GT40P's or Twisted Wedge?
 

How much better will the TFS heads be over GT40P's? I'm kinda being cheap and am leaning towards the P's cause they cost less, but if there is a big differencein power then I might get the TFS heads. What would be my best bet? Save on money or get more power, I don't know what to do? Please help!!!

-Craig

Don't waste your money on the GT40P's, Get the trickflow heads.

They are MUCH better and don't even compare to the GT40P's.

If you can not afford the trickflows, atleast get the gt40X heads.

The trickflows also have GREAT potential. You can have them ported to flow 320+ cfm!

what about the windsor jr's? those are really great heads too. And they compare in price for what they are.

check these sites out
 

Flowdata

GT-40p site

I bought the GT-40p heads and some good valve springs for $500.00, I'll spend the other $400 somewhere else. I'm sure if you're racing the TW heads are better, but for a daily driver hot rod the GT-40p heads have some merit.

I did the calculations and simply could not use all the airflow of the TW heads + I like the torque of a high velocity head. Also be careful of the lift limits of the TW heads with the 2.02" intake valves

Do your homework and buy the one that makes the most sense to you.

Plain and simple your 302 isn't gonna be able to use that 320+cfm of the ported TFS heads. For a nice dailey driver with GT-40P's are a good choice. Stage 1 GT-40P's with a Cobra or Explorer intake and a TFS #1 cam should be in the 320hp range. Bolt on the TFS heads to the same combo and you'll make 20 or maybe 30 more hp. Sure if you threw on a holley intake and a bigger cam it would make more hp....but that's more money.

Stage 1 GT-40P's heads with stainless valves and .570 springs are $630 from Central Coast Mustang. A Explorer intake is $275 and a TFS #1 cam is $139. So you've got heads/cam/intake for basicly what a just the TFS heads would cost you. Take the 500 bucks you saved....spray it and be faster.

I'm not gonna blow sunshine up your ***, the TFS are gonna be faster.....but they'll be 500 bucks(at least) more. To me, I would rather spend that money else where.

Don't forget about the headers he'd have to get, that's approx. another $250. He just bought his BBK shorties too, but if he goes with this set-up, I may buy them. On the other hand if he went with the Trickflow's, he'd need to get new roller rockers and he already has 1.6's, so he would need to get 1.7's?

How much more power on average will the Trick Flow heads make? I'm only doing this once and don't want to settle for the GT40P's if the TFS heads will make more power with my combo. Tireburner, I already have a cam and pretty good intake, so I think I'm all set in that aspect. I also like the fact that the alum will lighten things up a little bit. Does anyone have flow #'s on the 2 heads with roughly the same combo?

Dang headers!
 

I had to get GT-40p specific headers, but since I did not already have headers it was not an extra cost.

What would be the reasoning be to buy the GT40P's over the GT40X heads? The X's are aluminum, wiegh 25 lbs less each, don't require special headers, flow a lot better, and only cost about $100 more then the P's. if you are buget minded, then why not the GT40X heads??

Big Picture
 

Let's look at the complete picture here,both heads have something to offer first of all.

Look at your whole combo,try to match it up best you can,if your cam is not matched up to your heads what difference is it going to make what make head you have?

If you want to do it once and do it right and you are not on a budget get the TFS Twisted Wedge head,if you are on a budget get the GT40P head,the GT40P head is stout,NMRA Factory Stock cars prove that by running low 12's high 11's with trap speed between 109-114mph,so the GT40P has a lot to offer.

Do your homework,look at the big picture,and what you might want to do,3-4 years down the line.

I say it once I say it a million times "COMBINATION" is the key.

RPM 427, how much do you think the GT-40x heads cost? I see them advertised for around $1,000... the same as Trick Flows.

Tireburner, 320 HP out of ported Ps, Cobra Intake, and TFS #1 cam is a little optimistic. Closer to 290-300hp.

Highflow 5.0, If you only want to do it once and want max performace for your dollar, get the Trick Flows. If I were to do it again, I would spend a little more and not get the p-heads.

Re: Big Picture
 

You're right, but these guys are running a lot of compression to get these times. Probably more compression than anyone would want to run a daily driver.

These cars are also really stripped down too. Coming in around 2700 pounds doesn't hurt.

The GT40X heads cost $629 a pair from summit racing. I would link you but thier catalog system prevents a direct link, check it out: http://www.summitracing.com , enter this PN in the simmit part # search: FMS-M-6049-X303

Trickflows cost $1000, not GT-40's

I was mistaking thinking the P's were more expensive. But Summit sells them for $269 a pair.

My friend has the GT40X headed crate engine with the B-cam in his stang (345hp rating from Ford) and it pulls like it has 360 hp.

320hp from ported GT-40P's, a Cobra intake, a TFS #1 cam, and all the bolt ons(TB, Mass-air, full exhaust, exc.) isn't that optamistic.

Summit prices
 

Even though I should be working right now instead of reading post and magazines lol,I have a Summit catalog right here in front of me,GT40P heads sell for 549 for both heads,they advertise them for 269 I would be willing to say that is for one head.

A 600 dollar pair of aluminum heads would have everyone in an uproar,there would be no GT40X heads anywhere for that price,Summit and Jegs can be mis-leading in their price,so I would look at that twice.


NMRA Factory Stock has to start at 3100 pounds and have full interiors.

RPM 427, Take another look at that advertisement. See the last sentence. "Sold Individually" 629x2=1258:eek: For a minute there, I thought I was going to have to upgrade! 629 for a pair would be a steal.

Tireburner, I have everything you've mentioned and then some. I've dyno-tuned this thing and I know what it is and isn't capable of. Also, I've been to the track and 103.5 MPH traps don't equal 320hp. Don't get sucked into the idea that these are the greatest budget-heads on the market. If anything, I would consider them slightly better than ported-stock. However, better than stock is better than stock. You get what you pay for and believe me, the manufacturers know what they can get out of them.

Horsemen, thanks for the weight info. I was just assuming they gutted their rides. Still, I'd like to get my car down to 3100 pounds.

O, ok sorry

Then what is the problem! Get the trickflows, why even consider the gt40's??

I have to disagree....the gt40p's with will run very good on a mild street car. In fact that's the combo i'm planning on running(once i get the cash together). If you mill the heads they will raise the compression too which = more power.
Check out some of the times/hp people are getting out of them:

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthr...hreadid=113750

Oh and if you have longtubes they will work without special headers....

You can get the GT40P from Mustangs Unlimited for $229 each.

If you want to do i once and arn't on a budget why don't you get AFR 185's? They outflow the Twisted Wedge heads and will also work good if you eventually want to put a supercharger on your engine. My .02


Steven

For a mild combo they are very solid. There's no debating it. However, just about every other head will outperform it out of the box.

I highly recommend milling these before installing them.

Those guys on the Corral running low 12s are not the norm.

I will also have to vote for the trick flow heads. Build quality is very high. A big plus for me is the weight. You'll never want to put an iron head on your 5.0 again. Of course I have a convertible and all the weight I can save helps.

I hit the 500 mile break in point for my motor last night, so I punched it for the first time, and i'll be damned if my automatic convertible didn't move like a bat out of hell.

get the tfs tw.

man i'll tell you right now you aint gonna touch a pair of old GT40 aluminum heads for $629 let alone a set of GT40X's so im not sure WHERE in summit you saw that? maybe thats the price for a SINGLE head but no way is that the price for a pair, besides the fact the trickflows will make more HP and TQ than ANY GT40 head. i say go for the trick flows:D

$629 individually
 

If you pull that part number that's listed, it's for a single GT-40X head, not a pair.

Okay #1 The Street Warrior or Trophy Stock or whatever the heck they want to call it now cars are running low low 11's at 120mph on stock GT-40P heads at full weight, basically. Yes they're running high compression, and they are limited in choice of cams ect. Those cars are every bit capable of dynoing at 340rwhp. That's over 400hp at the crank. Cams that aren't crazy, and stock GT-40P's with a lot of compression. Take the compression away to milled GT-40P's and they might give up 40hp or so.

TFS TW heads are great. They flow 255cfm, not 320cfm. Fully ported TFS TW's might get 280-290cfm. I can't ever see them hitting 320cfm+. That's maybe where the AFR 205 hangs out. The aluminum head will save you 25lbs. Whoopee doo. That's 0.0025 in the quarter. If you want to be really optimisic, 1/2 a tenth. They also require the use of an improved radiator if you won't want overheating problems.

The GT-40P heads are high velocity, good torque heads which offer significantly more power than stock E7TE's. The crate engine with the B303 or E303 cam is rated at 320hp. So no. A stage 1 GT-40P setup with the extra's is not optimistic at 320hp. Are low 12's with these heads realistic? In a full weight car and normal suspension mods, no. If you lose some weight and get some real good suspension and you have the rest of the combo? Yes.

If you have a car that's dynoing 290hp (240rwhp) with GT-40P's and all the rest with a 103.5 trap, it's broken. That's all there is to it. A stock fox with a killer driver can trap 100mph. So unless you feel like telling me all the mods you made were good for 35hp, I'd have to say something's wrong.

As for the doing things once, that's a great idea. Figure out what you want the car to do, and list the rest of the combo so we can all quit playing guessing games, and pick the best head for you of the two.

Example. You have a GT-40 Intake and a .500 lift 220 duration cam. The GT-40Ps are the better choice.

Example. You have the TFS Street heat and a .540 lift cam with 225 duration. The TFS TW's are the much better choice.

Since he already has the TFS intake, getting the TFS heads would be a much better match since they are nearly port matched from the factory. I'd talk to TFS and ask them which cam they recommend for their intake and heads. If emissions are an issue, I'd probably stick with the E303.

My car is pretty much full weight, and full accessory. I know there is a 11 in it on the right day w/ some more tuneing.

Skyler

OK I spent the day on the phone talking with tech's of all sorts. One in particular was the Ford racing tech line. He was very helpful. He suggested against both the Trick flow and GT40P heads. He said the 2.02 intake valves on the TFS heads would be too much, and not make enough low end power where I want it, and to go no bigger then 1.94 intake valves. He also said the GT40P's wouldn't be enough for my combo, and I could get more out of a better head. He said the GT40X or the edelbrock performer head would probably be my best bet. They would make good lower rpm power then the TFS, I am able use my pedestal Mt roller rockers and I don't need to get new headers. He also suggested that I swap my 70 mm TB out for a 65 mm unit, and to step up to 4.10 gears. He was very detailed in his explanations and what he said seemed to make a lot of sense.

the tech is wrong.

Not to be brutal, but Ford Tech's don't know their head from their ***, and usually when I see people say they talked to a Ford tech they have all the wrong answers. A guy who has a basic understanding of how engines work, and then applies all his theory's to products with no knowledge. They dianosed my friend's backfire as a "loud miss" not a backfire, and it was caused by his spark plug wires, not his fuel injectors. RIIIGGGHHTT.

If you have the TFS intake, the TFS TW heads are better. They won't kill your low end because they don't have primaries that are oversized, and they have excellent flow all around. Port velocity isn't bad with them at all. Ask a lot of people making max power at around 5200-5400rpm. As far as the cam, TFS #1 is better than the E303 in my opinion. With all the problems people have regarding idle surge, and the seemingly great performance of the #1, and cheaper price, I'd probably go with it.

You can go with Edelbrock if you want to. They're good heads, and built with quality. They're no match for the TFS TW heads out of the box for power production or flow, though. They're also more expensive than the TFS heads. It's not hard to find TFS TW heads under $1000. The difference in price between the TFS heads and the Edelbrock will cover rockers. Not to mention you can still sell your old rockers. You'll also need to change pushrods with the TFS TW's.

It's up to you, obviously, but I know I wouldn't choose the Edelbrock over the TFS, and I wouldn't get a set of GT-40x period.

First off, I hope from now on people will read the entire thread before posting a reply.

--Unit 5302: I know the TFS heads flow 255 stock, BUT you can send them out to get ported to 320+ cfm intake, 235+ ex.
(http://www.bennettracing.com/products/tfstwisted.html)

That is a good thing becuase you can stick with the stock casting now, then if you wanted to build a 351,408, or hi reving 302.347
you can send them out to be ported for $1200 instead of spending $3500 on a head that is comparable.

And for the wieght thing - You will drop 25 lbs PER head. Thats 50 lbs removed that was once hanging off the front of your stang. Not only will it help in acceleration (not much, but every .05 counts), it will aid in wieght transfer which is more important.

I'm not trying to be a smart ***, but its a pet peeve of mine when people don't do thier homework first.

More Light
 

Okay for more light on the subject here goes.

HiFlo of course the guy is going to tell you to buy Ford parts,he is a Ford tech no brainer there,it is part of his commission.

TFS Twisted Wedge too big??? Tell the other 74,000 customers that,that have bought them,TFS Twisted Wedge is not a big head,TFS Twisted Wedge R,AFR 205,Victor Jr,those are big heads.

Once again depends on your combo HiFlo,I would talk to some engine builders if it was me,Keith Craft,Fox Lake,Anderson Ford Motorsport,Ed Curtis at FlowTech Induction,talk to the guys with the rep and the numbers and results to back it up.

If it was me I would write out a serious plan with pro's/con/s on it and go from there,a plan makes it so much less of headache,and it gives you options to use.

2 last things and I am getting off my soapbox,do not get caught up in this "Bigger is Better" theme that get's a lot of people in trouble,do your homework,talk to the real engine builders,and try to get matched up parts.For example why concern yourself with a 300cfm head at .600 lift when your cam only goes to 490-520? Get the meaning?

And last Skyman the way your car leaves,I would say it definitely has 11 sec potential,skinny wheels up front,to get some un-sprung weight will help it transfer,but looking at your driving style you know what you are doing,nice car by the way,you get the leak fixed?

These guys couldn't possibly work on commission since they don't really sell anything. They're actually pretty cool about answering questions. I spoke to one before doing my project and he was really helpful with all of my stupid questions.

Stand corrected
 

Very true Jim,but I am sure he is going to highly recommend Ford parts over anything else.

I always wonder whatever happened to the J302 head,and K302 head? Those were good heads made by Ford Motorsport the GT40 head does not even compare to a J302 head.

HiFlo,just make sure you get a good combo,make sure the heads are matched to the cam is what is most important.

Oh you mean like the $600 pair of GT-40x aluminums? Is that what's called doing your homework? Those 320cfm+ heads are not just ported. They have CNC work, custom valves, and the whole works thrown at them. That is not a "port" job. The stage 3 port is gonna get you about 290-300cfm intake, and 220-230cfm exhaust.

I'm sure you've done a lot of research on the GT-40x heads? Maybe you notice an extreme deficiency in flow somewhere? Called the exhaust side with less than 70% of intake flow? Not only that, but they don't flow much more than a stage 1 GT-40P head intake wise, and less than the stage 1 GT-40P head on exhaust. We're talking 10cfm more intake, and about 10cfm less exhaust. For only $600 more.

My only experience with Ford tech people is they don't know their products real well.

Umm...show me where I can buy TURBO SWIRL ALUMINUM HEADS for that price, and I'll order tonight. :D I denoted the heads in CAPS so you could be sure you were talking about the correct heads...cheapest I've seen them around is ~$1050. Looks like someone misread the pricing in the Scummit catalog ;)

The iron-headed gt-40 crate 302 was rated at 280hp.

The aluminum-headed gt-40 crate 302 was rated at 320hp.

That is directly from Ford SVO. Get it right. I've mentioned it to you before.

My car is not "broken" and I'm certainly not a killer driver..... but I can hold my own. If you knew anything about racing at the track other than what you read on the internet you'd know that 103.5 trap is about right for 290 hp. Since you like to read so much on the net about racing take a look at the graph on the attached link. A 3200lb car needs 290hp to hit 105mph trap speeds. Looks about right to me considering my car weighs in around 3250 with me in it and I was shifting with the stock tach (we all know how accurate they are).

http://www.jason.fletcher.net/tech/combos/pwrcombo.htm

Quit reading the magazines articles and internet stories about all of these fantastic times being achieved by these killer drivers. Spend some time at the track and talk with people there about the results they're acheiving with their combos. The track is the real-world and you have yet to experience it.

89 Cobra LX He's talking about the GT-40P crate motor from Central Coast Mustang....It is rated at 320hp.

As for the track times, I saw a car with ported GT-40P's, a Cobra, a cam(not sure what type), and the bolt ons pull a 12.6 a few weeks ago.

I know what CCM's add claims. Adds for underdrive pulleys claim an increase of 15-20hp.:rolleyes: Don't believe what the manufacturers claim. They're after your dollar. How would CCM be able to find 40 hp over Ford SVO with virtually the exact same parts (if it seems to good to be true it probably is)?

I'm curious what the MPH was for for the guy you saw run that 12.6. I'd love to be in the 12s, but without slicks I'm stuck in the 13s. Damn 2.1 to 2.2 60 foots are killing me.

Hey Eric how about 2.6 to2.860 foot times at 108 an still not hitting that Damn 12. I,m sorry I could not talk longer when you called I had some one from work there asking me ?s. my best time was 13.25@108.1Mph I am going to buy some cheep rims and some slicks!!

Damn, Geno, those are some brutal 60s. Weren't you getting better 60s with the older tires?

Let me know when you get those slicks. I may need to "rent" them from you!

Yes I was hooking better with the old tires but I was not shooting a 100 shot before!! I ran 3 passes on just motor and got 2.160 foot times with no spinning this was done with a N2o tune on the motor 9* timing and high Fp I think that if I had it tuned like I did last time I could have hit a 2.0 I also think that if I had hooked up on the juice I would have hit a 12 in the 109-110 Mph range. with slicks I bet its a 12.5 car

I was expecting 12.5s this time! At least you've got the MPH.

What were you're times and MPH on all motor?

I hit two 13.7s at 103.5 and102.6and one13.8 at 101.5 this was with a rich tune and 9* timing if I had A timing light I know I could have hit 13.5 @104.:rolleyes:

a buddy of mine has a 347 and has the tfs heads and with a port job got 375cfm int. and 325 ex. (the porter wants them back to mount on his wall there the best heads he has ever done) And ther not the new tfs heads there the old 5-7 years old the first ones with out the high ex port. no b.s. If its all out power than id say tfs or afr, if its daily driven with some racing get the gt40s or jr. they have way better com.chambers over stock.

he got that that out of JUST porting the heads?:confused: There wasn't any other work done to them?:confused: Your gonna sit there and tell me he pick up 120cfm with JUST a port job?:confused:


This good 'ole boy ain't buyin that till I see proof.

I'm with Josh..those heads take alot of porting and polishing to get them to flow that kind of number. I'm not gonna call BS but the flag is ready to wave any minute :cool:

89 Cobra LX I'm going to do this ONE more time. People wonder why I'm hardly ever on this site anymore? You can't figure out how to get your engine to run worth a damn so nobody can have a good running engine combo. I see.

Let's get things straight. In that discussion we were talking about the GT-40 irons.

The GT-40 iron "Cobra" heads are NOT the GT-40P heads. The bone stock Cobra's dyno about 220rwhp, which is 260hp. A bolt on Cobra with a good computer will make better than 300hp with inferior heads. Why do you think the GT-40P combo is weaker than the GT-40 iron combo?

Central coast rates their GT-40P combo at 320hp. The Stage 2 GT-40P combo from XFM is rated at 325+hp.

http://members9.clubphoto.com/bob425635/guest-1.phtml

www.centralcoastmustang.com

I don't have time to search the web all day for you. There are a couple links, and a couple references. Like I stated before, if you can't get 320hp out of a well setup GT-40P combo, you need sombody else to put together an engine for you. The race guys are trapping 120mph N/A on bone stock GT-40P castings. They are dynoing over 340rwhp. A quick mill of the heads will get you 10.0:1 compression, and their greater compression isn't giving them 100hp.

89 Cobra LX, your only trapping 103!?!?!??!

Where did you get your GT-40P's? Do they still have the stock valve train?