Interesting timing issues on my carb conversion

crazypete · 09-30-2002, 07:40 PM

The car would not start, so I pulled everything emission control related off. Suddenly, she started sputtering. So I guess I killed a vacuum leak on the egr riser plate. I then pulled and plugged the vacuum hose leading to the distributor (a vacuum advance duraspark II dist off a 79' ford) and had my dad crank it while I set the timing to 10 btdc (the stock setting).

Now here's the funny part. I can start it if crank and pump the gas with the vacuum advance disconnected and it will run as long as I keep pumping on the gas. If I stop, it will sputter, sputter, die. I see a little "water" behind the tailpipes. Now, if I connect the vacuum advance, it goes crazy. I can barely get it to sputter and it starts to detonate. Black smoke out back and some coming up through the carb. Should I be using the efi base timing? She kinda sounds like the timing is way off.

HotRoddin · 09-30-2002, 09:52 PM

It sounds like you got the distributor off a notch ? Did you just put it in ?

87gt17815 · 09-30-2002, 10:15 PM

i agree i think that you have the distributor off a tooth. Also check the idle on the carb. be sure that the puddle behind your tailpipes isn't fuel. Once you get the distributor in right it should have no problem running with the vacuum advance hooked up.

PKRWUD · 10-01-2002, 03:03 AM

Where is the vacuum advance hose connected to?

crazypete · 10-01-2002, 07:29 AM

The distributor is newly installed. I marked the position of the rotor with a yardstick and put a piece of tape on the fender and pulled/dropped until the rotor lined up again. I also marked the position of cap position #1 with the same meterstick. But here is a question: If the timing light tells me 10 degrees, then even if it is off by a tooth, I managed to turn the distributor enough to correct, right?

The puddle smells more like water (or water run through an exhaust system, LOL) than fuel.

The distributor is hooked to a "spark" port on the carb. I see zero vacuum while cranking, a rough 5 hg at "idle", or the best idle I can summon at this point and 10-12 hg if I blip the throttle. I have a vacuum guage hooked to the "full manifold vacuum" port on the carb

Looks like a lot of the older cars use much less timing than 10 degrees, more like 6 degrees. This is why I ask

RoadWarrior · 10-01-2002, 09:17 AM

For my car i time it by total timing. And for my car i have that set to about 34. But i agree that it sounds like you are out a tooth. Ive pulled my distributor a couple of times and put it in one out. And it sounds like your out one.

crazypete · 10-01-2002, 10:56 AM

Well, since I cant actually "run" the engine at the moment to set the total timing (unless I touch a screwdriver across the starter relay while jabbing at the throttle linkage...which somehow doesnt appeal to me at the moment), I'm stuck with cranking it to see the base timing

RoadWarrior · 10-01-2002, 11:58 AM

Basically try pulling out your distibutor, line it up with top dead center try dropping in your distrobutor again. Even out a a tooth you should be able to get the car to run without pumping the gas. and make sure you have all the plug wires right. If you did a cam change make sure you have the right firing order for the cam. Otherwise id say you have a bigger problem then ignition.

crazypete · 10-01-2002, 03:09 PM

Ok, the plug wires are routed correctly and their brand new. I did the msd spark test and she's sparking, besides, the timing light picked up cylinder #1. I wildly rotated the dist around at least 30 degrees and it sputters a bit cleaner when rotated clockwise but still feels like its running on 6 cylinders.

Check this out: The drivers side valve cover, head and header are super hot after 20-30 seconds and the passenger side vlave cover and header are cool enough to touch after 2-3 minutes of experimenting. The wires dont touch anything on the way over and the wires are snug on the cap. This is not normal, is it?

red82gt · 10-02-2002, 04:46 PM

A similar thing happened to my car when I put the current motor in it. It would start but sputtered badly and coughed and backfired. Turned the distributor 180 degrees and it fired and ran fine. I'm wondering how you're setting base timing without the car idling though...

crazypete · 10-02-2002, 05:00 PM

Well, I pull the vacuum advance, aim the light and yell over to my father to crank it and quickly make my adjustment =)

Thank God for good batteries

180 degrees, huh? ok, it's worth a try...

RoadWarrior · 10-02-2002, 06:59 PM

Come to think of it Ive done that too with my 82. So that is a definite possibility.

jim_howard_pdx · 10-02-2002, 10:01 PM

Hey,

Here is my two cents worth....
If you did a cam change what did you have, and what did you end up with. A standard 289 302 cam has a funky firing order. When ford decided to evaluate the 351W for LeMans racing, they correctly decided not to fire 7 and 8 back to back. So the 351W has a different firing order to correct the original stupidity. Ford new they had a great engine with the 302HO so they followed the 351W firing order.

See what I mean. You may be misfiring two cylinders which would exactly explain your ability to get it running but one side is hot and one side is cold. DO YOU SEE THE LIGHT?????

Now as for the distributor timing. I pull the first plug, that is plug number one for the bud crowd, and I hold my finger over the plug hole with the coil lead disconnected from the coil. When I feel compression, that is pressure for the bud crowd, then I know the intake and exhaust are closed. Now I know I am headed to top dead center. I turn the engine manually to be 6 degrees advance, and drop the distributor to where ever I want the vacume advance canister to aim. Then I make sure the number one cap lead is exactly over the rotor. No I know I am close enough to start the engine.

If the car is still struggling, then I double check my firing order. This usually corrects any problems. Email me at jim_howard_pdx@yahoo.com if you need additional information or help. I think you changed cam firing order without knowing it. It should be fairly easy to check this out.

Good Luck.

crazypete · 10-03-2002, 09:10 AM

OHMYGOD OHMYGOD OHMYGOD!!! I DID IT!

I converted a FI car to carb and it's running!!!!!!!

Ok, here was the problem: Last night I went to go top off the radiator and when I poured the coolant in, I heard this dribbling sound coming for across the engine bay. Coolant was POURING out the back of the motor. I had somehow managed to (I have no idea how I accomplished this) break off a huge chunk of the gasket when I was mounting the intake. There was a phenomenal vacuum leak in the motor.

I replaced, crank and VROOOOOOOM! She started right up. Ok, she's idling at what sounds like 2000 rpms (tach isnt hooked up, could find the wire) and blowing white smoke out the back. Time to start tuning. Thanks for your patience and help everyone!

Dark Knight · 10-06-2002, 09:26 PM

just a little FYI....if you're using a 79 dist in a roller cammed car...the dizzy gear will last a few hours.... the steel cam will chew the cast iron gear up...you need the gear off an 85 dist...or a replacement steel one.... :-)

unless you changed it already... then never mind :-D

crazypete · 10-07-2002, 07:27 AM

I was POUNDING away at that gear and it wouldnt come off the shaft. I had the pin out and I looked through the hole and it hadnt even shifted a bit. I even tried prying it apart with "big bertha" (the queen of all screwdrivers, this things almost a crowbar =) ) , but to no avail.

PKRWUD · 10-07-2002, 07:50 AM

Your supposed to use a press, not a hammer. If you have a bottle jack, you could improvise, or if you're careful, use a torch.

Take care,
~Chris

10-01-2002, 03:03 AM	#4
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Where is the vacuum advance hose connected to? __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

10-01-2002, 09:17 AM	#6
RoadWarrior Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Edmonton,Alberta,Canada Posts: 317	For my car i time it by total timing. And for my car i have that set to about 34. But i agree that it sounds like you are out a tooth. Ive pulled my distributor a couple of times and put it in one out. And it sounds like your out one. __________________ Fast Company

10-01-2002, 11:58 AM	#8
RoadWarrior Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Edmonton,Alberta,Canada Posts: 317	Basically try pulling out your distibutor, line it up with top dead center try dropping in your distrobutor again. Even out a a tooth you should be able to get the car to run without pumping the gas. and make sure you have all the plug wires right. If you did a cam change make sure you have the right firing order for the cam. Otherwise id say you have a bigger problem then ignition. __________________ Fast Company

10-02-2002, 04:46 PM	#10
red82gt Sober voice of Reason Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Kelowna, B.C., Canada Posts: 1,514	A similar thing happened to my car when I put the current motor in it. It would start but sputtered badly and coughed and backfired. Turned the distributor 180 degrees and it fired and ran fine. I'm wondering how you're setting base timing without the car idling though... __________________ 393W: AFR 205's, hydraulic roller, TKO600.

10-02-2002, 06:59 PM	#12
RoadWarrior Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Edmonton,Alberta,Canada Posts: 317	Come to think of it Ive done that too with my 82. So that is a definite possibility. __________________ Fast Company

09-30-2002, 07:40 PM	#1
crazypete Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 592	Interesting timing issues on my carb conversion The car would not start, so I pulled everything emission control related off. Suddenly, she started sputtering. So I guess I killed a vacuum leak on the egr riser plate. I then pulled and plugged the vacuum hose leading to the distributor (a vacuum advance duraspark II dist off a 79' ford) and had my dad crank it while I set the timing to 10 btdc (the stock setting). Now here's the funny part. I can start it if crank and pump the gas with the vacuum advance disconnected and it will run as long as I keep pumping on the gas. If I stop, it will sputter, sputter, die. I see a little "water" behind the tailpipes. Now, if I connect the vacuum advance, it goes crazy. I can barely get it to sputter and it starts to detonate. Black smoke out back and some coming up through the carb. Should I be using the efi base timing? She kinda sounds like the timing is way off.

09-30-2002, 09:52 PM	#2
HotRoddin cranky old man Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Longview Texas Posts: 683	It sounds like you got the distributor off a notch ? Did you just put it in ?

09-30-2002, 10:15 PM	#3
87gt17815 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bloomsburg,PA Posts: 34	i agree i think that you have the distributor off a tooth. Also check the idle on the carb. be sure that the puddle behind your tailpipes isn't fuel. Once you get the distributor in right it should have no problem running with the vacuum advance hooked up.

10-01-2002, 07:29 AM	#5
crazypete Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 592	The distributor is newly installed. I marked the position of the rotor with a yardstick and put a piece of tape on the fender and pulled/dropped until the rotor lined up again. I also marked the position of cap position #1 with the same meterstick. But here is a question: If the timing light tells me 10 degrees, then even if it is off by a tooth, I managed to turn the distributor enough to correct, right? The puddle smells more like water (or water run through an exhaust system, LOL) than fuel. The distributor is hooked to a "spark" port on the carb. I see zero vacuum while cranking, a rough 5 hg at "idle", or the best idle I can summon at this point and 10-12 hg if I blip the throttle. I have a vacuum guage hooked to the "full manifold vacuum" port on the carb Looks like a lot of the older cars use much less timing than 10 degrees, more like 6 degrees. This is why I ask

10-01-2002, 10:56 AM	#7
crazypete Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 592	Well, since I cant actually "run" the engine at the moment to set the total timing (unless I touch a screwdriver across the starter relay while jabbing at the throttle linkage...which somehow doesnt appeal to me at the moment), I'm stuck with cranking it to see the base timing

10-01-2002, 03:09 PM	#9
crazypete Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 592	Ok, the plug wires are routed correctly and their brand new. I did the msd spark test and she's sparking, besides, the timing light picked up cylinder #1. I wildly rotated the dist around at least 30 degrees and it sputters a bit cleaner when rotated clockwise but still feels like its running on 6 cylinders. Check this out: The drivers side valve cover, head and header are super hot after 20-30 seconds and the passenger side vlave cover and header are cool enough to touch after 2-3 minutes of experimenting. The wires dont touch anything on the way over and the wires are snug on the cap. This is not normal, is it?

10-02-2002, 05:00 PM	#11
crazypete Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 592	Well, I pull the vacuum advance, aim the light and yell over to my father to crank it and quickly make my adjustment =) Thank God for good batteries 180 degrees, huh? ok, it's worth a try...

10-02-2002, 10:01 PM	#13
jim_howard_pdx Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 247	Not sure where you are at NOW Hey, Here is my two cents worth.... If you did a cam change what did you have, and what did you end up with. A standard 289 302 cam has a funky firing order. When ford decided to evaluate the 351W for LeMans racing, they correctly decided not to fire 7 and 8 back to back. So the 351W has a different firing order to correct the original stupidity. Ford new they had a great engine with the 302HO so they followed the 351W firing order. See what I mean. You may be misfiring two cylinders which would exactly explain your ability to get it running but one side is hot and one side is cold. DO YOU SEE THE LIGHT????? Now as for the distributor timing. I pull the first plug, that is plug number one for the bud crowd, and I hold my finger over the plug hole with the coil lead disconnected from the coil. When I feel compression, that is pressure for the bud crowd, then I know the intake and exhaust are closed. Now I know I am headed to top dead center. I turn the engine manually to be 6 degrees advance, and drop the distributor to where ever I want the vacume advance canister to aim. Then I make sure the number one cap lead is exactly over the rotor. No I know I am close enough to start the engine. If the car is still struggling, then I double check my firing order. This usually corrects any problems. Email me at jim_howard_pdx@yahoo.com if you need additional information or help. I think you changed cam firing order without knowing it. It should be fairly easy to check this out. Good Luck. __________________ 1966 Customized for daily street and highway domination. 358 Windsor running 425 HP C-4 Auto and 3.25 Posi

10-03-2002, 09:10 AM	#14
crazypete Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 592	OHMYGOD OHMYGOD OHMYGOD!!! I DID IT! I converted a FI car to carb and it's running!!!!!!! Ok, here was the problem: Last night I went to go top off the radiator and when I poured the coolant in, I heard this dribbling sound coming for across the engine bay. Coolant was POURING out the back of the motor. I had somehow managed to (I have no idea how I accomplished this) break off a huge chunk of the gasket when I was mounting the intake. There was a phenomenal vacuum leak in the motor. I replaced, crank and VROOOOOOOM! She started right up. Ok, she's idling at what sounds like 2000 rpms (tach isnt hooked up, could find the wire) and blowing white smoke out the back. Time to start tuning. Thanks for your patience and help everyone!

10-06-2002, 09:26 PM	#15
Dark Knight Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Az Posts: 854	just a little FYI....if you're using a 79 dist in a roller cammed car...the dizzy gear will last a few hours.... the steel cam will chew the cast iron gear up...you need the gear off an 85 dist...or a replacement steel one.... :-) unless you changed it already... then never mind :-D __________________ 84 convt,roller 302,AFR's, performer 3.55's, underdrives BBK shorties stock cam, 1.7's 13.58@102.84 and a '68 stang .. project 8 sec street car... 557 big block + N20 :-) http://members.cox.net/darkknight302/68nwrear.jpg

10-07-2002, 07:27 AM	#16
crazypete Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 592	I was POUNDING away at that gear and it wouldnt come off the shaft. I had the pin out and I looked through the hole and it hadnt even shifted a bit. I even tried prying it apart with "big bertha" (the queen of all screwdrivers, this things almost a crowbar =) ) , but to no avail.

10-07-2002, 07:50 AM	#17
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Your supposed to use a press, not a hammer. If you have a bottle jack, you could improvise, or if you're careful, use a torch. Take care, ~Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

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