HP vs ET vs seat 'o the pants

KiltedBanshees93GT · 03-24-2004, 01:39 PM

I'm currently making plans as to what I want to do with my cars, and I've seen numbers, read estimates, etc. My question is how do you decide how much power you're looking for, without the exp of riding in really high hp cars or having the feel for the hp you want. I dont consider myself "ambitious" as far as my power goals, but I dont know how to express them numerically , and from there make the plans needed.
I want to make my 93 something of an all around performer, with an excellent suspension and handeling, and the 66 will eventually be more of an all out "scary fast" type car. I just dont know what kind of goals I should be setting with each of them, and consiquently, what type of combos to consider.
What I'm thinking right now is a stroked 351w (havent decided displacement yet) for the '66 and a moderatly mild street engine (possibly another 351, non stroked) built for a turbo to be named later

Suggestions anyone?

J

GhettoPop · 03-24-2004, 04:48 PM

basically, your bank statement will determine your plans

nowever much u estimate your plans will be, double it

Fox Body · 03-25-2004, 04:13 PM

Banshee, I think you are on the right track. IMO, those are great choices for engine blocks. A stroked, carb'd 351W high comp (and nitroused) for the all out drag 9-10 sec drag car and a low compression, blown EFI 351W or 302 for the street car that runs high 12s to low 11s. After you've saved up, you'll need to spend a few months planning.

I guess I'd start planning for the slowest one first. Check out companies like DSS, CHP (and other places that build long/shortblock combos), AFR, TFS, Procharger, etc. Order their brochures, ask around at the local dragstrip, etc. Get a combo together and then post it up here and get opinions then rethink as needed. Takes time if you want something that's solid and well-done (ie, well-planned).

Ron1 · 03-25-2004, 08:47 PM

You really don't need a "nitroused" 351W to run 9-10's. A naturally aspirated 351, using a Dart block that is bored .125 over, can be stroked up to 428 inches. I have a good friend, using that combination with a 13.5/1 comp. ratio, ran a 9.64 in an 88 GT first time on the track. He ran DFI on the motor, but it could easily been done with a carb instead.
Your other idea on a non-stroked low compression motor would also work well.

Ron

KiltedBanshees93GT · 03-26-2004, 01:26 PM

Thanks for the ideas guys, I have been thinking about what to do with the cars for a while, and the stroked 351/efi 351 plan just jelled in my head a while back (one of those *slaps forhead* kinda moments)
As far as the stroked motor and the '66, I dont even think I'd be shooting for 9's (I'm not really interested in building a pure strip car, I want her to moderatly comfortable on the street) Do you think a middle of the road stroker 351 (i.e.393) would be too much for what I'm thinking about? How hard would mid 10's be to get with that combo without gutting the car?
Do you think the price would outweight the performance value of that goal? If so would a stroked 302 be a better option? (I like the durability aspect of the 351 idea tho. )

As for the 93, I want something that handles great, and is mild enough to be a daily driver, but I've also gotten a bit of a bug for road racing. The reason I like the turbo 351 idea is that you dont have to go too aggressive on the engine design , ie cam etc but it still has power on demand without sacrificing too much reliability. I like the 11's-12 goal. What sort of HP (assuming a streetable gear like 3.55/3.73) would be realistic for those numbers?

I have a sneaking suspicion that I have over estimated as to what kind of power I would need to make for the stated goals, But hey , I always "over engineer" things, just to be on the safe side

Thanks again for your help.

J

KiltedBanshees93GT · 03-28-2004, 04:05 PM

Anyone?

Bueller?

Bueller?

J

Ron1 · 03-28-2004, 04:35 PM

Before I answer that, can I ask about what has been done to the 66 as far as chassis, suspension, roll bar, transmission, traction issues etc. (budget for all that is?)
10's will require a roll bar, and most likely a mini tub to fit a minimum of a 10.5 inch tire under the car. It is easier to make the power, leaving you with the problem of how to get it to the ground. I would suggest a MII fornt end to remove the shock towers. The 351W fits, and parts are readily available for the swap, but you don't want to have to lift the motor, just to change a plug.

Anyway, what else has been done to the car?

Ron

KiltedBanshees93GT · 03-28-2004, 05:28 PM

The 66 is basically stock right now,front/rear roll bars (dont know the diameters) 4 wheel drum brakes, single m/c no subframes etc.
Once I get the 93 back up, I will be taking her off the road to start mods. The inital stages will be to bring her up to modern "roadworthy" standards. The frontend definatly needs a rebuild, and I'm planning on working a brake upgrade into it (granada discs to start, and down the road going for larger front, and rear discs.)
I would rather not cut into her, as far as tubbing and shock tower removal goes. (I hadnt heard about access issues w/ the 351. something to keep in mind). I have no problem with having a roll cage, but I dont want to build a car so modded that I cant take it out for a cruse.
Budget right now is about 200 a month, but I'm taking the long view on things, and trying to plan the mods in waves, focusing on the handling and suspension first, and building the motor once I have the car ready for a nice engine.
This is the same idea that I have for the 93. I want her to be able to handle beyond her engines power before I start upgrading the engine itself.
Basically (I know the following descriptives are kinda useless without an empirical comparison for perspective) I want the 93 to be a very nimble street car with a lot of grunt. The 66 will be the "big gun" and geared more toward straight line. I doubt that I'll put alot of time in at the strip, but overall, I'm looking for a pair of cars that will hold their own against pretty much anything I'm likely to run into on the street short of exotics and trailer queens.
simple, right?

p.s. sorry 'bout the diatribe. just trying to clarify my feelings/goals
J

Ron1 · 03-28-2004, 09:54 PM

I am not sure what you mean by "front an rear roll bars". Do you mean anti-sway bars or a roll cage?
If I was to do it all over again, I would start at the rear end and work forward. A solid 9 inch Ford rear end. I like the idea of the front discs. A good transmission and drive train. An interior roll bar with a swing out bar. Subframe connectors, and lastly the higher HP motor.

Ron

Ron1 · 03-29-2004, 01:06 AM

I am not sure what you mean by "front an rear roll bars". Do you mean anti-sway bars or a roll cage?
If I was to do it all over again, I would start at the rear end and work forward. A solid 9 inch Ford rear end. I like the idea of the front discs. A good transmission and drive train. An interior roll bar with a swing out bar. Subframe connectors, and lastly the higher HP motor.

Ron

KiltedBanshees93GT · 03-29-2004, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron1
I am not sure what you mean by "front an rear roll bars". Do you mean anti-sway bars or a roll cage?
I

Sorry, anti sway bars was what I meant. The beer got me on that one,LOL

J

stang_racer20 · 03-30-2004, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KiltedBanshees93GT
Sorry, anti sway bars was what I meant. The beer got me on that one,LOL

J

It gets us all Banshee, it gets us all!

KiltedBanshees93GT · 03-30-2004, 12:06 PM

So what do you guys think? are my ideas overkill? I am planning this on a modest budget, and if I can save money, I happily will.

Ideas folks?

Jorge

Fox Body · 03-30-2004, 01:34 PM

Well, at least you're thinking, you gotta begin somewhere. I don't think your ideas are overkill. The only thing is that I've come to learn that things take time and usually cost more than you plan so keep that in mind. Also, I'd look at a gradual build rather than an all out build. Pic a car to start on depending on your driving habits/situation and start planning for that. For example, if you wanna have a good weekend warrior, start by planning a mid to high 12 sec car that you could run at the track and while having a little fun with it from time to time, save up for a power adder such as nitrous or blower to knock off a second or 2. THat way, your plans will become more refined during this time also gaining knowledge and you can still have some fun in the mean time. Just some thoughts...

82 GT · 04-01-2004, 04:18 PM

Look at my signature at the bottom. I haven't gotten it on the street yet( thanks to the D.O.T) but I'm guessing low 13's with street tires and high 12's with slicks.
You are not going to need nitrous or a turbo....or stroker kit for that matter to run 12's
The key to having a strong engine is all in the selection of parts.
You can sink 3K in an engine and end up getting out run by a stock mustang if you choose the wrong parts.

03-24-2004, 01:39 PM	#1
KiltedBanshees93GT Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Pigeon Forge Tn Posts: 611	HP vs ET vs seat 'o the pants I'm currently making plans as to what I want to do with my cars, and I've seen numbers, read estimates, etc. My question is how do you decide how much power you're looking for, without the exp of riding in really high hp cars or having the feel for the hp you want. I dont consider myself "ambitious" as far as my power goals, but I dont know how to express them numerically , and from there make the plans needed. I want to make my 93 something of an all around performer, with an excellent suspension and handeling, and the 66 will eventually be more of an all out "scary fast" type car. I just dont know what kind of goals I should be setting with each of them, and consiquently, what type of combos to consider. What I'm thinking right now is a stroked 351w (havent decided displacement yet) for the '66 and a moderatly mild street engine (possibly another 351, non stroked) built for a turbo to be named later Suggestions anyone? J __________________ ____________ '66 Mustang Coupe- AKA "Lenore" on disability for a (long) bit '93 GT Mostly stock AKA "Fawkes" Rice Haters Club Member #239 "I find your lack of faith...disturbing." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." H. L. Mencken

03-24-2004, 04:48 PM	#2
GhettoPop Gimme a Drink! Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 694	basically, your bank statement will determine your plans nowever much u estimate your plans will be, double it __________________ 1990 GT,stock T-5,K&N w/o air silencer,March underdrives,FMS wires,timing@14*,PA Perf 130amp alt,Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter,Steeda adj quadrant/clutch cable/firewall adj,Centerforce II clutch,o/r x-pipe,Magnaflow SS catback,g-load brace, subframes,Bilstein struts/shocks,Autometer gauges, 136k and running strong!

03-25-2004, 04:13 PM	#3
Fox Body Mustang Maniac Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: GA, U.S.A Posts: 2,266	Banshee, I think you are on the right track. IMO, those are great choices for engine blocks. A stroked, carb'd 351W high comp (and nitroused) for the all out drag 9-10 sec drag car and a low compression, blown EFI 351W or 302 for the street car that runs high 12s to low 11s. After you've saved up, you'll need to spend a few months planning. I guess I'd start planning for the slowest one first. Check out companies like DSS, CHP (and other places that build long/shortblock combos), AFR, TFS, Procharger, etc. Order their brochures, ask around at the local dragstrip, etc. Get a combo together and then post it up here and get opinions then rethink as needed. Takes time if you want something that's solid and well-done (ie, well-planned). __________________ 351W-powered 1979 Ford Mustang Ghia notchback '79 Video @ Idle Stock 5.8L under 4" cowl 'glass hood, C4 w/ Transgo shift kit, Holley 750 cfm, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake; Fluidyne Al radiator, Flexalite 175 electric fan, 1 5/8" MAC shorty headers, FRPP Al driveshaft; S&W 6-point cage; 2.5" Off road H-pipe, 2-chamber Flowmasters, 8.8" Rear w/ 3.55s; Weld wheels (15x6;15x8), Front: 225/60/15, Rear: 275/50/15 Nitto NT 555R Drag Radials; 14 x 4” K&N X-stream air filter. '92 GT (5-speed) Small In Car Video Stock 5.0L, 2-chamber Flowmasters, MAC CAI, Tri-Ax, Al pedals... "Red, thou art my companion. Hasten now your quickened metamorphosis to Green that I may conquer all who dare abide there beside me. May they be left thither behind burnt black." ---Fox Body

03-25-2004, 08:47 PM	#4
Ron1 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Vancouver, WA USA Posts: 439	You really don't need a "nitroused" 351W to run 9-10's. A naturally aspirated 351, using a Dart block that is bored .125 over, can be stroked up to 428 inches. I have a good friend, using that combination with a 13.5/1 comp. ratio, ran a 9.64 in an 88 GT first time on the track. He ran DFI on the motor, but it could easily been done with a carb instead. Your other idea on a non-stroked low compression motor would also work well. Ron __________________ 65 Mustang Fastback 347 Stroker, C4 with 4.56 10.68 @ 122 N/A 9.74 @ 137 w/ N2O www.fastspecialties.com

03-26-2004, 01:26 PM	#5
KiltedBanshees93GT Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Pigeon Forge Tn Posts: 611	Thanks for the ideas guys, I have been thinking about what to do with the cars for a while, and the stroked 351/efi 351 plan just jelled in my head a while back (one of those slaps forhead kinda moments) As far as the stroked motor and the '66, I dont even think I'd be shooting for 9's (I'm not really interested in building a pure strip car, I want her to moderatly comfortable on the street) Do you think a middle of the road stroker 351 (i.e.393) would be too much for what I'm thinking about? How hard would mid 10's be to get with that combo without gutting the car? Do you think the price would outweight the performance value of that goal? If so would a stroked 302 be a better option? (I like the durability aspect of the 351 idea tho. ) As for the 93, I want something that handles great, and is mild enough to be a daily driver, but I've also gotten a bit of a bug for road racing. The reason I like the turbo 351 idea is that you dont have to go too aggressive on the engine design , ie cam etc but it still has power on demand without sacrificing too much reliability. I like the 11's-12 goal. What sort of HP (assuming a streetable gear like 3.55/3.73) would be realistic for those numbers? I have a sneaking suspicion that I have over estimated as to what kind of power I would need to make for the stated goals, But hey , I always "over engineer" things, just to be on the safe side Thanks again for your help. J __________________ ____________ '66 Mustang Coupe- AKA "Lenore" on disability for a (long) bit '93 GT Mostly stock AKA "Fawkes" Rice Haters Club Member #239 "I find your lack of faith...disturbing." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." H. L. Mencken

03-28-2004, 04:05 PM	#6
KiltedBanshees93GT Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Pigeon Forge Tn Posts: 611	Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? J __________________ ____________ '66 Mustang Coupe- AKA "Lenore" on disability for a (long) bit '93 GT Mostly stock AKA "Fawkes" Rice Haters Club Member #239 "I find your lack of faith...disturbing." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." H. L. Mencken

03-28-2004, 04:35 PM	#7
Ron1 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Vancouver, WA USA Posts: 439	Before I answer that, can I ask about what has been done to the 66 as far as chassis, suspension, roll bar, transmission, traction issues etc. (budget for all that is?) 10's will require a roll bar, and most likely a mini tub to fit a minimum of a 10.5 inch tire under the car. It is easier to make the power, leaving you with the problem of how to get it to the ground. I would suggest a MII fornt end to remove the shock towers. The 351W fits, and parts are readily available for the swap, but you don't want to have to lift the motor, just to change a plug. Anyway, what else has been done to the car? Ron __________________ 65 Mustang Fastback 347 Stroker, C4 with 4.56 10.68 @ 122 N/A 9.74 @ 137 w/ N2O www.fastspecialties.com

03-28-2004, 05:28 PM	#8
KiltedBanshees93GT Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Pigeon Forge Tn Posts: 611	The 66 is basically stock right now,front/rear roll bars (dont know the diameters) 4 wheel drum brakes, single m/c no subframes etc. Once I get the 93 back up, I will be taking her off the road to start mods. The inital stages will be to bring her up to modern "roadworthy" standards. The frontend definatly needs a rebuild, and I'm planning on working a brake upgrade into it (granada discs to start, and down the road going for larger front, and rear discs.) I would rather not cut into her, as far as tubbing and shock tower removal goes. (I hadnt heard about access issues w/ the 351. something to keep in mind). I have no problem with having a roll cage, but I dont want to build a car so modded that I cant take it out for a cruse. Budget right now is about 200 a month, but I'm taking the long view on things, and trying to plan the mods in waves, focusing on the handling and suspension first, and building the motor once I have the car ready for a nice engine. This is the same idea that I have for the 93. I want her to be able to handle beyond her engines power before I start upgrading the engine itself. Basically (I know the following descriptives are kinda useless without an empirical comparison for perspective) I want the 93 to be a very nimble street car with a lot of grunt. The 66 will be the "big gun" and geared more toward straight line. I doubt that I'll put alot of time in at the strip, but overall, I'm looking for a pair of cars that will hold their own against pretty much anything I'm likely to run into on the street short of exotics and trailer queens. simple, right? p.s. sorry 'bout the diatribe. just trying to clarify my feelings/goals J __________________ ____________ '66 Mustang Coupe- AKA "Lenore" on disability for a (long) bit '93 GT Mostly stock AKA "Fawkes" Rice Haters Club Member #239 "I find your lack of faith...disturbing." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." H. L. Mencken

03-28-2004, 09:54 PM	#9
Ron1 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Vancouver, WA USA Posts: 439	I am not sure what you mean by "front an rear roll bars". Do you mean anti-sway bars or a roll cage? If I was to do it all over again, I would start at the rear end and work forward. A solid 9 inch Ford rear end. I like the idea of the front discs. A good transmission and drive train. An interior roll bar with a swing out bar. Subframe connectors, and lastly the higher HP motor. Ron __________________ 65 Mustang Fastback 347 Stroker, C4 with 4.56 10.68 @ 122 N/A 9.74 @ 137 w/ N2O www.fastspecialties.com

03-29-2004, 01:06 AM	#10
Ron1 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Vancouver, WA USA Posts: 439	I am not sure what you mean by "front an rear roll bars". Do you mean anti-sway bars or a roll cage? If I was to do it all over again, I would start at the rear end and work forward. A solid 9 inch Ford rear end. I like the idea of the front discs. A good transmission and drive train. An interior roll bar with a swing out bar. Subframe connectors, and lastly the higher HP motor. Ron __________________ 65 Mustang Fastback 347 Stroker, C4 with 4.56 10.68 @ 122 N/A 9.74 @ 137 w/ N2O www.fastspecialties.com

03-30-2004, 12:06 PM	#13
KiltedBanshees93GT Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Pigeon Forge Tn Posts: 611	So what do you guys think? are my ideas overkill? I am planning this on a modest budget, and if I can save money, I happily will. Ideas folks? Jorge __________________ ____________ '66 Mustang Coupe- AKA "Lenore" on disability for a (long) bit '93 GT Mostly stock AKA "Fawkes" Rice Haters Club Member #239 "I find your lack of faith...disturbing." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." H. L. Mencken

03-30-2004, 01:34 PM	#14
Fox Body Mustang Maniac Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: GA, U.S.A Posts: 2,266	Well, at least you're thinking, you gotta begin somewhere. I don't think your ideas are overkill. The only thing is that I've come to learn that things take time and usually cost more than you plan so keep that in mind. Also, I'd look at a gradual build rather than an all out build. Pic a car to start on depending on your driving habits/situation and start planning for that. For example, if you wanna have a good weekend warrior, start by planning a mid to high 12 sec car that you could run at the track and while having a little fun with it from time to time, save up for a power adder such as nitrous or blower to knock off a second or 2. THat way, your plans will become more refined during this time also gaining knowledge and you can still have some fun in the mean time. Just some thoughts... __________________ 351W-powered 1979 Ford Mustang Ghia notchback '79 Video @ Idle Stock 5.8L under 4" cowl 'glass hood, C4 w/ Transgo shift kit, Holley 750 cfm, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake; Fluidyne Al radiator, Flexalite 175 electric fan, 1 5/8" MAC shorty headers, FRPP Al driveshaft; S&W 6-point cage; 2.5" Off road H-pipe, 2-chamber Flowmasters, 8.8" Rear w/ 3.55s; Weld wheels (15x6;15x8), Front: 225/60/15, Rear: 275/50/15 Nitto NT 555R Drag Radials; 14 x 4” K&N X-stream air filter. '92 GT (5-speed) Small In Car Video Stock 5.0L, 2-chamber Flowmasters, MAC CAI, Tri-Ax, Al pedals... "Red, thou art my companion. Hasten now your quickened metamorphosis to Green that I may conquer all who dare abide there beside me. May they be left thither behind burnt black." ---Fox Body

04-01-2004, 04:18 PM	#15
82 GT Import Slayer Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 2,241	Look at my signature at the bottom. I haven't gotten it on the street yet( thanks to the D.O.T) but I'm guessing low 13's with street tires and high 12's with slicks. You are not going to need nitrous or a turbo....or stroker kit for that matter to run 12's The key to having a strong engine is all in the selection of parts. You can sink 3K in an engine and end up getting out run by a stock mustang if you choose the wrong parts. __________________ '82 GT 351W (.060)Comp Cams 274* Extreme Energy cam, ported & polished heads w/ 1.94/1.60 valves 10.3:1 flat top pistons,stealth intake, Mallory dizzy,Holley 750dp carb, BBK shorties,Flowmaster exhaust,C-4 with 3700 stall converter, B&M pro shifter,8.8 rear, 4:10's, subframes, electric fan, powermaster alternator, 4 core radiator.

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