cylinder head guru's, please help!

Mach 1 · 02-15-2002, 05:40 AM

It appears that my valve spring dampners are cutting into my valve spring shims.

I found metal shavings around my rocker arms when I tore it down. I guess this was the source?

Anyway, what would cause this? My springs are rated I believe up to .575 lift, and Im running around a .540 lift cam.

They are edelbrock performer 5.0 heads. The shims appear to be of a fairly light weight and flimsy material. Do I just need stronger shims, or do I have another problem?

And where can I buy replacement shims?

Also, there is a number stamped into the head by each spring seat. Its eithier 45 or 60. I assume this is the thickness that the shim is supposed to be for that corresponding spring seat in thousands of an inch. Is that correct?

WADS56 · 02-15-2002, 06:12 AM

I am no guru but I rememder reading a post about this exact thing on the corral a few months ago. They said that this was a problem on some of the older Edelbrok heads. You may want to do a search over there or make a post it was a big topic.

Jeff Chambers · 02-15-2002, 07:55 AM

You might want to consider using some hardened spring cups. Comp Cams sells them for most spring/head combinations. This will put the shim between the head and the cup so that you won't chew it up.

Mach 1 · 02-15-2002, 08:07 AM

would I need to make the spring cup and shim combination the same thickness as the original shim only set up?

86GT · 02-15-2002, 12:58 PM

There was a post a while back about this. From what I remember Edelbrock knows of this problem and will send you a set of spring cups/seats, all you have to do is get them put in. Myself I haven't had this problem (yet).

LX XLR8R · 02-15-2002, 01:07 PM

as i can remeber my performer 5.0 stock spings had to be replaced when i got my new cam (.555/.565)..i never saw a metal shaving problem with mine though..just some float up top

Mach 1 · 02-15-2002, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 86GT
There was a post a while back about this. From what I remember Edelbrock knows of this problem and will send you a set of spring cups/seats, all you have to do is get them put in. Myself I haven't had this problem (yet).

Do you know if the seats edelbrock sends out require head machining to fit?

86GT · 02-16-2002, 03:28 PM

I think they have to be machined in, I wish I could find that post. It was either on here or on the corral. Last night when I was at work, I found out that a co-worker's son had this same problem. All they did was get new springs with hardended shims and that solved the problem. Something worth considering as it may save machining costs.

Mach 1 · 02-16-2002, 05:59 PM

I e-mailed edelbrocks tech. department, and this is what they wrote back:

"you may quite possibly need some stronger shims, its a very odd case, but it can happen. I can mail you out free of charge some new spring cups, not just a shim, but a very strong cup to install in place of the shims. You will however have to have the spring pocket of the heads opened up to accept these bigger cups."

Shane Turner
Edelbrock Tech Dept.

" a very odd case"....lol..what a line of bull that is. Apparently this is a common problem.

One person I talked to said he got around machining the head by buying some comp cams. "spring locators". they are similar to a spring cup, but dont have the "cup portion". More like a shim with a boss on the inside that sits inside the spring. Although they dont come in the correct diameter for my existing head spring seat, I could have them turned down at a machine shop to fit in the head, instead of enlarging the head spring pocket itself.

I guess a hardened shim would work also? I dont think I need new springs? The edelbrock springs look fine and should handle my cam with .533/.540 lift ok.

I guess Ill eithier buy new springs and shims, just new shims(hardened), comp cams spring locators and have them cut to fit, or machine the heads to accept the edelbrock spring cups they are supposed to send me.

Any more suggestions or recommendations?

PKRWUD · 02-16-2002, 08:18 PM

As I said privately, I use cups in all my heads.

BTW, I've got news for you regarding the Sprint car block. I've got to get in the shower and go, though. Tonight is the trophy dinner and such, but I'll fill you in later.

Take care,
-Chris

PKRWUD · 02-17-2002, 09:41 PM

Chris-

Update on the Sprint car engine:

Jim (car owner) and I don't agree on who should do our machine work. He, however, is the boss, so we go with his guy. We got the block sleeved okay, but when he was decking the block, he took off more than he should have, which put our valves and our pistons into each other, or at least would have if we hadn't checked. As a result, we had no choice but to install copper head gaskets, which are a little thicker, and provide the clearance we need. I've clayed them twice now, and they appear to be okay. We are definately talking about a new block next year though, if not sooner. The lifters and rockers needed to be replaced, but we already knew that, and I got that done this week. The engine is just about ready to be installed, and we'll probably do that in the morning. We were going to do it today, but he had prior arangements with his wife that he had forgotten about, and I wanted to watch the race. On top of that, it rained for a little bit this morning, and created a "cold, damp, unpleasant work environment", according to Jim. Must be So Cal, right?

We also rebuilt the rear end and reinstalled it this week. The Winters "Quick Change" rear end is designed with a "permenant" ring and pinion, and quick change final gears. The ring and pinion looked worn, but certainly good enough for another season, but Jim elected to replace them with a newer set he picked up somewhere.

Last night was the Trophy Banquet, and we all got to sit around and get drunk, and then have to get up and say something when the trophies and jackets were presented. We were rolling by nights end! next Saturday is the first of two open practices at the track, and our goal was to be there for both, but it's starting to look like we'll have to wait for the open practice the following Saturday to make sure everything is cool. That is the one thing that kinda sucks about a Sprint car; you can't fine tune it on the street in front of your house!

The Orange and Blue paint scheme is okay. It's taking some getting used to, but it will work. I'll try and remember to take some pics.

Take care,
-Chris

Mach 1 · 02-17-2002, 11:33 PM

Thats great man..sounds like a lot of fun and a lot of work...a good combination.

NO SLO PK · 02-18-2002, 12:13 PM

Hey all, I have Edelbrock heads and my machinist friend profiled the bottom of the springs with a die grinder to remove the sharp edges. I had the heads inspected after 20k miles and the spring seats were just fine.

Usually I have the rev cups installed, and I can't remember why I didn't this time. What I have seems to work okay.

Mach 1 · 02-18-2002, 01:40 PM

edelbrock tech. department told me thier newer heads already are machined to accept spring cups.

How old are your heads? I bought mine 4 years ago.

He didnt say they came with spring cups, just that they were machined to accept spring cups. Apparently, Ford heads have never used spring cups?

Is this just a GM thing?

02-15-2002, 05:40 AM	#1
Mach 1 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,866	cylinder head guru's, please help! It appears that my valve spring dampners are cutting into my valve spring shims. I found metal shavings around my rocker arms when I tore it down. I guess this was the source? Anyway, what would cause this? My springs are rated I believe up to .575 lift, and Im running around a .540 lift cam. They are edelbrock performer 5.0 heads. The shims appear to be of a fairly light weight and flimsy material. Do I just need stronger shims, or do I have another problem? And where can I buy replacement shims? Also, there is a number stamped into the head by each spring seat. Its eithier 45 or 60. I assume this is the thickness that the shim is supposed to be for that corresponding spring seat in thousands of an inch. Is that correct? __________________ 2002 GT 1993 GT (SOLD) '93 Mustang GT RHC member #142 Last edited by Mach 1; 02-15-2002 at 08:05 AM..

02-15-2002, 06:12 AM	#2
WADS56 gear banger Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: CHICAGO Posts: 1,144	I am no guru but I rememder reading a post about this exact thing on the corral a few months ago. They said that this was a problem on some of the older Edelbrok heads. You may want to do a search over there or make a post it was a big topic. __________________ 79 Hatch: NA 347, Stage 2 Canfield Heads, Victor JR. Intake, Blueprinted Holley 750 HP, Solid Roller Cam, Shooting for 10's on motor 93 LX: Tremec, dual friction clutch, fms flywheel, Hedman shorties, O/R H-pipe Ricer hater's club member #49

02-15-2002, 07:55 AM	#3
Jeff Chambers Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Milan, OH Posts: 2,699	You might want to consider using some hardened spring cups. Comp Cams sells them for most spring/head combinations. This will put the shim between the head and the cup so that you won't chew it up. __________________ Jeff Chambers 1990 Mustang GT 10.032 Seconds / 137.5 MPH 14-time Street Warrior World Record Setter CRT Performance 2001 Tropic Green Mustang GT - 12.181 / 113.2 MPH 2002 Ford F-250 Crew Cab 7.3l Power Stroke - 17.41@77.2 "There's nothing boring about a small block automatic shifting gears at 9400 rpm!"

02-15-2002, 08:07 AM	#4
Mach 1 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,866	would I need to make the spring cup and shim combination the same thickness as the original shim only set up? __________________ 2002 GT 1993 GT (SOLD) '93 Mustang GT RHC member #142

02-15-2002, 12:58 PM	#5
86GT Sniffed too much n20 Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Ont, Canada Posts: 1,018	Call Edelbrock There was a post a while back about this. From what I remember Edelbrock knows of this problem and will send you a set of spring cups/seats, all you have to do is get them put in. Myself I haven't had this problem (yet).

02-15-2002, 01:07 PM	#6
LX XLR8R Dirk Diggler Join Date: Feb 1999 Location: SLOATSBURG, NY Posts: 1,931	as i can remeber my performer 5.0 stock spings had to be replaced when i got my new cam (.555/.565)..i never saw a metal shaving problem with mine though..just some float up top __________________ 95 undecided cubes, AFR 185s,undecided cam, undecided intake, and a 150 hit 89 "turbonotch" 2.3T You might want to hold on..i saw this on a cartoon once

02-16-2002, 03:28 PM	#8
86GT Sniffed too much n20 Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Ont, Canada Posts: 1,018	I think they have to be machined in, I wish I could find that post. It was either on here or on the corral. Last night when I was at work, I found out that a co-worker's son had this same problem. All they did was get new springs with hardended shims and that solved the problem. Something worth considering as it may save machining costs.

02-16-2002, 05:59 PM	#9
Mach 1 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,866	I e-mailed edelbrocks tech. department, and this is what they wrote back: "you may quite possibly need some stronger shims, its a very odd case, but it can happen. I can mail you out free of charge some new spring cups, not just a shim, but a very strong cup to install in place of the shims. You will however have to have the spring pocket of the heads opened up to accept these bigger cups." Shane Turner Edelbrock Tech Dept. " a very odd case"....lol..what a line of bull that is. Apparently this is a common problem. One person I talked to said he got around machining the head by buying some comp cams. "spring locators". they are similar to a spring cup, but dont have the "cup portion". More like a shim with a boss on the inside that sits inside the spring. Although they dont come in the correct diameter for my existing head spring seat, I could have them turned down at a machine shop to fit in the head, instead of enlarging the head spring pocket itself. I guess a hardened shim would work also? I dont think I need new springs? The edelbrock springs look fine and should handle my cam with .533/.540 lift ok. I guess Ill eithier buy new springs and shims, just new shims(hardened), comp cams spring locators and have them cut to fit, or machine the heads to accept the edelbrock spring cups they are supposed to send me. Any more suggestions or recommendations? __________________ 2002 GT 1993 GT (SOLD) '93 Mustang GT RHC member #142

02-16-2002, 08:18 PM	#10
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	As I said privately, I use cups in all my heads. BTW, I've got news for you regarding the Sprint car block. I've got to get in the shower and go, though. Tonight is the trophy dinner and such, but I'll fill you in later. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

02-17-2002, 09:41 PM	#11
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Chris- Update on the Sprint car engine: Jim (car owner) and I don't agree on who should do our machine work. He, however, is the boss, so we go with his guy. We got the block sleeved okay, but when he was decking the block, he took off more than he should have, which put our valves and our pistons into each other, or at least would have if we hadn't checked. As a result, we had no choice but to install copper head gaskets, which are a little thicker, and provide the clearance we need. I've clayed them twice now, and they appear to be okay. We are definately talking about a new block next year though, if not sooner. The lifters and rockers needed to be replaced, but we already knew that, and I got that done this week. The engine is just about ready to be installed, and we'll probably do that in the morning. We were going to do it today, but he had prior arangements with his wife that he had forgotten about, and I wanted to watch the race. On top of that, it rained for a little bit this morning, and created a "cold, damp, unpleasant work environment", according to Jim. Must be So Cal, right? We also rebuilt the rear end and reinstalled it this week. The Winters "Quick Change" rear end is designed with a "permenant" ring and pinion, and quick change final gears. The ring and pinion looked worn, but certainly good enough for another season, but Jim elected to replace them with a newer set he picked up somewhere. Last night was the Trophy Banquet, and we all got to sit around and get drunk, and then have to get up and say something when the trophies and jackets were presented. We were rolling by nights end! next Saturday is the first of two open practices at the track, and our goal was to be there for both, but it's starting to look like we'll have to wait for the open practice the following Saturday to make sure everything is cool. That is the one thing that kinda sucks about a Sprint car; you can't fine tune it on the street in front of your house! The Orange and Blue paint scheme is okay. It's taking some getting used to, but it will work. I'll try and remember to take some pics. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

02-17-2002, 11:33 PM	#12
Mach 1 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,866	Thats great man..sounds like a lot of fun and a lot of work...a good combination. __________________ 2002 GT 1993 GT (SOLD) '93 Mustang GT RHC member #142

02-18-2002, 12:13 PM	#13
NO SLO PK Registered Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Arcadia, CA, USA Posts: 731	Hey all, I have Edelbrock heads and my machinist friend profiled the bottom of the springs with a die grinder to remove the sharp edges. I had the heads inspected after 20k miles and the spring seats were just fine. Usually I have the rev cups installed, and I can't remember why I didn't this time. What I have seems to work okay. __________________ Russ L '91 LX - 331 w/ Procharger '03 Cobra Convertible - Pullied '94 Lightning '65 Mustang Coupe

02-18-2002, 01:40 PM	#14
Mach 1 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,866	edelbrock tech. department told me thier newer heads already are machined to accept spring cups. How old are your heads? I bought mine 4 years ago. He didnt say they came with spring cups, just that they were machined to accept spring cups. Apparently, Ford heads have never used spring cups? Is this just a GM thing? __________________ 2002 GT 1993 GT (SOLD) '93 Mustang GT RHC member #142

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