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How hot can aluminum heads get before they warp?
Since I've been having cooling problems lately I thought I should ask the question. My engine was running at over 230 degrees yesterday for fewer than 5 minutes and I am concerned for the obvious reasons. The engine seems to run cooler w/out the thermostat. What are the drawbacks of removing the thermo. for good?
------------------ Finally DONE!! 93 GT, 393 stroker w/ Edlebrock Performer heads and EFI, 30lb injectors, Dynamic Roller Mite C4, 8 pt cage, Sothside Machine bars & Sub-frames, 3.73's, '69 351W block w/SCAT crank. |
Focus on how cool your car can run, not how hot you can get it. Just kidding, don't know any real numbers, but if it got that hot it would probably toast the motor any way.
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Most aftermarket aluminum heads have a pretty beefy deck on them so I would venture to say at the least they are no worse than a set of light weight factory castings and are probably better that the factory iron castings.
Have you retorqued the heads yet? After a pretty good thermal cycle like that, you might want to check the cylinder head torque on a fresh build-up? I've been told that checking torque twice should be the the bare minimum (after warming up and letting cool down) and the more the better (screw ultimate reliability I say, go for 3 times successively and maybe a 4th time at some point down the week http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/biggrin.gif), losing the clamping load and letting go a gasket will warp things in a jiffy possibly leading one to think that the aluminum cylinder heads warped easily. As for 230 degrees? the good ol' IC engine produces power right on up to 220 degrees of coolant temp after that it starts to have problems (this assuming detonation from other problems doesn't surface first). although that might be the practical limit for an all cast iron engine with a combustion chamber from about 20 years ago (all kidding aside) Its odd that your cooling system works better without the thermostat installed, typically without the stat installed coolant circulates to quick and does not adequately absorb enough heat (or transfer out) through the cooling system typically resulting in a overheating problem. Break down your cooling system and lets see whats going on? |
The motor ain't toasted. It started first turn this afternoon and I got 60 psi of pressure when I gave it gas. The fuel return line was leaking a little so I took of the plenum cover in attempt to change the AM fitting and I noticed some fluid like brake fluid o oil in the lip of the plenum. I'm hoping for brake fluid since the manfold is connected to the vac. tree which is connectd to the power brake booster
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MiracleMax-Thanks for the advice. FYI-I got a fluidyne raduator with a Edelbrock reverse rotation 5.0 pump, Black Magic electric fan and no coolant pipes a la stock 5.0. Maybe that's the problem?
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Hmmm... the radiator and water pump seems up to snuff? the pump especially, since the Edelbrock pumps increase pressure and even out coolant flow into the engine. The benefit there is higher block pressures squeeze out air pockets and raise the boiling point of coolant inside the block (funny huh, every pound of pressure you increase the system raises boiling point by 2 degrees I beleive, and since block pressures are typically higher than in the rest of the system the boiling point is even higher).
My guess (if everything is alright engine pump and radiator wise) your electric fan is letting you down |
The fan is only rated at 350HP. It could be the problem. What do you think about using a stock pulley? That would help rotate the pump quicker, right?
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I remembered reading something about old 351 blocks and water passages. This was a blurb in the installation notes for my TFS TW heads.
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------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible [This message has been edited by jimberg (edited 07-31-2001).] |
No I didn't. This is not good. thanks, I need to talk to my engine builder.
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hi perf pump + UD pulley @ low rpm = stock cooling or there abouts and as engine speed increase the gap opens back up in favor of the modified pump. Taking a look at things Jim might have the answer? especially since you indicated that the engine ran cooler with the stat out. I would venture to say that maybe if you have the early block with your heads then maybe the water is cycled through the system to fast to allow steam pockets much time to accumulate? that wouldn't be a fix though, just some duct tape covering up a problem since you still wouldn't be getting the benefit of allowing the coolant in the block time enough to absorb heat to its capacity. |
But where was the info in my box from Summit for such a drastic modification? I spent 8 months putting this car together and I did a lot of research into what I bought. I don't mean to sound like an A$$hole but I've spent too much time on the phone with tech's from Edelbrock, Summit, and FRPP to have not heard about this. I can't imagine how many dents I'd kick in the car if I have to yank that damn engine back out for the 11th time. Basically, I've come too far to go backwards. If I need to disassemble the engine I'm done with this project. I'll sell everything.
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Don't get discouraged my man! I know what your going through, I built a 302 and it grenaded about 2 weeks after I fired it up, discouraged...yes. Give up! No mother freakin way! If it blows up again I'll build another one!
Anywhosit you'll never get back what you put into it money or laborwise. whats it take to pull the motor from the car? an hour and a half start to finish (I've yanked mine in as little as 45 minutes) then you got a little bit of teardown to do? If you want to make that a last resort, then put together a check list and work your way down from simnple to hard. I'd start with the engines state of tune then go on to the cooling system, elminating any problems as a I worked along, checking things like part numbers and the like, maybe switching some things out? Do you have the old fan assy? If so try pulling the the electric fan and installing an engine driven fan to see if that helps? Dude you obviously spent some time and effort putting your combo together, no point in throwing it all away even if it means you have to pull the egine (or not the way Jim seems to describe, if thats the problem? You might just have to pull the heads?) |
I ried it again without a thermostat today and the engine started to heat up after about 15 minutes. I'm really starting to think that these dudes from edelbrock lie, or the pulley's I got from MARCH are straight drag racing??
Anyway, I get home and park the car on a decline with the front end pointing down. That's how the driveway is designed. 2 minutes into shutoff I blow a brand new thermostat gasket I installed. So I remove the radiator cap with a towel protecting my hands and some hot coolant come up. THEN all of a sudden the MOROSO reservoir decides to kick in and dumps a little rad. fluid and some dirt out the release valve. This sucks. It's my b-day and I can' even enjoy my car, I'm willing to met a bet that my engine builder screwed something up with the gakets. |
Sounds like your head gaskets might be installed backwards (i.e. coolant passage holes towards the front instead of the back).
------------------ Craig Supercharged 93 GT Basically stock 93 Cobra "I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol!" |
Try to tell my engine builder that. He keeps blaming the Waterpump and pulleys
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I have a stock water pump and BBK underdrive pulleys and don't overheat. I think it's time to find a new engine builder.
------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible |
I talked with him today and he said checked the head gaskets several times to make sure that they fit correctly and didn't block my coolant passages. I have a stock type March pulley coming tomarrow which will hopefully help me. It has to....I hope. The rep. from March said that the set of pulley's I have kill my cooling bby 20%! That's pretty significant, right? As far as getting a new engine builder, I really can't. Everyone around here is Chevy, Chevy, Chevy. He really is the most reputable builder and takes a lot of pride in his work. I have no other avenues to explore. The reason he keeps bringing up the water pump is b/c he thinks the impeller might not be turning the right way, making my pump a standard rotation pump. If it was a standard rotation and I'm driving it the wrong way how could the engine cool?
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------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible |
Ihad both pumps at one time and when I realized I needed the 8840 from Edelbrock I sent back the other one for the standard rotation...I think. I called Summit to verify I sent back the standard roatation and they agreed that the one I sent back was the standard one. But how do I know for sure? They supposedly have someone on the floor that visually checks but there is no guarantee.
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You're not going to believe this, I very recently went through something exactly like this. My car was running hot after the new engine so I upgraded the coolings system with a griffin rad and black magic fan. It still ran hot.. even hotter than before. I changed the thermostat a couple times(aggrevating with a blower on) and I kept trying to figure it out. Long story short.. the black magic fan was blowing the wrong way!! It was wired wrong from the factory! It felt like it was blowing in the right direction when you put your hand behind it because it was blowing against the radiator and then back towards the engine. We dropped the fan and switched 2 wires and now it runs so cool... its perfect.
------------------ Rick My 89lx(updated 7/20/2001) My 97 Cobra |
I'm trying to see if the water pump is the problem so after I replaced the crank pulley with the standard diameter and start the engine with the rad. cap off. I let it run a few minutes and then it starts to blow the coolant out onto the ground. Does this mean that I have the wrong water pump. It's supposed to be a reverrse rotation Edelbrock. But if it's blowing out does that mean it's a standard rotation?? I'm going to post a new topic for this one.
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You need to ask your engine guy if he drilled any holes in the block, four on each side. If he says (what holes) well then you know the problem.
------------------ Stock 89 GT with 147000 miles,but not for long. Now with 3.73`s, soon 306 from 85 install. |
429AL-The Edelbrock people told us we didn't need to drill the holes for their heads. Have I been lied to or am I missing your point?
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What's a good way for me to check the direction of my fan? How did you come to find out it was wired wrong?
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The car was hot and I left the ignition on so that the fan was running, to try to cool the car down, and was leaning over the front of the car looking under the hood. I felt a very light breeze coming from in from of the grill, very light(didn't think too much of it at the time). Days later I was thinking about it and took a thin piece of cardboard and eased it between the fan and engine. It would blow the cardboard towards the engine until it got close to the center of the fan and it would start pulling it. The dang fan was blowing all that engine heat right into the rad and I couldn't go 15 miles without it boiling over. We checked to make sure it was wired right into the car and it was, but it was definitely blowing the wrong way. We dropped the fan and I opened the little box on the fan I switched a couple wires and presto the fan was blowing the right direction http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/smile.gif. Funny thing, I got the fan cheap because the guy said he didn't like the fan http://www.mustangworks.com/msgboard/biggrin.gif.
I was getting advise from everyone around here, my mechanic, mechanics at work, anyone.. I got advise like "must have air pockets" "maybe you have a clog somewhere" "have you checked the heater core?" I have a bald spot from scratching my head trying to figure it out(heeh). |
Well, we a pressure test on the cooling system with the engine off and she held 19 lbs. of pressure for over a minute. Only leak was at the therostat housing neck but with a couple turns of the screw driver it was air tight. So we decided to run the engine with the pressure tester still attached and we could feel the thermostat open and the cooling gauge stayed at 195ish the entire time she was running. My engine builder kept revving her and no leaks or drop in pressure ONCE!! No blown gaskets! That makes me feel much better. My only problem that is stopping me from going driving is a fuel leak on the drivers side middle of the freakin fuel rail. Those damn 90 degree AN fitting keep leaking on the retun to the regulator side of the fuel system. That's the driver's side fuel rail so I now have to remove the upper intake...... again. My engine builder also convinced me that the Black Majic 5.0 fan is a little too small for a 351 with no radiator shroud. The black majic is only 15 inches while the original fan on my block was a 18 incher. I think a larger electric or even mechanical fan will help. What do you all think?
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I'd say that a mechanical fan is the way to go with the kind of HP you plan to make. Get one of those police duty clutches, though.
------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible |
Funny you say that. My Uncle gave me a 7 fin fan out of a 85 crown vic police car earlier today. It has a clutch on it but I think I need some type of spacer to use it. Will I still need a shroud for this fan (if it fits?)
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A shroud will definitely help force air through the radiator better.
------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible |
But where can I find a larger shroud? Our 5.0 original OEM shrouds won't fit the larger 18in. fans that the 351W require. What size are you using? Did Ford or Saleen ever make a factory 5.0 style fox body mustang with a 351W?
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That would be a stock 5.0 fan & shroud with an HD, severe duty, police or whatever you call it clutch.
I'll tell you what miffs me, Jeg's has these integrated cooling systems (fan and radiator) good for some hefty HP, but they're all for Brand X and Nocar models. Here we are with legion among the muscle and no fan/radiator assembly despite adds in MM&FF? I'll have to check Becools web page to see if they have an app for the fox car? let me cut the rant machine off ::click:: Okay, here's hoping things work out with the mech fan ROTY. |
I have a fan from a 85 Police car that had a 351W with a V-belt system in it. But it wasn't designed for a reverse rotation. Will it still work, or at least work better than this Black Majic crap? This fan also has a police package clutch on it. What is this clutch actually do? Should I use it and try to find a shroud from a crown vic or 5.0 to match? Thanks for the help.
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Get a stock 5.0 fan and shroud and keep the police duty clutch while ditching the fan. You want the fan to pull cold air in from the outside not pushing hot air from the engine compartment through the radiator.
------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible |
Have you checked you black magic fan to see which way it is blowing??
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It's blowing from the pass. side to the driver's side. Counterclockwise when sitting in the car, clockwise when stading in front of the car. Is that a problem?
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I don't have my mustang right now so I can't go check, but... I really can't remember(I don't wanna tell you wrong). Do like I did and take a narrow piece of card board and put it between the engine and fan(with engine off) and move it towards the center of the fan. That should tell you, it showed me.
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Whichever direction the fan spins, the leading edge of rotation should be nearer the radiator.
------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible |
as far as the rotation thing goesa geoff chambers has a good write up on it you could just take a short belt and try the two routings and if it cools with the normal set up you have the wrong water pump but you could just change you routing like in the article.
both pumps force the water the same way when working right it has to do with the side of the pully the belt goes on. ------------------ 89 with 395 single stage n2o .garret t3. 373's Suspention worked out finnaly . need cage . |
Where can I read Jeff's article? I have a correct 302 5.0 reverse rotation pump made by edelbrock. My engine originally came with a standard rotation, pass. side inlet water pump. Any 5.0 owner can verify that their pump inlet is on the driver's side. My engine came with a pass. side outlet. Could that be my problem? Or maybe it's the thermostat. I'll know for sure real soon. I ordered the OEM shroud and a reverse rotation flex fan today. It'll be here by Thurs. Hopefully this works. I really want to drive my car. My situation sounds a lot like the guy who posted a cooling question, he goes by tb. My thermo. doesn't seem to open at the right time. I had to leave it in the water until boiling point to open it.
That probably has something to do with it. Quote:
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This is an interesting thread that I hadn't read until today. To answer your most recent question, it's extremely important that the t-stat opens at the proper temp, but you said this problem existed to the same extent with or without a t-stat installed, so I doubt that will solve everything, but it's still a wise idea to replace it with one that you have tested and verified to work properly. I recommend buying one from Ford. What I really wanted to touch on, that no else has, is your radiator cap. Maybe I misunderstood what you said, but I got the impression that when you pressure tested the system, and then let it run with the tester in place, you didn't have any problems. If that is correct, then your problem is largely based on having a defective cap. Maintaining pressure in the system is critical to running cool. Have your builder (or whoever pressure tested your system) check the cap to see how much pressure it holds. If it's less than 15 pounds, replace it with a cap that tests good to 15 pounds. The combination of a bad t-stat and a weak cap could and would lead to an overheating problem. The last thing I wanted clarification on was your fan, and the direction it is blowing. Right to left tells me nothing. I believe it was Jim that said it best: the leading edge of the fans rotation should be closest to the radiator. In other words, which ever way the blade rotates, the angled tip of each blade that is the closest to the radiator should be the leading direction in which the fan rotates. Is this the case with yours?
Let's figure this one out. Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!! |
Heheheeh, reading your post is better than reading a factory manual!! How the hell you been PKRWD?
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http://www.kellnet.com/chambers/default.htm
this is where the article is I hope it helps ------------------ 89 with 395 single stage n2o .garret t3. 373's Suspention worked out finnaly . need cage . |
Yes, my fan's leading edge is facing the radiator so I guess it's blowing in the right direction. But it looks REALLY small compared to the engine.
I bought a Ford OEM thermo and placed it in a pan of water next to the STANT. Guess what? The Stant opened up first! So I took a ride and bought a Robert Shaw thermo last night. I haven't installed it yet but I DID try to install the Ford OEM. I wasn't happy. The thermo didn't open until my engine was at about 210-220 degrees. That's way to much for my engine. My reason for installing it was because I noticed a pressure valve at 12 0'clock that I assumed would help, but didn't. Today I'm going home after work and trying the 180 degree Robert Shaw thermo and installing a mechanical fan from Flex fan designed for reverse rotation. The shroud will be coming in tomarrow from the Ford dealer. I hope I can figure this out. This Sat. is Ford day at Lebanon Valley and I'd like to be part of the show even if I can't make a pass. 1 more question. What type of damage am I doing to my brand new engine by allowing it to keep heating up? I was thinking about it last night and it really started to bother me. I have this really expensive engine that hasn'e even been truely broken in and I keep getting it hot. Not to the point where it has ever boiled over, but it gets hot. Am I killing my engine? |
What about the cap? I'm surprised you had trouble with a Ford T-stat. The OEM replacement is a 192 degree t-stat. Did you specify a 180? Anyway, what did your cap test at? I just finished a replacing a turbo and a head on a Volvo because the lady that drove it didn't believe the cap could cause it to overheat. Instead of spending $6, she just paid me $3800.
If you really want to make this simple, you can. Pressure test the cap to 15 psi, put in a verified 180 t-stat, the stock pullies, a mechanical fan WITHOUT ANY CLUTCH, and a shroud that is no further away from the fan blades than a half inch. It is also important that the fan is spaced away from the engine exactly to the point where, when installed with the shroud, half of the blade is inside the shroud, and half is out. The fan is useless without a properly fitted shroud. The shroud's not there to protect your fingers, it's there to create a seal around the fan creating a vacuum that sucks cool air through your radiator. If you do those 5 simple things, you will either solve your problem, or make certian that the problem lies in the engine. If you would rather do part now, and part later, you're going to be chasing your tail, again. Pressure test the cap at 15 psi. Install a t-stat that is verified to open at 180 degrees. Don't install the fan until you have the shroud, and measure and install them together so that the fan sits half in and half out of the shroud. And when you do install the fan and shroud, don't use a clutch. Make sure you're mixture isn't more than 10% coolant in the radiator, and that the cap is on tight from the minute you start it. I couldn't tell from your other posts if you had been doing that or not, but do it this time. If it overheats after that, you've got a problem with the engine. As far as harming your engine goes, you should be fine, but make sure you retorque your head/intake/exhaust bolts before you start driving it. Take care ~Chris Hey rbatson!! How are ya? I've been doing okay. I'm crewing for a different Sprint car team this year, and we're in first place! Check out my web site (link below). It pretty much tells the story. When you get there, check out the links on top. Especially, (you'll love this!) the "Ouch!!!" page. Click on that link, and scroll about halfway down. There you will see several pictures of what happens when a 650 horsepower small block "throws a couple rods". Great pictures! Make sure you click on them so you can see the big pictures, and all the detail! Send me an email after your done! Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!! |
I did not pressure test the cap. How can I do it? I'll try anything at this point.
QUOTE]Originally posted by PKRWUD: [B]What about the cap? No, I didn't specify 180, so naturally the Stant would open first. The funny thing is that these thermo's don't open until the water boils which is 212 degrees. What good is that doing my engine? I'm surprised you had trouble with a Ford T-stat. The OEM replacement is a 192 degree t-stat. Did you specify a 180? I DO want to make it simple. I have the stock crank pulley (from Mach) installed now. As far as the water pump pulley goes, it's part of the March kit #2010. March said that shouldn't be a problem 'cause the stock crank pulley is back in place. The fan is a flex-a-lite for reverse rotation and it is arriving today. The shroud will be in tomarrow. I have a 180 degree thermo made by Robert Shaw which everyone says is real good brand. Also, I have a police duty clutch from a 85 Crown Vic but I won't use it right away per your instructions. Also, I have started it with and without the cap. Without the cap some of the fluid blows out of the radiator and then needs to be refilled. I think it's also important to metion that I'm doing all this testing with the front end of the car on a decline. I should probably back it out of the driveway and get her on level ground for my next test, right? Thanks for the help. If you really want to make this simple, you can. Pressure test the cap to 15 psi, put in a verified 180 t-stat, the stock pullies, a mechanical fan WITHOUT ANY CLUTCH, and a shroud that is no further away from the fan blades than a half inch. It is also important that the fan is spaced away from the engine exactly to the point where, when installed with the shroud, half of the blade is inside the shroud, and half is out. The fan is useless without a properly fitted shroud. The shroud's not there to protect your fingers, it's there to create a seal around the fan creating a vacuum that sucks cool air through your radiator. If you do those 5 simple things, you will either solve your problem, or make certian that the problem lies in the engine. If you would rather do part now, and part later, you're going to be chasing your tail, again. |
I forgot to ask you what the pressure valve on the OEM thermo is for and why are they not on the STANT and Robert Shaw thermo's?
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Hey, i'm just trying to help you.
When you pressure tested the cooling system, it should have been with what looked like a bicycle pump with a hose going to a cap that screwed onto the radiator in place of the radiator cap. By pumping the pump, you apply pressure to the system. Well, the kit that the pump came in also has an attachment that is really just two radiator water necks welded together. You attach the pump to one end, and the cap to the other, and pump it up to the desired pressure, and verify that it holds. You will need to grab your cap and go see the guy who tested your cooling system for you, and ask him to check the cap. It will only take a second, but is very important. "No, I didn't specify 180, so naturally the Stant would open first. The funny thing is that these thermo's don't open until the water boils which is 212 degrees. What good is that doing my engine?" When the cap is in place, and the system is sealed, the boiling point rises. With the cap off, or on but not holding pressure, the boiling point lowers. Please clarify for me if I understood you correctly when you said that you didn't have any problems the time you ran it while the pressure tester was installed. And yes, you need to have the car on either on level ground, or with the front higher. You always want the radiator cap to be higher than any other part of the cooling system, otherwise you will have air pockets. If you can get to eye level with the cap, and look towards the engine, see if any part of the engine is higher that the cap. If it is, you had air the the system. The fan clutch you have will probably be fine, but I want you to skip it at first. Otherwise you'll be wondering if the clutch was any good. I'm trying to eliminate as many variables as possible. Keep it simple. The placement of the fan in relation to the shroud is critical, and it would be wise to do them both at the same time. If you have the Shaw t-stat, go test it. Make sure you raise the heat slowly, though. I really believe that your problems are due to several little things, and if I'm wrong, at least you will have eliminated them all. Okay, here you go: Have the cap checked. It must hold pressure at 15 psi. test and install a 180 t-stat. Install the fan and shroud like I described before. Park your car on level ground, and fill it up with water only. If there is some coolant already in the system, leave it, but top it off with only water. cap it and start it. I can't always get to the sight, but I want to help you with this. You can email me at pkrwuds@pacbell.net if you have any other questions, and even if you don't, keep me posted! Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!! |
in repetition, it's good to hear from you pkrwud...a word to all the newer folk, listen to this guy.
that's all. ------------------ 1982 Mustang GT |
FYI-When we ran the engine with the pump attached in place of the cap the engine was nice and cool, under 210 degrees. No change in pressure was seen and even after we shut her down it was a few minutes before the pressure dropped enough to remove the tester. Also, I forgot to ask you if I need to drill a hole for pressure a la OEM thermo. in the Shaw 180 thermo.
I am really beginning to think that my problem has a lot to do with my car being parked on a decline. Every test we've done has been when the car was on a decline, so hopefully 1) moving the car out of the driveway 2) emptying and re-filling the coolant system with water (to rid the system of air pockets), 3)putting in a good 180 thermo., and 4)installing the Flex-fan (w/out clutch but with shroud) should keep me cool. But once again the shroud probably won't come in until Thurs. so I won't even attemp to turn her over tonight. I'll just install the thermo. and fan and get prepared for the shroud and the final test Thurs. Boy am I gonna be nervous! This car has been stressing me as I've spent almost a year researching and building this car. Thanks a lot for the help. I really appreciate it. You sound like a pro and I'm lucky to have you helping me along with all the other fellow "Stangers" and Ford Men. |
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