Ignition problem
 

My girl freind was driving my car down the road and the check engine light went on and she pulled over and the car wouldn't work. I pulled the car into the garage and did a KOEO test. I receive code 96 High Speed fuel pump relay circuit open; Fuel pump secondary circuit failure. 21 Ect out of Self Test Range. I am not able to run a KOER Test. I checked the ect and it seems to be fine.

I can hear the fuel pump kick in and there is enough pressure at the shredder valve. I put new plug and new wires in the car. That didn't help. The Distributor cap and rotor are only six months old.
I can pick the center wire off the distributor and the car will keep on running due to the arking that I am creating. I bought a new MSD Coil and that didn't help. I then replaced the TFI Module, which Napa tested and said that it was no good. I then replaced the distributor, because I thought the stator was no good.

Starting fuel will not help. I can't hear any vaccuum leaks. The car has a new computer and fuel pump.

What do you think? Help!!

Any body have any problems with PIP?

I ready to take a shot in the dark and replace the wiring harness.

I'm not clear on what the problem is that you are trying to correct. What's wrong? What are the symptoms? How did you determine that the ECT is good? You shouldn't do a KOER until you correct the KOEO codes, but what do you mean you are "not able to run a KOER"?

Help me help you.

Take care,
~Chris

stalling engine
 

The engine will not turn over unless I pull the middle wire on the distributor and let it ark. The engine doesn't want to run unless you floor it and then it will shut down. The ECT is brand new. I tested it by measuring accross both terminals and received 2 volts. With the sensor connected and koeo I back probed through the wiring harness and found the same results.

I cleared the codes and try to run a KOER test and the scanner says that I'm not able to keep the engine running.

One day I drove the car around and was able to get a lot of KOEO codes. I will post to night. PKRWUD thankx for your help. I am clueless and really need your help. :D

The car won't TURN OVER unless you disconnect the coil wire at the cap and let the spark jump to the terminal?? Forgive me, but that makes no sense! Lol.... Ok, so you've got around 35-ish psi at the Schrader valve AFTER the priming, and about 38-40 psi DURING priming?

Now I'm not too familiar with Ford lingo..sorry....is the ECT the computer? (I'm used to hearing ECM.)

So the question is why won't the car stay running....the check engine light should have an answer if it's a sensor problem... I'll wait til you post those codes before I make any crazy guesses. But until then...maybe your EGR or IAC valves are completely frozen up. There, there's my 'shot in the dark' for ya.

Nixon- ECT = Engine Coolant Temp sensor

Mountain Main-
Check and see what your TPS reads at idle, engine off, key on, by back probing the Black and Green wires, with the TPS connected.

It should be less than 1 volt, but I suspect it will be closer to 5 volts. Then see what it reads at WOT, and note how smooth the transition is between the two as you slowly open the throttle. If you have a DMM with a bargraph, use it to watch the transition. It's much easier to view the bargraph than to accurately read the changing numbers.

Post your results.


Both of you:

TURNING OVER is accomplished by the starter, regardless of whether or not it starts. FIRING is what happens when everything works properly, and it starts.

:)

Take care,
~Chris

Thanks PKR...I was aware of that...which is why I said that makes no sense. ;) And thanks for the de-abbreviation on that.. I just call it the coolant temp sensor...didn't know the abbreviation for it.

What I did before reading your post.
 

I got the car running by lifting the wire off the center electrode of the distributor. Ran a KOEO test. It said that I received a code 96. No ECT code this time. Can you explain code 96.

Sorry for the terminology problem with turn over.

I don't have a bar graph DMM.

Should I test the TPS at the sensor or at the computer.

I assume I should test it at the sensor. While pulling back on the throttle linkage and testing the transition from idle to WOT

You can't do a KOER test untill you do fix the KOEO test correct.

Thanks

PKRWUD

Volt meter was burned up when I tried to use it.
 

I went to run the TPS test and my volt meter was fried. It looks like I need to buy a new volt meter. Any suggestions on what volt meter I should buy. I don't have a lot of experience with volt meters. I do understand now that you need to start with the high numbers and work up untill the scale is readable.

I also hear that it is good to have one that graphs.

http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/109/html/0650.html

I have the 87-3 model and I'll never use another. With all the money I've spent on lesser meters from Radio crack and other electronic's suppliers over a 10 year period, I could have bought 2 of these. And a handheld meter with graphing capabilities would be sweet, but as you can see on that page I linked the price is a bit restrictive for someone who dosent do alot of electronics work. In fact, for what you'll pay for a good DMM with an Oscilliscope function, you could buy the Fluke 87 AND a basic benchtop oscilliscope and STILL have enough money left for a basic 110 volt Mig welder. :D

I need for you to test the TPS first. Backprobe the connector at the TPS, not at the ECM. See, there is a very real possibility that you have a short to ground in your vref circuit. This can cause many, many problems, with several symptoms, including sending the ECM into clear flood mode. This may or may not be the problem, but the way I work, I rule out things in a set pattern. That way I'm not jumping all over the place. It's a b*tch doing diagnostics online, and i've given myself far too many headaches over the past 4+ years by not following a pattern, like I do in the real world. Besides, you're going to have to have a DMM before we can go on, anyway.



I agree with Fritz in that Fluke is the best bang for the buck. I've got at least a dozen DMM's, including a 25 year old Fluke benchtop DMM (with tubes!), but my favorite is my 88. It came in a nice little case with a very handy inductive pick-up for measuring rpms without having to disconnect anything...

I highly recommend that whatever DMM you get, try to get one with a bargraph. The tiny vertical lines at the bottom of the display in the attached pic shows what it looks like...

A DMM that has auto-ranging is a plus, too.

Ooooh, let me know if and when you might ever decide to ditch that old benchtop model! I got's dib's :D

OR, let me know if it fry's, I have a few good sources for replacement tubes you might find handy.

I'll put you in my Will.

:)

Take care,
~Chris

TPS Results
 

I put a new fuse in my DMM and it works so I did a Throttle Position Sensor tests. I did all these tests while KOER.

I first was able to back probe into the wiring harness connector that is closes to the sensor. But I was only able to get a connection with the green wire, which is the name of TP SIG. I tested it from idle to WOT. It looks like 0-5 volts smoothly.

I then wasn't able to back probe the orange wire, which is the Voltage Reference wire. So I jumped the orange wires and also jumped the green wires. The orange wire is consistant 5 volts through out idle and WOT.

Finally I did the black wire, which is the Signal Return wire I measured the return from the sensor and received a constant 4 1/2 Volts through out idle to WOT. There was one time I received 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 Volts from idle to WOT.

What do you think PKRWUD? Is the TPS toast.

P. S.
 

P.S.

PKRWUD


Nice DMM my buddy just got a fluke and spent 450 dollars on his out of Sears. A little to rich for my blood. I am looking for some thing that is under two hundred dollars.

Thanks

Mountain Main

Sounds like your TPS is operating OK from your description. Fluke has good meters for $200 or less. I have an older 7060A that is really nice. I've seen some pretty decent digitals for $50-100 for basic engine work. Not like a Fluke, but I bought one to keep on my bench all the time and it is very accurate - no bar graph though.

Re: TPS Results
 

First off, this needs to be done at KOEO. The engine is not to be running. Second, what did you connect your other test lead to when you got those readings? It really doesn't matter, what I need to know is what the reading is when you attach your leads to the green and black wires at the same time. Connect your pos. lead to the green wire, and your neg lead to the black wire, and read the meter at idle through WOT. Your readings did not sound normal, because your green wire results should never be zero volts, and I don't understand what you connected to to recieve voltage through the black wire. Forget about about the orange wire for now, just tell me the voltage between the green and black, while going through the throttle range. The wires have to be hooked up, and the key on, but the engine off.

Jumpering wires.
 

So I am going to do this test KOEO. I am jumping wires green and black with individual wires to their same color wire on the harness. I am going to be putting my positive lead on the of my dmm on the green wire and my negative lead of the dmm on the black wire. I am going to go through the throttle range. I'm not going to do any thing with the orange wire. I won't even be jumpered.

The previous time I connected the negative lead of my dmm to a ground on the car. This time I am going put the negative to black wire and the postive DMM lead to the Green wire.

Re: TPS Results
 

This tested the range of the TPS even though you used engine block ground instead of the black ground wire.

New Results
 

TPS looks good.

I jumped all three wires. I put the DMM negative lead on the black wire and DMM positive lead on the red wire. The first part of range throttle plate starts out at .8 of a volt and opens all the way to 4.95 of a volt at wot. I did this test while KOEO. The tps seems to go smooth through out the range.

What to do now? Where to start? Try to pull more codes. I think I am going to try to run a KOER test. What do you think?

I still don't know what it won't do. You say it won't crank - which means it won't engage the starter motor - but what I think you mean is it won't run unless you pull the coil wire. How does it run then? - just fire a couple of times and die or does it run and idle ok?

You've got a new distributor, coil, TFI, checked sensors, etc. Time to get into the wiring - especially the engine and main harness grounds. Ypou need to find them all, pull them loose, clean them up and reconnect them. Include the main ground from the battery to the block and the EEC ground on the driver fender near the coil location. I am going to post two pics of the Engine harness and the Main harness - study then closely and do the grounds.

Engine harness........

Main harness.............

Tommorrow.
 

I just bought some electric cleaner I will work on it tommorrow. The car turns over. I made a mistake with terms. The engine does not run unless I pull the center wire off of the distributor and let it arc. I have new TFI, Coil, ECM, spark plug wire, spark plugs, Map, ECT, EGR ,O2 and IAB. I turned the car from an AOD to a T-5. T-5 wiring harness going to the cruise control box. I had a shop do the wiring from the clutch peddal. I put a new fuel pump assembly in the car.

The only modifications that I have done is put the battery in the trunk of the car. Adjustible fuel pressure regulator. I get my new fuel pressure gauge tommorrow. Mack Header, Max off road x-pipe, Mack mufflers and tail pipes. I also have by passed the smog pump.

I am worried about seperating the Main engine harness and the injector harness. I hear this is a good place to clean the connections.

Thankx,

Mountain Main

Hmmm. The more I read this, the stranger it sound's.

Try using a different Coil wire, if it's a carbon core wire, perhaps the fillament is cracked and not passing a strong enough current down to the plug's?

yeah so let me get this straight aswell. The car only runs when u have the coil wire arc'd on the distributor? That makes no sence have u tried a different dist cap??? Or a new wire dist wire. So the car does not run at all then. Except what i stated above. It sounds like u have a bad ground some where did it ever run properly since the swap? Is there a good spark on the coil?


Like fritz said the more i read this the stranger it gets.

later hopefully we can get u back on the road

you got chris fired up and he has never let me down...

Work I did.
 

So yesterday and today I worked on cleaning all the harness connections. Same problem and I went through the whole main harness and injector harness.

I got the car running perfect when the distributor cap wasn' totally on. I realized the distributor rotor has a huge burn mark on it. I believe it was accell from summit.

I just ordered a new distributor cap and rotor from summit. A ford motor sport racing cap and rotor.

The other distrubutor cap was only had 6 months of use on it. Crazy! I will post when I receive the new parts.

Has any body seen that.

Thanks

Mountain Main

Stranger things have happened. It's believable. Hope that cap works.... Wonder what made it burn in the first place. Was there any cracks in the cap or rotor assembly? Do you have any sort of aftermarket ignition device, like an MSD box?

About a year ago, I was doing a tuneup on my friends boat and we put a new cap and rotor on. After the new parts it would not start - just crank. I pulled the coil wire from the cap and had spark. Pulled a plug wire - no spark. We found that the new rotor ahd a manufacturing void which broke down and passed the spark right to the distbributor rotor. Put the old rotor back on and it fired right up.

Yep, that big black burnt soot mark is more than likely the coil's chosen carbon pathway to ground.

if you dont feel like waiting for the replacement, simply get a small wire brush, scrub the heck out of it and wipe it clean with some rubbing alcohol... then after it dries, snap it on and fire it up.

it's also a good "first check" to make if you ever start suffering from a rough idle / backfiring out of the blue.

I suspect that the burn marks were caused by the arcing that happened when you pulled the coil wire. My instincts tell me that you have a weak ground between the distributor body and the battery, but I can't explain it. I am having trouble understanding why it would run with the coil wire arcing, but not with the coil wire in place. The arcing will quickly dirty the contact points in the cap and rotor, but what caused this problem in the first place, except for a bad cap, which I thought had been replaced.


Hmmmm. Try a new cap and rotor, and see if that does it. If it doesn't, try improving the ground to the block.

Take care,
~Chris

How is the spark on the coil?? Is it a weak spark? Did u check the plug on the coil to see if it is loose. It is a weird situation i have never heard of a car only running when you have the cap arcing.

ok, I have had this same exact problem for the longest time and figured it out and finally am clear of it. Its a Grounding problem to the motor and distributor. The distributor is not grounding to the motor and causeing failures to the TFI and the Stator in the distributor. what you need to do is get a new distributor and TFI ( warranty them out if you can ) and where the distributor hold down bolt is wrap a heavy gauge wire to it and bolt it down and them ground it to the negative side of the battery. Make sure you ground it right to the battery. I will 99% gauranttee you problem will be gone. once you did it this way then you can go ahead and replace all the engine grounds and negative battery cable. once the engine dies its 100% that both the stator and TFI are cooked no matter what the parts store says. they fail almost instantly. save yourself the time, gte new parts right off the bat and ground it out at the distributor.. you'll see the difference. then goi ahead and fix the grounds correctly. The may look in good shape but acually are corroded out from the inside out. the can't handle the amp load. good luck!

Waiting for Parts
 

I am still waiting on a Ford Racing Cap and Rotor from Summit. I will plan on running a ground from the distibutor bolt. I don't have money for a new MSD Distibutor. When I first started having problems I bought a used distributor from Colorado Mustang Specialist. I installed a brand new TFI module from Napa when I received my new used distributor. I thought my stator was going bad. When I installed the new used distributor I put my cap and rotor back that were only 6 months old. I didn't think they would be the problem

When doing the extra ground to distributor adjustment bolt would it be ok to ground it to the body of the car. My battery is in the truck of the car and I really don't want run a new wire back there.

I will be real currious if this new rotor and cap will fix the problem. My current rotor has a huge burt crater in it.

With the current rotor being damaged like that, the new cap and rotor should definitely make a difference. The question is, what made the rotor roast like that.

The proper term for that is "carbon tracking" and it happens in high voltage electrical equipment insulation also. One thing that will start the process is if you have a cool night with high humidity air in the distributor cap. You start the car and the engine starts to heat. Well, at some point that high humidity in the cap and condense in the cap or on the rotor or both. This encourages the high voltage to start carbonizing the insulation in a search for a shorter path to ground (through the rotor to the distributor steel shaft). It can also cause cross-fire from one cylinder on the cap to the other across the insulation. Any kind of air void or crack in the plastic rotor or cap created in the molding process will REALLY encourage this to happen too.

as long as you ground it to a good lean chassis ground u should be ok. thats if your cAble negitive is in good shape and grounded well itself.

received my parts today
 

I received a Ford Racing distibutor and rotor for a efi 5.0. It works great. I think some body gave me the wrong distributor before.

I cleared the codes in the car and took it for a spin. The check engine light came on so I pulled KOEO code I received code 63 and code 67.

(63) TP circuit below minimum voltage.

(67) Clutch switch circuit failure

I believe 67 is a problem because I wasn't able to install a wiring connection correctly. I wasn't able to get to the switch that is on top of the transmission. So a mechanic and I installed a manual switch inside the car. I push the switch up to start the car and push the switch down when I am driving. I believed the switch tells the computer to read load. I think what is happening is when I do a KOEO test the ECM is not able to test the switch because it is not hooked up

But I don't know what is going on with the TP circuit. I tested the TP sensor and we thought is was good. May be their is some kind of problem in the return line.

What do you guys think the car likes to back fire. This code 63 has been a reoccuring code for a while.

You could try cleaning the conector with some electric contact cleaner. Other than that, you may have to replace the TPS.

I cleaned the connector.
 

I cleaned the connector like when Jimberg sent me the message to clean all the injector wiring harness and main engine wiring harness.

I have not installed the extra ground wire to the distibutor. I am going to put the extra ground wire this after noon.

Can I test OHMS of resistance of the wires going to the tps. What would those numbers be. I don't want to replace the tps if the wiring is bad. If this is not the right way to go after this approach. Please speak up.

Thankx

Mountain Main

I let the car sit last night
 

The engine wouldn't run.

Okay. I'll go through the procedure to solve code 63 for you.

1) Disconnect the TPS from the vehicle harness.
2) Insert a jumper wire between the green and orange wires in the vehicle side of the TPS connector.
3) Do a KOEO self test.
4) Check for codes 53 or 23 (ignore all other codes at this point).
5) If either code 53 or 23 is present, the TPS is bad, and needs to be replaced.
6) If neither 53 or 23 comes up, unplug jumper.
7) With TPS still disconnected, go to KOEO again, and verify the voltage across the orange and black wires in the vehicle side of the TPS connector is between 4 and 6 volts. Turn ign. off.
8) Unplug ECM 60 pin connector from ECM.
9) Set DMM to 200-Ohms scale.
10) Measure the resistance between the green wire in the vehicle side of the TPS connector, and pin 47 in the 60 pin connector. If reading is 5 ohms or more, repair the open in that circuit.
11) If reading is less than 5 ohms, measure resistance between pin 47 and pins 40, 46, and 60.
12) If any of those read less than 10 k/ohms, repair short circuit.
13) If readings are 10 k/ohms or more, the ECM is bad, and must be replaced
14) After repairing a short or open in a circuit, or replacing the TPS or ECM, reconnect everything, and run a KOEO self test again, to confirm the problem is solved.

Take care,
~Chris

I did the work you said.
 

I did the work you said PKRWUD. I found out that the connection between 47 and the ecm was bad. I was able to glue the connector to the the 60 pin female holder that allows a good connection with the ECM.

I went out and drove the car hard for a half an hour. I took the car back home and ran a KOEO test. I received 67, which is a code for the Neutral Drive switch. I wasn't able to get to the NDS connection on so I have a switch inside the car.

The other code I received was 11. Which was system pass.

Every thing looks good now, but I was driving to work tonight I received a check engine light on. I will see what it says tommorrow

Thanks for the help every one. You guys rock!

Mountain Main