Intake gasket woes.....any suggestions?

[jim_howard_pdx]

I am running a 30 over 351 Windsor block, with Trick Flow aluminum heads and an Edelbrock aluminum intake manifold. After about a year the intake gaskets get all chewed up and then I suck them in with clouds of white smoke to amuse everyone around me.

I have seen that the chevy guys have a new intake manifold gasket to reduce this shredding effect on aluminum head to aluminum manifold seals.

Does anyone have a recommendation?

Jim

AND NO, I WILL NOT PUT IN A SBC in my Mustang! I have way too much fun spanking them to join them.

[Dark Knight]

what gasket are you using?

try the fel-pro 1262...

[Gearhead999]

Have the heads been machined??

Is the joint between the intake and the heads a nice straight fit??

I wouldn't run end gaskets on the intake. Use RTV only. Will fit tighter.

[jim_howard_pdx]

I am using Felpro perma seal gaskets for ported heads. The block was squared and the heads were surfaced. The gap is straight and regular. I use only RTV at the valley NO CORK for this racer.

The gaskets seal fine for many months. But the aluminum heads walk the iron block (this is normal) and the heads and the intake grow as they heat, and shrink as they cool every time I run the car. After about a year, the felpros litterly shred. They are torn to pieces. I have shown these to my racer friends and they are all amazed. Each thinks it is an intake manifold torque issue, but now that I see the chevy guys are demanding specialized intake gaskets to eliminate this problem I see it as an aluminum issue, not a machining/torque issue.

I am wondering if anyone has tried using dead soft aluminum or copper intake gaskets instead of the rubberized paper felpros?

[jim_howard_pdx]

Hey, while I am getting all this great help and suggestions, does anyone know how to post a picture of my car under my name? I do not know how to accomplish this. When you see the car you will be in total lust.

Jim

[Gearhead999]

Never saw that on a Ford. Ran in to problems on hogged out chevy heads that were angle cut for compression, but never a sbf.

When you say the heads walk. You do have the locator pins on the heads don't you?? True they do expand at a different rate then the block, but the intake is aluminumn too.

Are the gaskets thick enough??? Are the ports so big that they blow out???

Do you have the correct intake gaskets. Not to offend, but there are about three different intake gaskets considering the water outlet size and shape for a sbf.

1. Early one kind of "L" shaped
2. Later square
3 Later yet a larger square

Don't ask me, or remind me how I know this one. UGH !!!!

[Gearhead999]

One more thing.

You retorque the intake after you run it intially??

[jim_howard_pdx]

Lots of great suggestions.

Yes I am running head dowls. I always use new dowls everytime the heads come off.

I run the ford racing graphite head gaskets after blowing a Perma-Torque gasket. All aluminum heads walk on a cast iron head. They expand and shrink at a much different rate than cast iron. Guys this is just basic physics not rocket science.

The heads were surfaced with a .010 cut. The deck was squared. But the intake to head clearance is straight and square. I checked this with silly putty.

I will contact Mr Gasket and ask when they will have a ported head version for small block fords. They have got to provide for those of us running Twisted Wedge or R-Type Trick Flow heads eventually.

I was hoping someone out there might be using aluminum or copper gaskets or specialty composite gaskets that would eliminate the shredding.

Yes I torque my intake bolts about every 4 months. Otherwise they loosen up a bit and I get some coolant loss. It is just about a 10-20 inch pound retorque. It is not like they are backing out like header bolts can do.

I appreciate the ideas, but I really need a better gasket than felpro produces. I use the felpro gaskets recommended by Trick Flow, and they were of no help to me on this question in case you want to know. They do make a great head if you have to run against the hot Chevy's in town.

[Gearhead999]

No problem do understand about the difference in expansion/contraction of aluminum vs. cast iron. Just never ran in to a problem before. Unless something is to extreme.
That's why, I'm sure, the OEM people install stretch bolts on their aluminum head engines.

Boy, you should try and tell a customer that has just blown a head gasket/head that besides gaskets, oil, labor, etc. He also needs new head bolts. They look at you with this glassed over look like you are telling them that the muffler bearings are bad....

I don't think you will be happy with solid copper gaskets. They are very hard and always seep. I use to run them on a turbo. They were great cause when the head would "walk" and try and lift off motor at full boost, the gaskets wouldn't blow. Just seep alittle, then seal up when everything came back to normal.

Have you tried the older factory white intake gaskets. If you can find them. Those things use to stick to anything. Were fairly thick too.

I'm interested in your problem cause I have a 351W stroker to 426 I'm putting together in my shop. Have ported Elderbrock heads for it. And DON'T need a sealing problem.

Let me know how you make out.

Thanks

[jim_howard_pdx]

Now I'm envious.

Just about every day I wish I had put a stroker crank in my block. Not because I am losing, I am winning. But because my favorite street engine of all time has been the 428 cobra jet. Getting 426 cubic inches from a windsor block is just a salivating thought. With RPM or Victor heads from Edelbrock you should be in the 500 hp range with a fairly streetable cam. That is like buying the Shelby GT 500 with the 427!.

You know Shelby told his lot guys to drive the GT 500's to the gate, hand the keys to the customer and say THERE IS NO WARRANTY!
That is what you have to look forward to.

I have run LS-6 and LS-7 engines, but they just do not make the torque of the 428 CJ. My ideal engine would be a 427 side oiler, .05 over with a stroked 428 crank to displace 500 Cubic Inches. The problem is with the heads. These were old technology with poor swirl and poor quench. It is really hard to get these engines above 600 hp. But the torque is magnificent.

I will beg the Mr Gasket guys to do us sbf guys a favor. If they stall me, I will get a set of the factory gaskets and cut them to fit. It will take me a year to tell you the outcome. The damage to the gasket is a very slow and progressive problem.

What people do not know about intakes is that the air speed inside a HP engine approaches the speed of sound. That is over 500 mph! The air flow pulls in on the intake gasket and as it shreds it pulls out the gasket between the intake runner and the front water crossover. When that area gets sucked in, the white smoke is impressive!

It is interesting that the magazines do not really go into the physics behind bolt stretch. They do not necessarily understand that it is the stretch you are after as you torque the bolt. The final torque setting has nothing to do with head sealing, it is the fact that the bolt has stretched to the point where it will provide the highest clamping force to minimize the head walk. I only use ARP head bolts or head studs because of this. They really test their alloys to see that the stretch point is consistent bolt to bolt.

I really have nothing good to say about the Edelbrock heads. You are giving up some really serious power unless you use their Victor series and then your low end torque goes to hell. The Trick Flow type R head runs 1800.00 and make over 600 hp on a 427 Windsor configuration with their 12.5 to 1 pistons and a decent roller cam. The Edelbrock Victor made about 565 hp with the same optimum piston. I would not give up 30 hp to anyone, anytime.

Horsepower is all in the swirl generated by the intake stroke, and the quench created at the compression stroke. The Edelbrock just does not position your intake valve to properly generate swirl. The trick flow heads position the intake almost in the center of the piston for maximum swirl and boy does it show up on the ol dyno and at the race track. Out of the box, my Trick Flow heads made 10 more horsepower than the CNC RPM Edelbrock sbf head. With my mild intake port work to match the Edelbrock RPM intake, some polishing on the combustion, and a gasket port match on the exhaust side, I am making more horsepower with a more streetable cam. This makes for a nice street engine. My engine idles almost like stock and yet when I hammer the throttle the car sounds like NASCAR. 2.5 inch exhaust with Edelbrock RPM mufflers really let the exhaust flow rip. I will run against the modified Hondas and Mitsubishis and when the engine comes on they just look over and stare as I pass them a good 25 mph faster than the are running as they shift from first to second. In second gear I hip 100 mph in 10 seconds which puts me about 30 car lengths ahead of them and now they just hit 70! SUCH FUN! I own a Civic with a VTEC engine and I love the car, but it is a model rocket compared to a Saturn V!

Good luck with your engine. I have some great carb recommendations for you if you plan to be low tech with the intake.

If not, go with the brand new Trick Flow upper and lower manifolds with the 90mm air assembly. This will support over 600 hp. You can read more about this new piece in the just released Summit catalog. You will find that alot of the Lingenfelter Chevy guys are running sequential 1,000 cfm air systems in their 406 engines. This new piece is the only product that bolts to a Ford that can keep you competitive against that technology. Add Nitrous and 600+ hp is assured!

[Gearhead999]

Thanks for the info. You sure have done your homework on sbf's.

I had a 68 1/2 428 CJ. It is awsome. Fast as hell, loads of torque too. The car I had was factory "R" car. A little rough to drive around here in Sunny Florida. Sold it...

Have a 68 Mustang FB with 289 now. Lots of work, roller cam, dual AFB's, AOD trans, 9 inch rear, 3.50 gears, hooker headers, 2 1/2 inch exhaust and ported factory 58 cc heads. Forgot windage tray, forged pistons, .060 overbore too.

The 426 I am building is for my brother. He is going to put it in a custom built Pantera. Yes, Yes I know they came with a 351C. But a stroked 351W is street power and that is what I build. I have a roller hyd Crane cam and MSD dist.

I would like to hear your input on induction. The car will have a 4 barrel carb and somebodies aluminum intake. Still haven't decided.

I am going to run the Elderbrock head, cause when I started this engine, several years ago, Crane recomended them and the pistons have been cut for the 2.02 chevy valves. If you remember Trick flow was having problems with their head then. Valve guides I think. Anyway, I'm sure I'll make enough power with the combo I have.

So, talk to me about your feels on intake. I have mine, but god only know, I'm open and listening.

[Rev]

Gearhead, why didn.t you advise use of ARP head bolts / studs to begin with? Only $30-40.

Rev

[jim_howard_pdx]

Use the Weiand "Stealth" dual plane or the Edelbrock Victor single plane. Use an 800 or 850 vacumn advance barry grant carb with annular boosters front and rear. Use restrictors on the transition circuit and you should still hit 14-18 mpg. This should be good for about 450 hp with a modest roller cam and up to 525 hp with a strong street roller cam. Go with the Victor single plane and you will get an additional 10-15 hp but lose the torque under 2,500 rpm.

I do not like to sacrafice low end torque on a street engine. So I would stick with the dual plane. The Weiand is good to 6,500 RPM but when we dyno the Edelbrock there seems to be no big difference between the Performer 351 and the RPM 351 manifold. I am using the RPM 351 and wish I had tried the Weiand unit.

Is the Pantara running a 4 speed ZF or a 5 speed ZF? If it has overdrive, make sure to run the dual plane. If it has the 4 speed, then the single plane will really power when at top speed. One of my California buds got 181 mph with a 351 Cleveland, Webber downdrafts and Nitrous. The engine dynoed at 575 hp. It was one awesome show car with every engine piece either chromed or polished. It had tasteful fender flairs and custom yellow paint. Man what a looker. I drooled over that car. It was a little piece of Ford heaven.

I learned from my friend that all of these Ford Cleveland engines for the Pantara were shipped to Italy where they were machined to racing tolerances and then balanced and blueprinted. Stock, the engine was putting out nearly 375 hp where the American version struggled to produce 330 hp.

He blew up his original engine and had the show engine built by valley heads in Chatsworth. Just the head work they did ran 2,000 bucks. They cut out the exhaust port, then bolted up a plate that raised the ports by 1/2 inch. They ran it like the D style rat heads of old. Man did these heads flow. We did a run to Las Vegas and got pulled over at 171. The Cop did not even write a ticket, he just wanted to make sure we had proper safety equipment, good tires and brakes. We had 5 point racing harnesses, full back race seats, racing brakes, great tires and all the normal safety stuff. We also had a roll bar, which saved us the ticket. He just asked us not to pass another Patrol car on our way to the car show!!!!!