engine fired for the first time.... almost

93GTDIN · 06-30-2002, 12:57 PM

This is in regards to the motor in my signature.

Last night we put the finishing touches on the engine and fired it up for the first time. We had to play with the timing a bit to get it to fire at all, and when we did get it to fire, it died instantly. Some more timing tuning, and we could get it to fire more consistantly. Since then, the only thing we have been able to get it to do is this:

When I turn the key, it fires, revs instantly to about 2000 rpm's (without my foot on the gas) and dies.

It does this every time, and I havent been able to figure out what is wrong. The EEC Test shows code 96 which is "fuel pump circuitry". I did recently put in a new fuel pump, so I suppose its possible I screwed something up down there. My question is, is it possible for the computer to detect a problem from the fuel pump and then keep the engine from idling because it thinks the problem is serious?

Any other ideas or tips are very much appreciated.

dino

PKRWUD · 06-30-2002, 01:26 PM

It sounds to me like the fuel pump turns on for two seconds when you turn the key on, but doesn't stay on. Try this: ground the fuel pump terminal in the self test connector under the hood (the place you go for codes). The fuel pump terminal, when looking at the plug so the two terminals are above the four terminals, is the farthest to the right, in the row of 4 terminals. place a jumper between that terminal and ground, and try to start it. Post your results.

Take care,
-Chris

93GTDIN · 06-30-2002, 03:27 PM

I tested that pin on the eec conector for resistance, and it read 1.6~1.7 k ohms. If it is a ground shouldn't it read open? I looked up that wire in the book and the book says that wire is the "carb coil" something or other. Are you sure this is the wire i'm supposed to ground?

PKRWUD · 06-30-2002, 04:17 PM

I'm positive. I just spent 25 minutes trying to find a picture in one of my manuals, and did. See for your self.

Take care,
-Chris

93GTDIN · 06-30-2002, 05:20 PM

(I dont know if my last post went or not, so if this is a duplicate post, ignore it)

What really worries me is the fact that the car can't keep idle by itself (I can keep it alive by manipulating the throttle). Also, my vacuum gauge shows no vacuum at idle, but when I hit the gas, the vacuum actuall goes up (from 0 to 15 in hg). Maybe i'm confused, but shouldn't the vacuum go down when you hit the gas? Isnt this backwards?

Do you think the fuel pump issue could be causing my idle/vacuum problems?

PKRWUD · 06-30-2002, 05:41 PM

Okay, I didn't see anywhere that you could keep it running by playing with the throttle. That means it has to be getting fuel. You said it never ran more than 2 seconds, which is all it takes to use the fuel the pump provides when it primes.

You can't determine manifold vacuum if it won't run. Vacuum should drop when the throttle is opened.

You sound like you have a mess there, and rather than jump from here to there and back again, let's do this one step at a time. Try what I suggested, and see if it makes a difference. If it doesn't, fuel delivery is not the problem. That leaves air, compression and ignition, so we'll get to it, but first things first. Try grounding the fuel pump (you will hear it come on and stay on after you turn the key on) and tell me what happens.

Take care,
-Chris

93GTDIN · 06-30-2002, 05:48 PM

well when I posted that first message i couldnt get it to stay alive. We played with the timing some and now I can. I'm not 100% sure the timing is right. I'll do what you said and see if it makes a difference.

PKRWUD · 06-30-2002, 05:54 PM

If you can get it to run for more than 2 seconds, it's not the fuel pump.

Timing is simple. Line up the pointer and the TDC mark on the balancer, and set the distributor so that the rotor isjust before the #1 spark plug location on the distributor cap. Make sure you have the correct firing order:

1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

and remember that the rotor turns counter-clockwise.

Take care,
-Chris

93GTDIN · 06-30-2002, 07:09 PM

adjusting the timing does not appear to make any difference in idle quality. Even if the timing was off, it should still have vacuum at idle, shouldn't it?

I am off to the autozone to get a new IAB.

PKRWUD · 06-30-2002, 09:02 PM

I suspect your valves are adjusted too tightly.

Take care,
-Chris

93GTDIN · 06-30-2002, 09:26 PM

Before I get into all that, could the EGR be causing this? I am not running the stock H pipe so I have the EGR blocked off both in the back of the heads and between the upper and lower intake. I am still running the vacuum line to the EGR. Is there a proper way to block it off?

About the valves being adjusted to tightly, I turned the adjusting nut about 1/2 turn past zero lash and I had about 1.15 (I believe) inches between the top of the guide plate and the middle of the rocker roller which is I believe what trick flow specifies.

thanks in advance

PKRWUD · 06-30-2002, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 93GTDIN
I have the EGR blocked off ... between the upper and lower intake. I am still running the vacuum line to the EGR. Is there a proper way to block it off?

What do you mean you have it blocked off between the upper and lower intake?

jimberg · 06-30-2002, 10:18 PM

Chris, I think he means that he blocked the exhaust gas riser that's in the center of the intake.

Did you hook up all the vacuum lines correctly? The FPR should be hooked directly to the intake. The EGR should be hooked up to a vacuum line controlled by a solenoid. Start the engine and see if you have vacuum at the EGR line. You shouldn't. Check for vacuum at the FPR line. You should have some.

Have you set your idle on the throttle body? You need to loosen the idle adjustment screw until you can slide a .010" feeler gauge in between the screw and the plate. Once you confirm you have that .010" gap, give the screw 1 1/2 turns. Once that's set, make sure your TPS voltage is at about .95 volts when the throttle is closed. The IAB needs a little help from the throttle body, but it shouldn't be able to idle without the IAB connected.

Also, do what Chris says!!

The grounding of the fuel pump test lead, by the way, is what you should do when setting or testing fuel pressure. There is no reason for the engine to be running. (That's just a side note, it doesn't necessarily apply to you. )

tarmon8r · 07-01-2002, 02:48 PM

hey 93gt

chris sounds like a really sharp tech guy. i would take his advice and use the KISS principle, which seems like he is doing

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

help him help you

93GTDIN · 07-01-2002, 07:42 PM

Well I finally got it to idle. As it turns out, I broke my EGR valve because I had to bend it to use it with my kirban fuel pressure regulator. i was able to fix it, and now it idles like a champ. The idle is mean but completely tolerable.

So then I put it in gear and tried to back out of the driveway. My driveway is a 40-45 degree slope up (when you are backing out). I made it about halfway up when the car started to roll forward. I gave it more gas and then the rpms jumped to 3000 and the car wasn't going anywhere. The wheels werent spinning either. When I put the car back in the garage I took out the transmission dipstick and smoke was coming out of the tube. It reeked of burning transmission fluid. Did I toast my torque converter? help.

PKRWUD · 07-01-2002, 07:50 PM

Did you remember to fill it first?

tarmon8r · 07-01-2002, 09:22 PM

well, just from personal experience, i have done stuff like that before. well nmy stuff lasted for quite some time so it didnt seem like it hurted to much. i did just add tranny fluid and it seem to be just fine. but i have had a tranny go completely due to lack of fluid. third gear went away. so put some fluid in it and try it. because you were going up a hill or down is why it went away and were able to find it before you went cruisin down the street.

06-30-2002, 01:26 PM	#2
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	It sounds to me like the fuel pump turns on for two seconds when you turn the key on, but doesn't stay on. Try this: ground the fuel pump terminal in the self test connector under the hood (the place you go for codes). The fuel pump terminal, when looking at the plug so the two terminals are above the four terminals, is the farthest to the right, in the row of 4 terminals. place a jumper between that terminal and ground, and try to start it. Post your results. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

06-30-2002, 03:27 PM	#3
93GTDIN Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Live music capital of the world, TX Posts: 324	I tested that pin on the eec conector for resistance, and it read 1.6~1.7 k ohms. If it is a ground shouldn't it read open? I looked up that wire in the book and the book says that wire is the "carb coil" something or other. Are you sure this is the wire i'm supposed to ground? __________________ 96 Cobra - a bit too stock. 14.0 @ 101

06-30-2002, 05:20 PM	#5
93GTDIN Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Live music capital of the world, TX Posts: 324	(I dont know if my last post went or not, so if this is a duplicate post, ignore it) What really worries me is the fact that the car can't keep idle by itself (I can keep it alive by manipulating the throttle). Also, my vacuum gauge shows no vacuum at idle, but when I hit the gas, the vacuum actuall goes up (from 0 to 15 in hg). Maybe i'm confused, but shouldn't the vacuum go down when you hit the gas? Isnt this backwards? Do you think the fuel pump issue could be causing my idle/vacuum problems? __________________ 96 Cobra - a bit too stock. 14.0 @ 101

06-30-2002, 05:41 PM	#6
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Okay, I didn't see anywhere that you could keep it running by playing with the throttle. That means it has to be getting fuel. You said it never ran more than 2 seconds, which is all it takes to use the fuel the pump provides when it primes. You can't determine manifold vacuum if it won't run. Vacuum should drop when the throttle is opened. You sound like you have a mess there, and rather than jump from here to there and back again, let's do this one step at a time. Try what I suggested, and see if it makes a difference. If it doesn't, fuel delivery is not the problem. That leaves air, compression and ignition, so we'll get to it, but first things first. Try grounding the fuel pump (you will hear it come on and stay on after you turn the key on) and tell me what happens. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

06-30-2002, 05:48 PM	#7
93GTDIN Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Live music capital of the world, TX Posts: 324	well when I posted that first message i couldnt get it to stay alive. We played with the timing some and now I can. I'm not 100% sure the timing is right. I'll do what you said and see if it makes a difference. __________________ 96 Cobra - a bit too stock. 14.0 @ 101

06-30-2002, 12:57 PM	#1
93GTDIN Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Live music capital of the world, TX Posts: 324	engine fired for the first time.... almost This is in regards to the motor in my signature. Last night we put the finishing touches on the engine and fired it up for the first time. We had to play with the timing a bit to get it to fire at all, and when we did get it to fire, it died instantly. Some more timing tuning, and we could get it to fire more consistantly. Since then, the only thing we have been able to get it to do is this: When I turn the key, it fires, revs instantly to about 2000 rpm's (without my foot on the gas) and dies. It does this every time, and I havent been able to figure out what is wrong. The EEC Test shows code 96 which is "fuel pump circuitry". I did recently put in a new fuel pump, so I suppose its possible I screwed something up down there. My question is, is it possible for the computer to detect a problem from the fuel pump and then keep the engine from idling because it thinks the problem is serious? Any other ideas or tips are very much appreciated. dino __________________ 96 Cobra - a bit too stock. 14.0 @ 101

06-30-2002, 05:54 PM	#8
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	If you can get it to run for more than 2 seconds, it's not the fuel pump. Timing is simple. Line up the pointer and the TDC mark on the balancer, and set the distributor so that the rotor isjust before the #1 spark plug location on the distributor cap. Make sure you have the correct firing order: 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 and remember that the rotor turns counter-clockwise. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

06-30-2002, 07:09 PM	#9
93GTDIN Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Live music capital of the world, TX Posts: 324	adjusting the timing does not appear to make any difference in idle quality. Even if the timing was off, it should still have vacuum at idle, shouldn't it? I am off to the autozone to get a new IAB. __________________ 96 Cobra - a bit too stock. 14.0 @ 101

06-30-2002, 09:02 PM	#10
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	I suspect your valves are adjusted too tightly. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

06-30-2002, 09:26 PM	#11
93GTDIN Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Live music capital of the world, TX Posts: 324	Before I get into all that, could the EGR be causing this? I am not running the stock H pipe so I have the EGR blocked off both in the back of the heads and between the upper and lower intake. I am still running the vacuum line to the EGR. Is there a proper way to block it off? About the valves being adjusted to tightly, I turned the adjusting nut about 1/2 turn past zero lash and I had about 1.15 (I believe) inches between the top of the guide plate and the middle of the rocker roller which is I believe what trick flow specifies. thanks in advance __________________ 96 Cobra - a bit too stock. 14.0 @ 101

06-30-2002, 10:18 PM	#13
jimberg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 2,089	Chris, I think he means that he blocked the exhaust gas riser that's in the center of the intake. Did you hook up all the vacuum lines correctly? The FPR should be hooked directly to the intake. The EGR should be hooked up to a vacuum line controlled by a solenoid. Start the engine and see if you have vacuum at the EGR line. You shouldn't. Check for vacuum at the FPR line. You should have some. Have you set your idle on the throttle body? You need to loosen the idle adjustment screw until you can slide a .010" feeler gauge in between the screw and the plate. Once you confirm you have that .010" gap, give the screw 1 1/2 turns. Once that's set, make sure your TPS voltage is at about .95 volts when the throttle is closed. The IAB needs a little help from the throttle body, but it shouldn't be able to idle without the IAB connected. Also, do what Chris says!! The grounding of the fuel pump test lead, by the way, is what you should do when setting or testing fuel pressure. There is no reason for the engine to be running. (That's just a side note, it doesn't necessarily apply to you. ) __________________ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

07-01-2002, 02:48 PM	#14
tarmon8r Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: manassas, va Posts: 186	hey 93gt chris sounds like a really sharp tech guy. i would take his advice and use the KISS principle, which seems like he is doing Keep It Simple Stupid help him help you

07-01-2002, 07:42 PM	#15
93GTDIN Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Live music capital of the world, TX Posts: 324	Well I finally got it to idle. As it turns out, I broke my EGR valve because I had to bend it to use it with my kirban fuel pressure regulator. i was able to fix it, and now it idles like a champ. The idle is mean but completely tolerable. So then I put it in gear and tried to back out of the driveway. My driveway is a 40-45 degree slope up (when you are backing out). I made it about halfway up when the car started to roll forward. I gave it more gas and then the rpms jumped to 3000 and the car wasn't going anywhere. The wheels werent spinning either. When I put the car back in the garage I took out the transmission dipstick and smoke was coming out of the tube. It reeked of burning transmission fluid. Did I toast my torque converter? help. __________________ 96 Cobra - a bit too stock. 14.0 @ 101

07-01-2002, 07:50 PM	#16
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Did you remember to fill it first? __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

07-01-2002, 09:22 PM	#17
tarmon8r Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: manassas, va Posts: 186	well, just from personal experience, i have done stuff like that before. well nmy stuff lasted for quite some time so it didnt seem like it hurted to much. i did just add tranny fluid and it seem to be just fine. but i have had a tranny go completely due to lack of fluid. third gear went away. so put some fluid in it and try it. because you were going up a hill or down is why it went away and were able to find it before you went cruisin down the street.

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