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Old 02-19-2004, 05:51 PM   #1 (permalink)
Hozer 88GTConv
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Default Failed Intake gasket pics, need opinions..

Is this gasket bad enough to cause oil loss through the intake port on number 5 IYO?

I have been going through a quart every two weeks for longer than I care to admit. Thing is, never any smoke, ever. The plug on number 5 fouls after about a week or so and it passes compression checks, so my only guess was valve guide/seal, oil ring, or intake gasket.

Your opinions appreciated....nothing like working on the car at night with a road trip scheduled in 10 hours.
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1988 GT Convertible
331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta...
One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy

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Old 02-19-2004, 05:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
Hozer 88GTConv
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Default another pic

number 5 close up
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1988 GT Convertible
331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta...
One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy
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Old 02-19-2004, 07:14 PM   #3 (permalink)
QuantumMotorsports
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Man, that thing looks horrible! What did you do to make it look that bad? I have never seen a gasket looking so crappy. Get a new set, clean up the surface of the head really good with steal wool (cover the lifter valley with a big rag so you don't get any **** in your motor) put a new gasket on it (do both sides man!!) and drive it! Goodluck
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1984 LX Hatch
306 w/ TRW forged flat toppers, Comp Cams Magnum 292H, GT40P heads w/ 3 angle valve job, .550 lift springs, Angus Racing Roller Rockers, Weiand Stealth Intake, Holley 4150 650cfm carb, MAC 1 5/8 Long Tubes, Single Chamber Flowmasters, 91' T5 w/ Pro 5.0 shifter, Turbo Coupe 8.8 Rear w/ 3.55 gears, QA1 Motorsports tubular K member, no interior except steering wheel and seat.
Coming soon: 6 or 8 point cage, Fuel Cell, Weld Draglites
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Old 02-20-2004, 07:40 AM   #4 (permalink)
Hozer 88GTConv
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Talking Thanks...

You guys are so gentle and thoughtful. Quantum, you ever think of becoming a sensitivity trainer?

Bustin a guys balls over a gasket.

Jeez.

BTW, got any permatex ultra black? Or did your mom use it all?
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1988 GT Convertible
331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta...
One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy
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Old 02-20-2004, 02:10 PM   #5 (permalink)
QuantumMotorsports
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Don't ask stupid questions if you don't want to get your balls busted. Who in their right mind would try to use that gasket when a new set of intake gaskets costs at the very most 10 bucks. It doesn't take much more than common sense to realize that a gasket like that is not going to seal good. That would be like me posting pics of a set of tires that are worn through to the belts and asking if you guys thought they would be good for a few more passes. Sorry if you thought I was busting your balls man, but come on, did you honestly need someone to tell you that you needed a new gasket?
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1984 LX Hatch
306 w/ TRW forged flat toppers, Comp Cams Magnum 292H, GT40P heads w/ 3 angle valve job, .550 lift springs, Angus Racing Roller Rockers, Weiand Stealth Intake, Holley 4150 650cfm carb, MAC 1 5/8 Long Tubes, Single Chamber Flowmasters, 91' T5 w/ Pro 5.0 shifter, Turbo Coupe 8.8 Rear w/ 3.55 gears, QA1 Motorsports tubular K member, no interior except steering wheel and seat.
Coming soon: 6 or 8 point cage, Fuel Cell, Weld Draglites
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Old 02-20-2004, 02:57 PM   #6 (permalink)
Hozer 88GTConv
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Default Clarification

Actually, I was not asking whether or not to re-use those gaskets.
I guess I should clarify for the reading impaired.

I was asking if that poor seal around number 5 was enough to cause the oil consumption problem I was observing. Pulling oil vapor from the windage tray/lifter valley is a sketchy diagnosis.

If it wasn't, I was going to pull the cylinder head while I had the intake off. Otherwise, I was going to stop at the intake and try a new gasket and go with it.

Anyway, it is back together with some 1262's. The builder put 1250's on it originally and I think that was part of the problem.
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1988 GT Convertible
331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta...
One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy
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Old 02-20-2004, 04:52 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Clarification

Quote:
Originally posted by Hozer 88GTConv
I was asking if that poor seal around number 5 was enough to cause the oil consumption problem I was observing. Pulling oil vapor from the windage tray/lifter valley is a sketchy diagnosis.
My best guess, would be 'yes', it is enough to cause an oil consumption issue for two reasons 1) the gasket looks distorted enough that coupled with oil pressure from the lifter galley it would seep through; and 2) combine No. 1 with a good vacuum as the piston travel down the bore on the intake charge and I definitely think that's where your oil consumption is coming from.

How is it running now? Have you pulled the #5 plug to see if it's clean? Hopefully this was the issue and you've got it taken care of.

E
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Old 02-20-2004, 06:12 PM   #8 (permalink)
Hozer 88GTConv
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Default success

It looks like the intake gasket was it. I just ran it for a short drive, kept the RPM's below 4000 so the sealant could set up correctly.
Just got to retorque manifold bolts and change oil.
But car pulls a lot better, much smoother idle and acceleration, even in high gear under 2000 rpm where I try to get it to bog a little. Not that it bogged that much before.

Going to pull the plug to make sure when I change the oil in a minute. But it looks good. And I painted the intake manifold while I had it all apart, and got some new ARP SS bolts too.
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1988 GT Convertible
331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta...
One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy
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Old 02-21-2004, 09:08 AM   #9 (permalink)
302 LX Eric
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Default Re: success

Quote:
Originally posted by Hozer 88GTConv
And I painted the intake manifold while I had it all apart, and got some new ARP SS bolts too.
I've got those ARP SS bolts too, and they look great. You'll be pleased with how it looks.

Glad to hear everything worked out for you.

E
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Old 02-21-2004, 10:31 PM   #10 (permalink)
Hozer 88GTConv
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Default Well, unfortunately...

After a complete re-install of the intake manifold, there is still oil residue(a thin film) on number 5 plug.

I have to conclude that despite it passing dry and wet compression checks, something is wrong with the oil ring.

Still no smoke at all, this has been an *** kicker. Tomorrow everything comes off. Heads, ect. Time to find out what is up.
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1988 GT Convertible
331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta...
One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy
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Old 02-23-2004, 07:37 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Looks to me like you could use the Fel Pro "Blue Stripe" kit MS93334 - might take some minor trimming as it has dimensions of 1.15" x 1.90" but I see the 1250 had some area left at the bottom of the runner. The Blue Stripe intake gaskets may be more substantial than the ones pictured (Fel Pros?) as they have a metal core - those gaskets don't look like they had a core - did they?. I'm surprised you didn't pressurize your coolant system.
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Old 02-23-2004, 07:47 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Default 1262's

I actually put new 1262's in, that's what TFS calls for and they matched up well. Just had to do some minor trimming around the water ports. Permatex Ultra Black is also what they call for around the water ports and front and rear in lieu of the gasket.

The consensus is that the oil has to be coming from "up top" and that it isn't a bad ring. It is just the way oil is rather quickly evenly distributed over a brand new plug in just a few minutes of operation at idle, still no smoke ever.
Going to pull the valve cover, check guides and install new umbrella seals just to see if that is it.
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1988 GT Convertible
331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta...
One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy
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Old 02-24-2004, 07:46 PM   #13 (permalink)
vortechsaleen492
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it does look like it was sucking oil through the gasket, and i also gotta ask why you would reuse a gasket, they are cheap, NOT $10 like suggested but cheap enough not to reuse.



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Old 02-24-2004, 07:56 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default re-use of gaskets...

Once again, I never intended to re-use any gasket. I was merely trying to diagnose the problem.

I doubt anyone would go through the trouble to r and r a intake manifold, fuel rail and injectors only to try and use the same gasket. That's just dumb.

Unfortunately, replacement of the gasket dodn't solve my prob. Got new umbrella seals for the valve and will install them this weekend.
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1988 GT Convertible
331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta...
One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy
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Old 02-25-2004, 08:32 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Im running nearly the same set of heads as you are, the valve guides are a known trick flow problem esspecially in the early pedestal mount cylinder heads, just a thought check your guides out. it they are brass you are probably ok... as for the intake gaskets, i think the problem with the fel pro 1250 was the builder cut the gaskets to thin around the water jacket, i myself had the same problem. what intake are you running?? edelbrock suggests the 1250.. just dont mod the gasket just put it on...
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Old 02-25-2004, 08:53 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default 1262's

I installed new 1262's which is what TF recommends, even though I had to modify the water jacket.

I have talked to Trick Flow and they say that they doubt it is a guide problem because they rectified that issue a long time ago.
My casting number doesn't have that problem according to them.
Anyway, I am going to replace the seals with umbrella types Friday and see how that goes.

I think they are bronze guides, not brass.
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1988 GT Convertible
331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta...
One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy
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Old 03-03-2004, 06:24 PM   #17 (permalink)
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No where in your first post did you speak of re using the gaskets. Sounds to me like people need to read the posts a little better before getting all excited.
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Old 03-04-2004, 08:46 AM   #18 (permalink)
Hozer 88GTConv
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Angry latest...

After r/r of the intake manifold, reseating of valve seals, re-routing of the pcv, I am still fouling number 5 quickly with oil.
Dry compression check was within 10 pds of each cylinder on the driver side bank.
Still no smoke either.
Think now bad head gasket or bad oil control ring. Joy.
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1988 GT Convertible
331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta...
One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy
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Old 03-05-2004, 02:32 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Take your heads to a machine shop and have them checked out.

I would bet money that the problem is in the heads.
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Old 03-05-2004, 03:17 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Exhaust Valve seal

My heads are being dipped at a machine shop now. Everything is being prepped and the valves are getting lapped. Surprisingly, everything looked really good. The guides are within tolerances too.

After breakdown, the springs all passed pressure checks and the head studs look good too, except that one snapped off while I was taking off the passenger side head. Joy.

So, it looks like one crappy little exhaust valve seal was the culprit.

Now that I have the whole weekend to stare at my short block, wonder if I should just put a 331 kit in it.
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1988 GT Convertible
331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta...
One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy
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