Yet another "How much HP am I looking at" thread

[2FastLX]

At the moment, I have a full exhaust system consisting of MAC long tubes, MAC Pro Chamber crossover and MAC cat-back. I have a GT-40 intake begging to be installed and am porting some stock heads for the time being. The heads have been deck milled .030.

When I install all of these components I plan to throw in an F303 cam, 1.6 roller rockers, 70mm MAC TB, 73mm C&L meter, 24lb injectors, and a 190lph fuel pump.

What kinda power am I looking at here at the wheels? And after I install all of that would it be a good time for a chip? I'd like to be running 12's or better soon and am hoping this will get me there easy enough. Thanks.

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[1989GT]

Depending on the port job you should be in 12's. I would go with a 65mm tb, you'll only lose with the 70.

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89GT,T-5Z, D.S.S. 306 shortblock w\main support, B-303 cam, Cobra intake, GT40P heads, 1.72rr, MAC "P" headers, MAC off-road H-Pipe, MAC true-fit w\tips, 373's...and the list goes on!
Throttle Junkie Powered by Ford!
12.824 @ 107.05 MPH
PVT Blankenship leaving for BCT 14MAR01
MOS 67 Romeo

[2FastLX]

I was kinda thinking the same thing myself. I was going to go with the MAC because I can get one really cheap and I think they only make a 70mm. I may opt for an Accufab 65mm, but money is going to be pretty tight as it is to be able to get all this done before April 14th. We're renting a drag strip for the day and I was wanting to get her all done by then so I could whip all over a few guys that stomped me last time

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[WADS56]

You will be in the 12's if you get traction. I ran the same combo before, but I had the windsor jr's from world castings. I put the heads on out of the box with no port work, so with the work you did on your stockers they should be close. I used the 70mm from Accufab, and a C+L 73mm and it pulled hard to the rev limiter. If you can get a deal from Mac on a 70mm I would do it, A 70mm will not hurt that much or at all.
About the chip... If you don't have any driveability problems and it is NA it is almost a waste of money to get a custom one burned. But if it starts hunting for a idle or starts running rich when ever it wants to it is well worth the money to get one burned.
With my f303 and the C+l It would run ok sometimes, but the rest of the time it would buck and search for a idle, and sometimes die. The chip fixed it and ran like it came off the showroom floor.
If you run into some money get the stage 1 kit from NOS. It woke the car up big time and I think it ran like a 12.4


See you in April,
Wade

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Blown 347 W/Canfield heads, solid roller cam, track times this spring mid 10's or bust

93lx 5.0 daily driver

[2FastLX]

Sounds cool. If you remember I was the guy out there smoking my passenger tire. I should be spending my money on a set of 3.73's and new clutch packs, but that is next I guess. I may just skip the centerforce clutch I was thinking about and get that done.

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[2FastLX]

Anyone have any guesses as to the number of ponies at my rear wheels with this combo?

[SaleenGTS]

I'd say anywhere from 240-260 rwhp....good for a 104-105 mph, and that is a good hi 12 speed

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Dustin
1990 Saleen GTSport #14
TFS Street Heat Upper & Lower,TFS TW heads,Phenolic Spacer, E303 Cam,1.6 RR,BBK 70mm TB,FMS 70mm MAF,MAC 1 5/8" Equals,Dynomax 2 1/2" cat back,Bassani 2 1/2" X-Pipe,MSD 6AL Ignition, Home made Ram Air, Racecraft Suspension

60ft: 2.158
660ft: 8.271 @ 90.43
¼ mi: 12.791@ 111.04

SOLD!!!!

[Killercanary]

Sorry but I have to disagree guys. I know you'll be in the mid to low 13's, but I'll be really surprised if you get into the 12's with that combo. If you do- well hey, more power to you. I'm just trying to give you my honest opinion from my own experiences at the track. For instance, I know a guy with an 89GT with trick flow intake, trick flow cam, 70mm t-body, full exhaust, 3.73 gears, drag radials and tremec tranny- he powershifts his way to 13.5's at 100mph. Unless the port job is really good, I just don't see you having enough HP to get the job done. I'd imagine you'd have around 240-245rwhp. I also think the F cam is overkill for a set of ported stock heads. Again this is just my opinion, I may be wrong.

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95 GT convt' 5 speed, 3.73's,FMS HD clutch, Pro 5.0 shifter, ASP alum. underdrive pulleys, Bassani offroad X pipe, 2 chmbr flowmasters, K&N w/o silencer, edelbrock performer intake, FRPP 65mm T-body, FRPP shorty headers, FRPP aluminum driveshaft.Hooker 4pt chrome car bar, Xenon/Wings West ground effects, custom interior
Best ET: 13.83
Best MPH: 98.55mph with Best 60': 1.91 on Nitto DR's
Homepage: <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/killercanary" TARGET=_blank>http://www.angelfire.

[Unit 5302]

I'd be really suprised if you don't push more like 310hp at the wheels.

The stock heads, even ported, will hold you back, but the rest of your combo looks pretty aggressive. The F-cam really needs some good heads to shine, but ported stockers will do the trick for budget reasons.

If you were to have an E or B cam I'd expect you to make around 350 at the flywheel.

I'm sorry Killercanary but if your friend is powershifting his way to 13.5's with that combo, something is seriously screwed up. I notice you didn't put anything down about him having head mods. If he doesn't have any mods to the heads, like porting at all, he's got way to much on the intake side of things. I'd expect an '89GT with freebies and gears to be in the high 13's with nothing else. With intake and a cam of that type, assuming he's got some form of headwork so it's not mismatched badly, he should be in the high 12's at least with those mods.

[2FastLX]

I think I'll be pushing the 12 second envelope with these mods, if not I hope to be close. A friend has the exact same setup except for the intake and heads and he's running mid to low 12's. He does have aftermarket heads though, so I might just make low 13 second times. That won't make me mad though.

The heads will be my next purchase after these mods so it's just a temporary fix using the stock offerings. I was considering the AFR 165's but a friend told me the Trick Flows would be a better choice. What do you guys think?

When I do get new heads I'll prolly be switching to a 347 Stroker as well and maybe stepping up the exhaust to a 1 3/4" header to a 3" exhaust system. But it will be awhile before that is done.

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[SaleenGTS]

Unit....can I have some of that weed you are smoking?? It sounds like good stuff..lol j/k

I don't see getting anywhere near 310 rwhp, car made 284 rwhp before switching computers, MAF, and a tune. My dad's friend has a 89 with a Fcam,ported GT-40 y's, GT40 Intake, and the rest of the usual. He dynoed only 255 rwhp. 310 rwhp is mid to low 12 power, and I don't see it, sorry guys.

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Dustin
1990 Saleen GTSport #14
TFS Street Heat Upper & Lower,TFS TW heads,Phenolic Spacer, E303 Cam,1.6 RR,BBK 70mm TB,FMS 70mm MAF,MAC 1 5/8" Equals,Dynomax 2 1/2" cat back,Bassani 2 1/2" X-Pipe,MSD 6AL Ignition, Home made Ram Air, Racecraft Suspension

60ft: 2.158
660ft: 8.271 @ 90.43
¼ mi: 12.791@ 111.04

SOLD!!!!

[Unit 5302]

Alright SaleenGTS and Killercanary.

What is so different about 2FastLX's setup and yours?

Well here's what I'm seeing. 2Fast has a more aggressive cam, better exhaust, more compression, ported heads (even stockers can make good power when ported), and a solid intake. It's true the F-303 is big for stock heads, it's made to have more flow, but if the heads are ported well, it should work okay.

Plus his car is lighter. 12's are totally possible.

If you don't see any power in his combo, I guess you guys can't make it out of the mid low 13's so your timeslip is wrong, SaleenGTS.

I have a difficult time believing a Fcam, with ported GT-40 heads, a GT-40 intake and the rest of the usuals would show less than 300hp at the flywheel. That's totally ****** up. If that were the case, you'd never see a N/A 302 in the low 12's.

A GT-40 aluminum set, with a GT-40 intake, and an E cam with the usuals should be damn close to 340hp at the flywheel.

[This message has been edited by Unit 5302 (edited 02-09-2001).]

[SaleenGTS]

Unit-I am not saying that his combo can't make good power, just not 300+ rwhp. It took me for ever to get my highest rwhp(switching cams,computers,MAF,pullies)My heads were also blended, and had a VJ, so no I don't see him making that power. I have the facts on a set of Fully ported E7 heads by HP I think that flowed a max of 212 cfm @550. That isn't near enough to get 300+ rwhp. MM&FF also did a dyno on the Stage 2 combo from Excessive(Stage 2 Holley Heads, .540 cam, and Stage 2 Cobra Intake with a 75 mm MAF, and a 65 mm TB)Not saying that MM&FF is the bible, but they know a little about what they are doing. They maxed at 360 bhp, when broken down to rwhp at roughly 17% loss would be about 300 rwhp, and there is no way IMHO a set of fully ported E7's, and a GT-40 Intake with a .512" cam can make that hp. The heads wouldn't ever see the peak flow, and the porting would only lower the lower flow numbers.

I am not trying to start anything, I have just been through more than my fair share of mixing and matching combos, and have been in his shoes before.

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Dustin
1990 Saleen GTSport #14
TFS Street Heat Upper & Lower,TFS TW heads,Phenolic Spacer, E303 Cam,1.6 RR,BBK 70mm TB,FMS 70mm MAF,MAC 1 5/8" Equals,Dynomax 2 1/2" cat back,Bassani 2 1/2" X-Pipe,MSD 6AL Ignition, Home made Ram Air, Racecraft Suspension

60ft: 2.158
660ft: 8.271 @ 90.43
¼ mi: 12.791@ 111.04

SOLD!!!!

[Killercanary]

SaleenGTS- I'm with you all the way.
UNIT- Unless 2fastLX is having a professional full port done, complete with bigger valves- it is impossible. I'm not a new-be to mustangs. I speak from my own experiences with my car, my dad's 91GT, my cousin's 94GT, and a host of others. I also go to the track every thursday for test and tune- where better to see what works and what doesn't. Like I said above, if he can achieve this, more power to him, but I don't see it. 310rwhp???- absolutely no way. Most 5.0's with aluminum after market heads, intake, cam, and the everything else usually have around 255-270rwhp without a lot of tuning, now I'm saying most but it all depends on which parts, if they are properly matched, etc.
I'll be the first to agree that there lies power in stock heads, at least more than most believe. Look at me, I went from 15.2's at 90mph to 13.8's at 98, and I have not touched the heads, cam, RR's, MAF, and injectors.
Let's take my dad's 91GT for example- bone stock it ran a 14.60 at 94mph. With 3.55's, x pipe, borla mufflers, pulleys, cold air induction, subframe connectors, and Mickey Thompson Sportman Pro tires he runs 13.7's at 97.9mph, but that's with 1.89 60's. So I do agree that an 89GT with these types of mods can run in the 13's, but not without a really good driver and a good set of tires. His car is also pretty light, it weighs 3200lbs without him.
I'm not here to argue, like I said before, this is just my opinion, but I feel if people are going to express their opinion they should have something concrete to base their opinion on. There are tons of stangs at Keystone (my home track), anyone that's ever been there can attest to this, and there are quite a few with heads, cam, intake, etc; but 90% of them are still just 13 second cars, it is very seldom that I see a 12 second pass up there. If 2fastlx can get his car and him to weigh around 3100 together, he uses a good traction tire, and drives the heck out of it, he'll be in the low low 13's, and on a cold night at a low elevation track- it may very well be possible for him to break into the 12's, but I don't think it will be on a consistent basis if he does.
BTW-My buddy that runs 13.5's does in fact have unported E7TE's, and yes there may be a big mismatch, ie. too much cam, ports are not matched creating turbulent flow, etc... This was just an example for reference, nothing more. It's too hard to compare apples for apples in this hobby, everyone knows that there are just too many variables at stake.

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95 GT convt' 5 speed, 3.73's,FMS HD clutch, Pro 5.0 shifter, ASP alum. underdrive pulleys, Bassani offroad X pipe, 2 chmbr flowmasters, K&N w/o silencer, edelbrock performer intake, FRPP 65mm T-body, FRPP shorty headers, FRPP aluminum driveshaft.Hooker 4pt chrome car bar, Xenon/Wings West ground effects, custom interior
Best ET: 13.83
Best MPH: 98.55mph with Best 60': 1.91 on Nitto DR's
Homepage: <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/killercanary" TARGET=_blank>http://www.angelfire.

[Killercanary]

2FASTLX wrote:
"The heads will be my next purchase after these mods so it's just a temporary fix using the stock offerings. I was considering the AFR 165's but a friend told me the Trick Flows would be a better choice. What do you guys think?

When I do get new heads I'll prolly be switching to a 347 Stroker as well and maybe stepping up the exhaust to a 1 3/4" header to a 3" exhaust system. But it will be awhile before that is done."

Trick flow heads can and do make good power, plus you can run the 2.02" intake valve without having to go through piston notching. On the other hand, trick flows had a good bit of problem a few years back with their valve guides- some would drop a valve right into the combustion chamber. I have heard a few explanations for this, but most had to do with the angle of the the valve that is necessary to run the 2.02 valve without problems. Now trick flow claims to have taken care of this problem, but I heard too many horror stories to put a set on my car, and my cousin just spoke with Mr. Bell (of Kenne Belle SC's) and they have done a few test on the new trickflows and he stated that they too show signs of valve guide wear after a couple thousnad miles.
The AFR heads are all the rage right now, and so far they are making AWESOME power! I myself have been looking into buying a set of heads for my stang for about 2 years now. I was set on a set of edelbrock's becuase of their great quality, impressive flow, and they are factory port matched to my intake, but after the AFR head came out, I changed my mind. I ordered a set of 165/58cc ones last week and should have them shortly. I went with the 58cc for a little more compression, and I was going to have them milled until I looked into the probles associated with it. If you mill the heads, you must also mill the intake surface that meets with the head otherwise the angles will be off and you will have a leak, also, when you will the heads you may very well end up having problems getting your accessories to line back up with the holes that are driled into the heads since the heads will sit lower now.
If you are in fact going to add a 347 stroker to your car, the AFR 185 may be better for you. On a 302 they are a bit big on the intake side in terms of the port which will decrease velocity, but on a 347/351 and up the 185 will really feed the beast better. This is something you may want to consider.



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95 GT convt' 5 speed, 3.73's,FMS HD clutch, Pro 5.0 shifter, ASP alum. underdrive pulleys, Bassani offroad X pipe, 2 chmbr flowmasters, K&N w/o silencer, edelbrock performer intake, FRPP 65mm T-body, FRPP shorty headers, FRPP aluminum driveshaft.Hooker 4pt chrome car bar, Xenon/Wings West ground effects, custom interior
Best ET: 13.83
Best MPH: 98.55mph with Best 60': 1.91 on Nitto DR's
Homepage: <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/killercanary" TARGET=_blank>http://www.angelfire.

[Super9089]

I found my best time slip today.It was 13.175 @ 101.85 w 1.797 60ft.Honestly this engine has never been opened with stock intake,cam & mass air. I have no computer chip or nos.This car never fails to surprise me.
I think tires,stage & launch are important. I love the MT ET Streets. I pull into the water ,light spin in first just to get em wet, pull forward & heat em in second. then just barely tickle the stage beam this will give you a little extra run.Then when the green bulb pops drive it like you hate it.

A lot of these combos listed have 12 second potential.

I noticed a few of you are from PA. Love to get Down there some time its only about 5hrs.

[2FastLX]

That may be something to consider on the 185's killercanary. Thanks for the insight. I probably won't see 12's with my setup but I can drive this beast if I get traction. I was pulling really good reaction times by the end of the day (I know this doesn't affect ET, but it does reflect driving ability) and shifting at the optimum rpm every time. I have a friend who everyone says is a damn good driver and I put 2 tenths on him after he made 3 runs with my car so I know I'm driving as good as most people if not better.

Also, I forgot to mention, I'll be running a set of 3.73 gears and maybe some underdrive pullies. I am going to try to get some Nitto's as well. My A/C and smog pump will not be in the works as they are soon to be removed from the engine compartment. The back seat will be gone along with the carpet and all unnecessary weight will be removed. The battery may be in the trunk by then but I'm not sure yet if money will permit. Any other suggestions to make it faster and cost nothing?

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[Killercanary]

Underdrive pulleys are a good idea in my book, but since you have a fox body with a 85amp alternator, charging could be a problem, but my dad has had no problems with his. I went from a 14.96 at 91 to a 14.6 at 94 with just pulleys, though my dad only saw about .12 of a second and 1.5mph.
If you put the battery in the trunk and plan to run at the track, you must include a shut off switch that is accessible from the rear of the car on the outside- just keep this in mind. Have you bumped your timing? There a bunch of little things I can tell you, but my batteries are about dead in my laptop so I'll post them later.

[2FastLX]

I upgraded to the 130 amp a couple months ago so that won't be a problem.

Timing is at 14 degrees maybe 15 because we couldn't see very well. But it is where it seems to run the best anyway.

You can see all the mods I have here... http://members.mustangworks.com/axemanzz/index.htm

I still have to update that page to reflect my new user name so yeah that's me =P

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[Skyman]

I have to say there is no way to see 310rwhp hp on stock heads that arent fully race ported with high compression. Maybe you ment to put fwhp.

Theres hethj on here he has GT40's and all the rest of the boltons and he dyno tuned it to 262rwhp. I think my car, juding by its ET, and weight is probably around 280rwhp. Now I know theres probably some more in it, but 310rwhp on stock heads no.

12sec, thats a different story. That is possible w/ a good suspension and slicks I believe. Because it wont take 300+ rwhp to do that.

Look at Mustang92, he just went 12.99@104mph with 244rwhp in a heavier car on slicks.

Skyler

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-1989 Saleen Mustang #406-
TFS Heads, Edelbrock intake, E-303, 3.73's, 1 5/8 shortys, Offroad-H, 2chamber flows, 36psi FPR, 15degrees timing, 70mm tb, 73mm maf, 24lb inj, Crank pulley, MSD6A, Alum driveshaft, ripper shifter, and turndowns.
13.2@106mph

Daily Driver
STOCK-1994 Integra LS
15.48@91mph