cut it off and absolutely refuses to restart,until.... (long)

08-14-2001, 11:16 AM

I've had my 88GT for about 5 months now, and twice, it's done this to me. The first time was about four months ago right in the middle of a "cruise night", OF ALL PLACES!! I was backing out verrrry slloooowwly because it was so crowded and my car died. I thought maybe I just accidentally killed it, no biggy, but then I went to immediately restart it but it wouldn't fire up! I smelled gas after trying to start it a few times. I checked for spark, fine. I checked the lines for fuel, fine. I had no idea what to do and since I didn't know hardly anything about EFI, I called some fellow stangers over and they couldn't figure it out either. So, I went back to the very basics. Fuel, Fire, Air. I had fuel, I had spark. I pulled the air intake off of the MAF, and it started just fine with the exception of all of the white smoke from the tailpipes from the fuel buildup. I just assumed that it was a coincidence and it didn't do it again, so I never worried about why that worked until yesterday. I pulled into a gas station, and got in line behind another car and cut mine off. I was almost out of gas, but not completely empty. When he moved, I tried to start my car and again, it wouldn't fire up. I then realized, I didn't hear the fuel pump priming. After popping the hood and making sure I didn't melt my solenoid or anything like that, I remembered what had happened a few months ago, and pulled the air intake off of the MAF. Again, if fired up. WHY?!?!?!? Is my fuel pump dying? This makes no sense to me. What's the deal with this air intake thing? The air intake isn't the same as it was the last time either. I had Moroso Cold Air the first time it happened and now I have Homemade Ram Air. If anyone could let me know what might be the problem, it would be great. SORRY SO LONG!!

------------------
Dave & Robin 88 GT, T5
306, polished crank, Speed Pro Powerforged pistons, ARP rod bolts, underdrive pulleys, cold air induction, 73mm MAF, Xtreme Energy Cam, 3.73's, 1 5/8 unequal length headers, Offroad H-pipe, 2 chamber flowmasters, turn-downs, King Cobra Clutch, Steeda adjustable clutch cable with firewall adjuster

jimberg · 08-14-2001, 11:27 AM

The very first thing you should do, or anyone should do when they have severe problems such as this, is retrieve the codes from the computer. There's a good explanation on how to do this on Corral.net under the Electronics section of the technical articles. All you really need is a piece of wire with spade connectors on each end. I keep one in my glove box now.

Can you describe a little more about what you mean by removing the air intake off of the MAF? Did you just pull the hose off of the throttle body side of the MAF sensor? Did you actually disconnect the connector going to the MAF?

------------------
351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

08-14-2001, 11:36 AM

What I meant by that is where the MAF connects to what would be the air box (if I had one), I just took the rubber tube off of the MAF, so basically the air was coming straight into the meter. No air filter, no air tubes, just straight into the MAF.
The thing that worried me was that, I didn't hear the fuel pump priming when it wouldn't start. It seems fine again now, but who knows when the next time this will happen and where I'll be then.

[This message has been edited by D&R Stang (edited 08-14-2001).]

jimberg · 08-14-2001, 11:48 AM

Okay. I guess you should probably retrieve the codes. It's possible that you may have a bad wire going into the MAF sensor and when you moved it to remove it from the air box it was able to make a propper connection again. You may want to try wiggling the MAF sensor wires while idling to see if it quits on you. You may also have a fault MAF sensor itself that comes alive when you wiggle it.

------------------
351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

PrplMonster · 08-14-2001, 11:51 AM

curiosity tells me to check how dirty your air filter is. Also, how many miles are on the car? could need a fuel filter. What about a fouled plug. You said you had white smoke, which is definately NOT unburned fuel. just my .02

.dave

08-14-2001, 02:21 PM

The air and fuel filters are about two weeks old, and playing with the wires on the air meter doesn't seem to affect anything. Once I started it back up, I hooked the air induction back up and it seems fine. It only smoked for about two seconds after I finally got it to start. I'll get some codes and get back with you guys. I have one other question though. From your experiences, when a factory fuel pump starts to go bad, does it just die, or does it sometimes show warning signs before it completely goes?
Thanks for your help.
Dave

[This message has been edited by D&R Stang (edited 08-14-2001).]

Harry · 08-14-2001, 02:39 PM

I think the fuel pumps will give you warning before they go out, at least mine did. They will start to get really noisy. When they get this way, it's time to change them. The fact that the car started back up after disconnecting the air intake would indicate it's not really a fuel pump, I would think.

------------------
See my 1985 Mustang GT

CT5.0 · 08-14-2001, 02:53 PM

It could be the dreaded TFI module. They're notorious for occasional stalling problems due to heat build up. Was your engine running and warm when these instances occurred?

------------------
1988 LX Hatchback, GT40's, Edelbrock Performer, 2031, 1.7's, MSD 6A, Stock T-5, HD FMS Clutch, 3.55's, OR H-pipe, 190 pump, E/L shorties, much more!

08-14-2001, 04:47 PM

The motor was warm, but it never stalled. I shut it off manually both of these times, and both times I tried to start it back up within one minute. The only reason I was thinking of the pump was like I stated previously, when it wouldn't start, I would turn the key and did not hear the pump priming itself. It's wierd because it's only happenned twice so far and the two times have been months apart.

PKRWUD · 08-14-2001, 05:59 PM

Sounds like the fuel pump relay is going out. I think the MAF connection is just a time killing coincidence that gave the relay time to cool. The relay is under your seat, and is subject to heat, just like the rest of your floorboard. Heat is not a relay's best buddy. If it's the original relay, replace it. 13 years is very old for a relay that is used every minute of vehicle operation. Codes could confirm this. Pull and post them.

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

BlackFly · 08-14-2001, 10:06 PM

for what its worth , i've seen two fuel pumps go the same way. that was while driving it bucked and died. started back up and lasted for months before happening again. it then took longer for it to start each time it would do that. sometimes a few minutes. right now my pump is in the same state. i went to start my horse in the morning. no pump sound, no fuel, no nice ride to work. got home and the sucker started right up. the new pump is on its way as we type.

Unit 5302 · 08-14-2001, 11:02 PM

Usually, when I've seen fuel pumps go out, they go out by killing on longer trips first. Usually, mine have sounded strange when they go out. They still "prime" but it's loud and off key, and it's not really pumping anything.

I don't know if the MAF cars route the fuel pump relay systems through the MAF sensor or not. If they do, the MAF may be suspect.

Good luck!

08-16-2001, 09:59 AM

It did it to me again yesterday evening. What could putting gas in an almost empty tank have to do with not starting anymore. That's the only time it does this!! Yesterday, I pulled up to the pump, turned the car off, filled it up, got back in it and it wouldn't fire up. I left it for an hour and went to the parts store and got a code reader, then went out to eat and came back to the car. Then it started fine. I drove it home and hooked up the scanner, but it won't send any codes, NONE!!! It just beeps once when I start the test, then nothing happens. I have no idea what the hell is going on with that thing. The battery in the code reader is brand new. I followed the instructions to the letter and tried it four or five times before getting unbelievably pissed and saying the hell with it for tonight. Could there be any reason that you know of that my EEC isn't giving any codes at all? This is starting to extremely agitate an otherwise cool individual.

Dave

[This message has been edited by D&R Stang (edited 08-16-2001).]

jimberg · 08-16-2001, 11:27 AM

Just try a jumper wire and get your codes from the check engine light.

Jump from the single wire gray connector to the big test connector like below. The yellow wire is the jumper wire.

Turn your ignition to the on position and start counting flashes of the Check Engine light.

If you don't at least get an 11, there may be something wrong with your ECM or ECM relay.

------------------
351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

[This message has been edited by jimberg (edited 08-16-2001).]

08-16-2001, 11:57 AM

I thought about that last night, however I didn't see the check engine light. It doesn't come on when I turn the key, and it's not where all of my other "dummy" lights are. Does an 88 have a check engine light? It's got a little cluster of them to the right of the steering wheel, gas,low coolant, and two others, but no engine light.

jimberg · 08-16-2001, 12:39 PM

Here's where the check engine light should be.

------------------
351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

08-16-2001, 01:08 PM

Thanks again Jim, I'm sure it's there, I was probably just so pissed last night that when I didn't see it with the rest of my lights, I just said forget it. Of course the way this is going, it would be my luck that my check engine light doesn't work either for some ungodly reason. I'll try that and get back with ya.
Dave

08-16-2001, 01:35 PM

I think I just found out why I couldn't pull any codes. I looked up the website of the company that made my code reader and they said that sometimes the resistance on the pigtail is too strong. They suggested that I run a jumper wire from that pigtail to the neg bat terminal and not hook the pigtail up to the reader, then try the codes that way. I'll give that a shot as well.

Just FYI

08-16-2001, 07:45 PM

Boy can I call them or what!?!? I tried the jumper wire Jim told me to try and guess what......the engine light didn't come on at all. Does this mean I need to start tracing wires or does anyone else have an idea of where to check connections or what? I'm lost and pissed. Thanks in Advance,
Dave

08-16-2001, 10:12 PM

I finally got the codes to work by jumping off of the negative battery terminal. Anyways, this thing just starting shooting all kinds of codes at me. KOEO - 22, 53, 54, 35, 67, 81, 82, 85, 95, 51, 52. From what I can tell these aren't the "hot codes". These are the 2nd set of codes read. Before the pause between the two sets, it gave a 5, I know that's not an actual code, but that's all it did. I performed the test three times with the same results. I'm not really surprised at the amount of electrical problems this car may have. The guy who owned it before me put this motor in. It was previously carbed in a 4 banger chassis. Between a different (13 year old) chassis and EEC, and converting to EFI, who knows what isn't connected correctly. Any ideas?
Dave
Dave

08-14-2001, 11:16 AM	#1
D&R Stang Guest Posts: n/a	cut it off and absolutely refuses to restart,until.... (long) I've had my 88GT for about 5 months now, and twice, it's done this to me. The first time was about four months ago right in the middle of a "cruise night", OF ALL PLACES!! I was backing out verrrry slloooowwly because it was so crowded and my car died. I thought maybe I just accidentally killed it, no biggy, but then I went to immediately restart it but it wouldn't fire up! I smelled gas after trying to start it a few times. I checked for spark, fine. I checked the lines for fuel, fine. I had no idea what to do and since I didn't know hardly anything about EFI, I called some fellow stangers over and they couldn't figure it out either. So, I went back to the very basics. Fuel, Fire, Air. I had fuel, I had spark. I pulled the air intake off of the MAF, and it started just fine with the exception of all of the white smoke from the tailpipes from the fuel buildup. I just assumed that it was a coincidence and it didn't do it again, so I never worried about why that worked until yesterday. I pulled into a gas station, and got in line behind another car and cut mine off. I was almost out of gas, but not completely empty. When he moved, I tried to start my car and again, it wouldn't fire up. I then realized, I didn't hear the fuel pump priming. After popping the hood and making sure I didn't melt my solenoid or anything like that, I remembered what had happened a few months ago, and pulled the air intake off of the MAF. Again, if fired up. WHY?!?!?!? Is my fuel pump dying? This makes no sense to me. What's the deal with this air intake thing? The air intake isn't the same as it was the last time either. I had Moroso Cold Air the first time it happened and now I have Homemade Ram Air. If anyone could let me know what might be the problem, it would be great. SORRY SO LONG!! ------------------ Dave & Robin 88 GT, T5 306, polished crank, Speed Pro Powerforged pistons, ARP rod bolts, underdrive pulleys, cold air induction, 73mm MAF, Xtreme Energy Cam, 3.73's, 1 5/8 unequal length headers, Offroad H-pipe, 2 chamber flowmasters, turn-downs, King Cobra Clutch, Steeda adjustable clutch cable with firewall adjuster

08-14-2001, 11:27 AM	#2
jimberg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 2,089	The very first thing you should do, or anyone should do when they have severe problems such as this, is retrieve the codes from the computer. There's a good explanation on how to do this on Corral.net under the Electronics section of the technical articles. All you really need is a piece of wire with spade connectors on each end. I keep one in my glove box now. Can you describe a little more about what you mean by removing the air intake off of the MAF? Did you just pull the hose off of the throttle body side of the MAF sensor? Did you actually disconnect the connector going to the MAF? ------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

08-14-2001, 11:36 AM	#3
D&R Stang Guest Posts: n/a	What I meant by that is where the MAF connects to what would be the air box (if I had one), I just took the rubber tube off of the MAF, so basically the air was coming straight into the meter. No air filter, no air tubes, just straight into the MAF. The thing that worried me was that, I didn't hear the fuel pump priming when it wouldn't start. It seems fine again now, but who knows when the next time this will happen and where I'll be then. [This message has been edited by D&R Stang (edited 08-14-2001).]

08-14-2001, 11:48 AM	#4
jimberg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 2,089	Okay. I guess you should probably retrieve the codes. It's possible that you may have a bad wire going into the MAF sensor and when you moved it to remove it from the air box it was able to make a propper connection again. You may want to try wiggling the MAF sensor wires while idling to see if it quits on you. You may also have a fault MAF sensor itself that comes alive when you wiggle it. ------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

08-14-2001, 11:51 AM	#5
PrplMonster Registered Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Posts: 88	curiosity tells me to check how dirty your air filter is. Also, how many miles are on the car? could need a fuel filter. What about a fouled plug. You said you had white smoke, which is definately NOT unburned fuel. just my .02 .dave

08-14-2001, 02:21 PM	#6
D&R Stang Guest Posts: n/a	The air and fuel filters are about two weeks old, and playing with the wires on the air meter doesn't seem to affect anything. Once I started it back up, I hooked the air induction back up and it seems fine. It only smoked for about two seconds after I finally got it to start. I'll get some codes and get back with you guys. I have one other question though. From your experiences, when a factory fuel pump starts to go bad, does it just die, or does it sometimes show warning signs before it completely goes? Thanks for your help. Dave [This message has been edited by D&R Stang (edited 08-14-2001).]

08-14-2001, 02:39 PM	#7
Harry Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Dayton, OH USA Posts: 678	I think the fuel pumps will give you warning before they go out, at least mine did. They will start to get really noisy. When they get this way, it's time to change them. The fact that the car started back up after disconnecting the air intake would indicate it's not really a fuel pump, I would think. ------------------ See my 1985 Mustang GT

08-14-2001, 02:53 PM	#8
CT5.0 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Plantsville,CT Posts: 2	It could be the dreaded TFI module. They're notorious for occasional stalling problems due to heat build up. Was your engine running and warm when these instances occurred? ------------------ 1988 LX Hatchback, GT40's, Edelbrock Performer, 2031, 1.7's, MSD 6A, Stock T-5, HD FMS Clutch, 3.55's, OR H-pipe, 190 pump, E/L shorties, much more!

08-14-2001, 04:47 PM	#9
D&R Stang Guest Posts: n/a	The motor was warm, but it never stalled. I shut it off manually both of these times, and both times I tried to start it back up within one minute. The only reason I was thinking of the pump was like I stated previously, when it wouldn't start, I would turn the key and did not hear the pump priming itself. It's wierd because it's only happenned twice so far and the two times have been months apart.

08-14-2001, 05:59 PM	#10
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Sounds like the fuel pump relay is going out. I think the MAF connection is just a time killing coincidence that gave the relay time to cool. The relay is under your seat, and is subject to heat, just like the rest of your floorboard. Heat is not a relay's best buddy. If it's the original relay, replace it. 13 years is very old for a relay that is used every minute of vehicle operation. Codes could confirm this. Pull and post them. Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

08-14-2001, 10:06 PM	#11
BlackFly Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: winnipeg , manitoba , canada Posts: 83	for what its worth , i've seen two fuel pumps go the same way. that was while driving it bucked and died. started back up and lasted for months before happening again. it then took longer for it to start each time it would do that. sometimes a few minutes. right now my pump is in the same state. i went to start my horse in the morning. no pump sound, no fuel, no nice ride to work. got home and the sucker started right up. the new pump is on its way as we type.

08-14-2001, 11:02 PM	#12
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	Usually, when I've seen fuel pumps go out, they go out by killing on longer trips first. Usually, mine have sounded strange when they go out. They still "prime" but it's loud and off key, and it's not really pumping anything. I don't know if the MAF cars route the fuel pump relay systems through the MAF sensor or not. If they do, the MAF may be suspect. Good luck!

08-16-2001, 09:59 AM	#13
D&R Stang Guest Posts: n/a	It did it to me again yesterday evening. What could putting gas in an almost empty tank have to do with not starting anymore. That's the only time it does this!! Yesterday, I pulled up to the pump, turned the car off, filled it up, got back in it and it wouldn't fire up. I left it for an hour and went to the parts store and got a code reader, then went out to eat and came back to the car. Then it started fine. I drove it home and hooked up the scanner, but it won't send any codes, NONE!!! It just beeps once when I start the test, then nothing happens. I have no idea what the hell is going on with that thing. The battery in the code reader is brand new. I followed the instructions to the letter and tried it four or five times before getting unbelievably pissed and saying the hell with it for tonight. Could there be any reason that you know of that my EEC isn't giving any codes at all? This is starting to extremely agitate an otherwise cool individual. Dave [This message has been edited by D&R Stang (edited 08-16-2001).]

08-16-2001, 11:27 AM	#14
jimberg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 2,089	Just try a jumper wire and get your codes from the check engine light. Jump from the single wire gray connector to the big test connector like below. The yellow wire is the jumper wire. Turn your ignition to the on position and start counting flashes of the Check Engine light. If you don't at least get an 11, there may be something wrong with your ECM or ECM relay. ------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible [This message has been edited by jimberg (edited 08-16-2001).]

08-16-2001, 11:57 AM	#15
D&R Stang Guest Posts: n/a	I thought about that last night, however I didn't see the check engine light. It doesn't come on when I turn the key, and it's not where all of my other "dummy" lights are. Does an 88 have a check engine light? It's got a little cluster of them to the right of the steering wheel, gas,low coolant, and two others, but no engine light.

08-16-2001, 12:39 PM	#16
jimberg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 2,089	Here's where the check engine light should be. ------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

08-16-2001, 01:08 PM	#17
D&R Stang Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks again Jim, I'm sure it's there, I was probably just so pissed last night that when I didn't see it with the rest of my lights, I just said forget it. Of course the way this is going, it would be my luck that my check engine light doesn't work either for some ungodly reason. I'll try that and get back with ya. Dave

08-16-2001, 01:35 PM	#18
D&R Stang Guest Posts: n/a	I think I just found out why I couldn't pull any codes. I looked up the website of the company that made my code reader and they said that sometimes the resistance on the pigtail is too strong. They suggested that I run a jumper wire from that pigtail to the neg bat terminal and not hook the pigtail up to the reader, then try the codes that way. I'll give that a shot as well. Just FYI

08-16-2001, 07:45 PM	#19
D&R Stang Guest Posts: n/a	Boy can I call them or what!?!? I tried the jumper wire Jim told me to try and guess what......the engine light didn't come on at all. Does this mean I need to start tracing wires or does anyone else have an idea of where to check connections or what? I'm lost and pissed. Thanks in Advance, Dave

08-16-2001, 10:12 PM	#20
D&R Stang Guest Posts: n/a	I finally got the codes to work by jumping off of the negative battery terminal. Anyways, this thing just starting shooting all kinds of codes at me. KOEO - 22, 53, 54, 35, 67, 81, 82, 85, 95, 51, 52. From what I can tell these aren't the "hot codes". These are the 2nd set of codes read. Before the pause between the two sets, it gave a 5, I know that's not an actual code, but that's all it did. I performed the test three times with the same results. I'm not really surprised at the amount of electrical problems this car may have. The guy who owned it before me put this motor in. It was previously carbed in a 4 banger chassis. Between a different (13 year old) chassis and EEC, and converting to EFI, who knows what isn't connected correctly. Any ideas? Dave Dave