at 282hp @5600rpm ------------------ GT-40 heads (ported, polished, + milled), B303 cam, 1.7rr's, JE pistons, Offy intake, Carter AFB 625cfm carb, Flowtech 1 5/8" shortys, Flowtech X-pipe, MAC Flowpath exhaust, MAC pulleys, 373's, subframes, Eibachs+Tokicos, B&M ripper, FMS Clutch, Zoom Quadrant+cable, 17" CSA Ultra rims, 235/45ZR17 Yokohama AVS S4's, MSD 6A ignition+coil, FMS 9mm wires, Carbed, Naturally Aspirated, and Nasty!

07-30-2001, 03:07 PM	#11
89 Cobra LX Don Corlione Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Omaha NE USA Posts: 491	I think I had a case of wishful thinking when I felt the upper-rpm power because I went to the dyno and got the exact same results. Something is very wrong.... I put my 19# injectors back on and in order to get the best air to fuel ratio (and therefore power) I have to adjust the fuel pressure as low as the regulator will go. I'm running 28 psi and still coming in with an AFR of 12.4 or so. Stock mustangs have to run about 38-40 psi with the 19s. I had to run the fuel pressure as low as it would go with the 24# injectors also. Through all of this I have determined that the valves aren't opening at the right time. I have a horrible feeling that the cam wasn't degreed correctly when it was installed. Short of pulling the accessories and timing cover, are there any tell-tale signs to determine a cam isn't degreed correctly? Any other ideas why I would have to run such a low psi? I really need some advice from some of our resident experts on the board before I dump more money into my baby. Thanks - ------------------ Eric - 89 Mustang LX coupe 302 - Cobra Intake - GT40p heads - TFS stage 1 cam - FRPP 1.6 roller rockers - Naturally Aspirated 3:73 gears - KYB shocks and struts - Eibach springs - HPM Mega-bite Jr lower control arms - HPM upper control arms [This message has been edited by 89 Cobra LX (edited 07-30-2001).]

07-30-2001, 03:33 PM	#12
jimberg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 2,089	Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but... YOU CANNOT ADJUST FUEL PRESSURE TO CHANGE THE AIR/FUEL RATIO. YOU CANNOT CHANGE FUEL INJECTORS TO ADJUST AIR/FUEL RATIO. If you have a properly calibrated MAF sensor to match your fuel injectors, the computer will run at an air/fuel ratio set at the factory. PERIOD. The only way to alter this would be to get an SVO Extender, a chip, or a programmable computer. If, however, you are running a combo that requires more fuel than 24# (or 19#) injectors can deliver, you can raise your fuel pressure to allow for more fuel delivery. Your air/fuel ratio will remain the same, though (except for at the high end when the computer will be able to deliver more fuel to richen the air/fuel ratio). By lowering your fuel pressure to 28, you basically made your 19# injectors into 16# injectors, screwed up the spray pattern, and limited your potential horsepower to something like 204-256hp. ------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

07-30-2001, 03:41 PM	#13
89 Cobra LX Don Corlione Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Omaha NE USA Posts: 491	Interesting Jimberg, I personally saw the AFR go up and down accordingly with the adjustments made the fuel pressure regulator.

07-30-2001, 04:49 PM	#14
jimberg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 2,089	Initially the AFR will go up or down according to a fuel pressure change, but the computer will compensate and put them right back where they were originally. Don't ever expect that you can tune fuel pressure on a dyno. You can, however, figure out what air/fuel ratio your car runs best at by resetting the computer between each fuel pressure change. Here's a way you can do that. Set your fuel pressure to 40 PSI. Reset your computer and then run it on the dyno. Hopefully it will be a bit rich initially. 12:1 or so. Drop the pressure 2 PSI, reset the computer and do another run. Keep doing this until you get your best run and then at this point you will have a good idea as to what your optimal AFR is. Set your fuel pressure back up to 39 psi before you leave. Oh, and use your 24# injectors. Once you have your optimal AFR, contact a chip manufacturer and tell them what you want your AFR to be and then they can burn a chip. What it all boils down to is that the O2 sensors are used to determine how much fuel the computer will use in order to maintain its factory set AFR. If you lower the fuel pressure, yes, the AFR will go up, but then the computer will see that as running lean and then add more fuel until it is back to the AFR that the computer wants. From the way you described your process and what your fuel pressure is set to, I'm guessing that you lowered the pressure in increments and each time the AFR went up a little, but then by the time you ran on the dyno, the computer compensated somewhat, but not completely. If your fuel pressure was set at 39 psi and you were driving around town for a few hours and then went to the dyno and dropped it to 28psi, I bet you would see a big jump in the AFR. There is some potential wiggle room for tweaking the fuel pressure, but I won't get into that unless you're interested. ------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

07-30-2001, 05:57 PM	#15
89 Cobra LX Don Corlione Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Omaha NE USA Posts: 491	Thanks Jimberg, this actually helps tremendously. I was planning on a JMS Chip after I get this b!tch running worth a crap and wasn't sure what info they would like to burn the chip. My big problem isn't solved... I'm still making peak power at 4500 RPM. The air/fuel ratio (mid 12s) is about the same from 4000-5500 RPMs. Could a misdegreed cam be screwing things up this bad? Any other possibilities?

07-31-2001, 08:31 PM	#16
stangbang Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: brunswick,ohio Posts: 135	I just wanted to say that I also have been burned in the past by Excessive Motorsports. I couldn't get any satisfaction from them but maybe you'll do better. What is interesting is that they campain a car in the renegade class that has a KEITH CRAFT ENGINE not one of theirs. I guess they realize they don't know how to build a good engine a left it to a real pro. The article is in Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords October 2000 issue