How much slower is a AOD than a T-5

tireburner163 · 11-02-2001, 01:56 PM

On average how much slower is a AOD than a five-speed on stock as well as modded stangs. Is there any difference between early AOD's(1984) and later AOD's(1987-1993). How much slower is a AOD with a 2500-2800 stall than a T-5

------------------
THE SLO PONY
1992 Ford Mustand LX. 2.3 liter four-banger, auto. Future mods: V-8 swap.

Fly it loud, Fly it proud!!!

If it ain't broke, you ain't tryin hard enough

Unit 5302 · 11-02-2001, 07:29 PM

I'm not sure about the differences in the AOD, since I've never really considered owning one.

On average with a good driver the difference is 1/2 a second or so. With an excellent driver, you could be talking 3/4 sec or more. With the converter it'll pick the AOD up two or three tenths. Gears are also required, and a shift kit very much recommended when trying to compete with the 5spds.

Mr 5 0 · 11-02-2001, 09:44 PM

Broad question; every Mustang (and driver) varies but generally speaking; the AOD is anywhere from one-half to a full second slower than a T-5-equipped Mustang 5.0.

An AOD with a 2500-2800 RPM stall converter (along with a shift kit and 4.10 gears) will match or beat a T-5 equipped Mustang 5.0.

in my opinion the T-5 is more fun to drive.

tireburner163 · 11-03-2001, 12:38 AM

Ok if I take a AOD with a 2800 stall, shift kit, and 4.11's. Will it pull on a 5-speed with 4.11's or 3.73's with a good driver

------------------
THE SLO PONY
1992 Ford Mustand LX. 2.3 liter four-banger, auto. Future mods: V-8 swap.

Fly it loud, Fly it proud!!!

If it ain't broke, you ain't tryin hard enough

PKRWUD · 11-03-2001, 12:53 AM

Drivers being equal, you would pull with that combonation if the 5 speed had either sets of gears. A 5 speed w/ 4.10's will either spin the tires or spend too much time shifting, and with a 2800 stall and 4.10's, you would pull hard on a 5 speed w/ 3.73's

Take care,
-Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop

My teams site: Jim Porter Racing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN.

Mach 1 · 11-03-2001, 07:02 AM

I have to disagree totally. An AOD with 4.10 gears, shift kit, 2800 rpm plus stall converter, etc... will still lose to a 5 speed any day of the week.

The AOD sucks up major horsepower to operate, and is not efficient.

Are gears, converter and shift kit going to make up for the lost horsepower required to run the AOD. No way.

------------------
1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT

Mr 5 0 · 11-03-2001, 11:53 AM

Mach I:

The converter is the major source of power loss in the stock AOD and a 2800 RPM stall converter makes up for that (stock stall is 1600 RPM). The shift kit compensates for the AOD's lazy shifting and the 4.10's compensate for the AOD's poor gearing.

I don't know about 'pulling hard' on a 3.73-geared T-5 Mustang (with equal engine power of course) but as a T-5 driver, I would be worried if I were racing an AOD equipped Mustang V-8 with the above aftermarket parts.

That said; every Mustang and every driver is different. This is just an opinion on my part, based on observations over time.
I still think it's easier to just buy or convert to the T-5 and be done with it.

Mach 1 · 11-03-2001, 03:56 PM

Sure, the stock converter is weak, but the transmission itself eats up power. A good converter will help make the automatic/converter combination more efficient, but it still will eat up a lot of horsepower over a 5 speed. A higher stall does not make horsepower?

I have an AOD with all above mentioned mods, and I feel like my car would pick up at least .5 second in the quarter with the 5-speed swap. You can really feel the AOD holding back the motor, at least this is my experience with my combination.

------------------
1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT

silver_pilate · 11-03-2001, 07:26 PM

I totally agree with Mach 1.

In my AOD car, with all of my mods, I still have a hard time beating bolt-on improved 5.0's with T-5's. I feel exactly the same way about my tranny as Mach 1. It's holding my engine back to the tune of at least 1/2 second. And that's with converter, 3.73's and a shift kit.

On the other hand, my car will pull away from any T-5 off the line...but that's it. After that, the AOD takes too much power to turn. The T-5's are getting a good bit more power to the wheels.

Just out of curiosity...how much better would a C-4 be in comparison to a AOD??

--nathan

------------------
'91 GT, 306, 1087 cam, 70mm TB, 76mm MAF, RPM intake, ported Windsor Jr. Irons, headers, Flows, AOD, PI 2800 converter, Transgo kit, and 3.73's. Best ET/MPH: 14.595 @ 94.41 (3400 ft altitude = 13.99 @ 98.54 @ sea level).

Check out my site

Mach 1 · 11-04-2001, 09:14 AM

what the f--- is going on here? AFter I type my lengthy reply, it disapears before I can hit "submit reply". Its happened twice on different posts.

Anyway, a c-4 is much more efficient at transfering power than the AOD, as well as much lighter, but you lose the 4th gear for street duty, which allows lower rear end gears.

------------------
1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT

dinomite · 11-04-2001, 12:58 PM

Mach 1: if you are writing a long reply, before you send it select it all and copy it to the clipboard.

Unit 5302 · 11-04-2001, 04:49 PM

The torque multiplication from a good converter should make up for most of the hp differential between the T-5 and the AOD, which is about 5%. The other thing to consider is the wide ratio between the AOD and the T-5's gearing.

The C-4 is about 2% worse than the T-5, sitting at about 19% loss. Putting on a lighter converter does make the tranny a little more efficient, but probably only a percent or two. (Talking out of my *** a little there)

Jeff Chambers · 11-05-2001, 07:58 AM

I'll jump in and play the devil's advocate here, but the AOD picked my car up to the tune of .51 seconds and more than 3mph over my T5 combination. All other things remained the same except for the addition of a Canton Pro oil pan (which couldn't have accounted for much, if any, HP gain) and the loss of about 100# in the car. As an average for the season, I picked up about six tenths and nearly 5mph which I give the Lentech AOD credit for 90% of that gain. Not only that, but I never missed a shift all season!

------------------
Jeff Chambers
Trophy Stock #3
11.462 Seconds / 117.43 MPH
Chambers Racing Team

Mach 1 · 11-05-2001, 12:14 PM

Im not saying the AOD, or any automatic tranny doesnt have its place in racing, as they clearly do, especially when you start making big power.

If you picked e.t. up with the AOD, great, but for the average guy, its not going to happen. Maybe your engine/chassis combination (how much power are you making?) works better with an auto, or maybe Lentech really has something special with his trannys.

The difference between an AOD and a t-5 is much more than 5%. Unit, where do you dream this crap up? An AOD probably sucks up 25-30 horsepower to operate over and above a 5-speed. If you can make this into 5%, whatever, but 30 horsepower is a big difference, where as 5% doesnt sound like so much.

And how does torque mulitiplication improvments by using a more efficient converter make up for lost horsepower required to turn the AOD internally?

The results speak for themselves. Go to the track and watch the AOD cars get waxed by 5-speed cars with engine power being equal, regardless of AOD tranny mods or rear end gearing. Its easy to armchair quarterback. The AOD is inefficient and uses lots of power. The 5-speed is not. Making the AOD shift quicker and changing gear ratios and converters does not change this. Its an improvement sure, but not enough to hang with the 5-speeds, engine power being equal.

------------------
1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT

Unit 5302 · 11-05-2001, 06:56 PM

Average stock cars on the dyno put down about 175hp with the AOD, and about 185-190 with the T-5. Like I said, about 5%. The general numbers that I've seen indicate about 17% T-5, 19% C-4, and 22% AOD. The more hp you put down, the more you lose.

Jeff Chambers · 11-06-2001, 08:59 AM

The AOD's rotational and internal fluid (pumping & frictional) losses are, for all practical purposes, a fixed amount. Lets assume that its on the range of 20HP. Now for a 200hp motor, this is quite a bit but as you increase the hp the losses become less significant. With the converter locked, my total driveline losses are down around 16-18% with the AOD. With the converter unlocked, its a different story since the slip of the converter comes into the equation. BUT, that converter slip is something that I can control by selecting a different converter. With a relatively loose converter, the car will leave better (1.50-1.51 range for my car) but you pay the price with more losses up until the converter is locked. Go tighter with the converter and you'll gain efficiency in terms of less slip but you may loose stall and multiplication, meaning the car won't leave so well. Its a balancing act, but so is a slipper clutch if you're serious about the ultimate performance of your combination.

What the AOD does buy me with my combination is that it makes my car SOOOOOO much more efficient going downtrack. I'll be the first to admit that I wasn't capable of shifting my T5 at the level that the car was capable of performing. When you're talking about every hundredth of a second being crucial, it was the only choice for me. The car was capable of running alot quicker than I could shift it. Some guys are great, even without pro-shifting a T5, I wasn't. But, I'll put my car up against anyone with the same amount of RWHP, around 325hp, and we'll see who wins the best of ten.

I've swung both ways and I'd much rather be on the AOD side of the plate.

------------------
Jeff Chambers
Trophy Stock #3
11.462 Seconds / 117.58 MPH
Chambers Racing Team

rel3rd · 11-07-2001, 08:02 PM

"waxed by 5 speed cars" ???haha

Been a long time since any 5 speed cars have "waxed" old Barney....

"proud to be featured on LenTech's website as one of "LenTech's Successes"

Bob Lunner (BarneyCar Pilot)

------------------
1986 Mustang LX
YS trim'd AOD car
10.35/133
502rwhp/543rwtq
My "BARNEY" car

[This message has been edited by rel3rd (edited 11-07-2001).]

Unit 5302 · 11-07-2001, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jeff chambers:
The AOD's rotational and internal fluid (pumping & frictional) losses are, for all practical purposes, a fixed amount. Lets assume that its on the range of 20HP. Now for a 200hp motor, this is quite a bit but as you increase the hp the losses become less significant. With the converter locked, my total driveline losses are down around 16-18% with the AOD...

If it is a "fixed amount" you must also equate that your driveshaft is also using power, as is the rear end. So if the AOD itself is costing you (probably 40hp) the rest of the driveline is still costing you power at an increasing rate with the amount of pressure and friction being applied to it. So you are looking at a more complex equation. Maybe (friction = 40 + 0.05hp). The entire driveline will never be as efficient as a T-5. Quite simply, you're spinning significantly more mass, and operating a pump. The T-5 is spinning less mass, and not operating a pump.

Based upon my suggested constant power loss from the AOD equation, which I don't believe the premis of constant power loss with regards to increasing friction is accurate, a 5spd car would need about 400hp to equal things out.

The superior gearing of the 5spd manual would be an asset to place against the AOD's torque converter. Then you can place shift speed in comparison between the two units. The AOD is more accurate and repeatable, but the T-5 isn't much behind. The time lost during a shift can be more than made up for with the proper execution of a powershift. (I generally gain ground on my opponents when I shift). I have a hard time believing the AOD could ever compete on equal terms with a T-5 car (car to car, not including driver).

smallblock · 11-07-2001, 08:45 PM

rel3rd, that's one sweet ride.what done to the tranny besides what you have listed on your site.

Mach 1 · 11-08-2001, 04:19 AM

rel3rd - I think your missing the point here. I said in higher horsepower applications, the Automatic is the way to go, and your clearly making big power. There are advantages to an automatic when making big power that outweigh the disadvantages.

Were talking about mild to stock 5.0's with upgraded AODs (shift kit, converter, etc..) being equal to or better than a 5 speed. I say the 5 speed still has the edge, which is proven on the street and at the track) while others disagree with me.

By the way, your car is awesome. I dont know how your making that much power or running those times with that combination- you are the man!

------------------
1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT

[This message has been edited by Mach 1 (edited 11-08-2001).]

11-02-2001, 01:56 PM	#1
tireburner163 It's a lot like a race car Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Meridian, MS Posts: 4,130	How much slower is a AOD than a T-5 On average how much slower is a AOD than a five-speed on stock as well as modded stangs. Is there any difference between early AOD's(1984) and later AOD's(1987-1993). How much slower is a AOD with a 2500-2800 stall than a T-5 ------------------ THE SLO PONY 1992 Ford Mustand LX. 2.3 liter four-banger, auto. Future mods: V-8 swap. Fly it loud, Fly it proud!!! If it ain't broke, you ain't tryin hard enough

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11-02-2001, 07:29 PM	#2
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	I'm not sure about the differences in the AOD, since I've never really considered owning one. On average with a good driver the difference is 1/2 a second or so. With an excellent driver, you could be talking 3/4 sec or more. With the converter it'll pick the AOD up two or three tenths. Gears are also required, and a shift kit very much recommended when trying to compete with the 5spds.

11-02-2001, 09:44 PM	#3
Mr 5 0 Conservative Individualist Join Date: May 1997 Location: Wherever I need to be Posts: 7,487	Broad question; every Mustang (and driver) varies but generally speaking; the AOD is anywhere from one-half to a full second slower than a T-5-equipped Mustang 5.0. An AOD with a 2500-2800 RPM stall converter (along with a shift kit and 4.10 gears) will match or beat a T-5 equipped Mustang 5.0. in my opinion the T-5 is more fun to drive.

11-03-2001, 12:38 AM	#4
tireburner163 It's a lot like a race car Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Meridian, MS Posts: 4,130	Ok if I take a AOD with a 2800 stall, shift kit, and 4.11's. Will it pull on a 5-speed with 4.11's or 3.73's with a good driver ------------------ THE SLO PONY 1992 Ford Mustand LX. 2.3 liter four-banger, auto. Future mods: V-8 swap. Fly it loud, Fly it proud!!! If it ain't broke, you ain't tryin hard enough

11-03-2001, 12:53 AM	#5
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Drivers being equal, you would pull with that combonation if the 5 speed had either sets of gears. A 5 speed w/ 4.10's will either spin the tires or spend too much time shifting, and with a 2800 stall and 4.10's, you would pull hard on a 5 speed w/ 3.73's Take care, -Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop My teams site: Jim Porter Racing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN.

11-03-2001, 07:02 AM	#6
Mach 1 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,866	I have to disagree totally. An AOD with 4.10 gears, shift kit, 2800 rpm plus stall converter, etc... will still lose to a 5 speed any day of the week. The AOD sucks up major horsepower to operate, and is not efficient. Are gears, converter and shift kit going to make up for the lost horsepower required to run the AOD. No way. ------------------ 1993 GT/AOD '93 Mustang GT

11-03-2001, 11:53 AM	#7
Mr 5 0 Conservative Individualist Join Date: May 1997 Location: Wherever I need to be Posts: 7,487	Mach I: The converter is the major source of power loss in the stock AOD and a 2800 RPM stall converter makes up for that (stock stall is 1600 RPM). The shift kit compensates for the AOD's lazy shifting and the 4.10's compensate for the AOD's poor gearing. I don't know about 'pulling hard' on a 3.73-geared T-5 Mustang (with equal engine power of course) but as a T-5 driver, I would be worried if I were racing an AOD equipped Mustang V-8 with the above aftermarket parts. That said; every Mustang and every driver is different. This is just an opinion on my part, based on observations over time. I still think it's easier to just buy or convert to the T-5 and be done with it.

11-03-2001, 03:56 PM	#8
Mach 1 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,866	Sure, the stock converter is weak, but the transmission itself eats up power. A good converter will help make the automatic/converter combination more efficient, but it still will eat up a lot of horsepower over a 5 speed. A higher stall does not make horsepower? I have an AOD with all above mentioned mods, and I feel like my car would pick up at least .5 second in the quarter with the 5-speed swap. You can really feel the AOD holding back the motor, at least this is my experience with my combination. ------------------ 1993 GT/AOD '93 Mustang GT

11-03-2001, 07:26 PM	#9
silver_pilate DURKA DURKA!! Join Date: Sep 1997 Location: Lubbock, TX...(TX panhandle) Posts: 1,418	I totally agree with Mach 1. In my AOD car, with all of my mods, I still have a hard time beating bolt-on improved 5.0's with T-5's. I feel exactly the same way about my tranny as Mach 1. It's holding my engine back to the tune of at least 1/2 second. And that's with converter, 3.73's and a shift kit. On the other hand, my car will pull away from any T-5 off the line...but that's it. After that, the AOD takes too much power to turn. The T-5's are getting a good bit more power to the wheels. Just out of curiosity...how much better would a C-4 be in comparison to a AOD?? --nathan ------------------ '91 GT, 306, 1087 cam, 70mm TB, 76mm MAF, RPM intake, ported Windsor Jr. Irons, headers, Flows, AOD, PI 2800 converter, Transgo kit, and 3.73's. Best ET/MPH: 14.595 @ 94.41 (3400 ft altitude = 13.99 @ 98.54 @ sea level). Check out my site

11-04-2001, 09:14 AM	#10
Mach 1 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,866	what the f--- is going on here? AFter I type my lengthy reply, it disapears before I can hit "submit reply". Its happened twice on different posts. Anyway, a c-4 is much more efficient at transfering power than the AOD, as well as much lighter, but you lose the 4th gear for street duty, which allows lower rear end gears. ------------------ 1993 GT/AOD '93 Mustang GT

11-04-2001, 12:58 PM	#11
dinomite The Dude Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 1,262	Mach 1: if you are writing a long reply, before you send it select it all and copy it to the clipboard.

11-04-2001, 04:49 PM	#12
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	The torque multiplication from a good converter should make up for most of the hp differential between the T-5 and the AOD, which is about 5%. The other thing to consider is the wide ratio between the AOD and the T-5's gearing. The C-4 is about 2% worse than the T-5, sitting at about 19% loss. Putting on a lighter converter does make the tranny a little more efficient, but probably only a percent or two. (Talking out of my *** a little there)

11-05-2001, 07:58 AM	#13
Jeff Chambers Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Milan, OH Posts: 2,699	I'll jump in and play the devil's advocate here, but the AOD picked my car up to the tune of .51 seconds and more than 3mph over my T5 combination. All other things remained the same except for the addition of a Canton Pro oil pan (which couldn't have accounted for much, if any, HP gain) and the loss of about 100# in the car. As an average for the season, I picked up about six tenths and nearly 5mph which I give the Lentech AOD credit for 90% of that gain. Not only that, but I never missed a shift all season! ------------------ Jeff Chambers Trophy Stock #3 11.462 Seconds / 117.43 MPH Chambers Racing Team

11-05-2001, 12:14 PM	#14
Mach 1 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,866	Im not saying the AOD, or any automatic tranny doesnt have its place in racing, as they clearly do, especially when you start making big power. If you picked e.t. up with the AOD, great, but for the average guy, its not going to happen. Maybe your engine/chassis combination (how much power are you making?) works better with an auto, or maybe Lentech really has something special with his trannys. The difference between an AOD and a t-5 is much more than 5%. Unit, where do you dream this crap up? An AOD probably sucks up 25-30 horsepower to operate over and above a 5-speed. If you can make this into 5%, whatever, but 30 horsepower is a big difference, where as 5% doesnt sound like so much. And how does torque mulitiplication improvments by using a more efficient converter make up for lost horsepower required to turn the AOD internally? The results speak for themselves. Go to the track and watch the AOD cars get waxed by 5-speed cars with engine power being equal, regardless of AOD tranny mods or rear end gearing. Its easy to armchair quarterback. The AOD is inefficient and uses lots of power. The 5-speed is not. Making the AOD shift quicker and changing gear ratios and converters does not change this. Its an improvement sure, but not enough to hang with the 5-speeds, engine power being equal. ------------------ 1993 GT/AOD '93 Mustang GT

11-05-2001, 06:56 PM	#15
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	Average stock cars on the dyno put down about 175hp with the AOD, and about 185-190 with the T-5. Like I said, about 5%. The general numbers that I've seen indicate about 17% T-5, 19% C-4, and 22% AOD. The more hp you put down, the more you lose.

11-06-2001, 08:59 AM	#16
Jeff Chambers Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Milan, OH Posts: 2,699	The AOD's rotational and internal fluid (pumping & frictional) losses are, for all practical purposes, a fixed amount. Lets assume that its on the range of 20HP. Now for a 200hp motor, this is quite a bit but as you increase the hp the losses become less significant. With the converter locked, my total driveline losses are down around 16-18% with the AOD. With the converter unlocked, its a different story since the slip of the converter comes into the equation. BUT, that converter slip is something that I can control by selecting a different converter. With a relatively loose converter, the car will leave better (1.50-1.51 range for my car) but you pay the price with more losses up until the converter is locked. Go tighter with the converter and you'll gain efficiency in terms of less slip but you may loose stall and multiplication, meaning the car won't leave so well. Its a balancing act, but so is a slipper clutch if you're serious about the ultimate performance of your combination. What the AOD does buy me with my combination is that it makes my car SOOOOOO much more efficient going downtrack. I'll be the first to admit that I wasn't capable of shifting my T5 at the level that the car was capable of performing. When you're talking about every hundredth of a second being crucial, it was the only choice for me. The car was capable of running alot quicker than I could shift it. Some guys are great, even without pro-shifting a T5, I wasn't. But, I'll put my car up against anyone with the same amount of RWHP, around 325hp, and we'll see who wins the best of ten. I've swung both ways and I'd much rather be on the AOD side of the plate. ------------------ Jeff Chambers Trophy Stock #3 11.462 Seconds / 117.58 MPH Chambers Racing Team

11-07-2001, 08:02 PM	#17
rel3rd BarneyCar Pilot Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Posts: 217	"waxed by 5 speed cars" ???haha Been a long time since any 5 speed cars have "waxed" old Barney.... "proud to be featured on LenTech's website as one of "LenTech's Successes" Bob Lunner (BarneyCar Pilot) ------------------ 1986 Mustang LX YS trim'd AOD car 10.35/133 502rwhp/543rwtq My "BARNEY" car [This message has been edited by rel3rd (edited 11-07-2001).]

11-07-2001, 08:45 PM	#19
smallblock Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 15	rel3rd, that's one sweet ride.what done to the tranny besides what you have listed on your site.

11-08-2001, 04:19 AM	#20
Mach 1 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,866	rel3rd - I think your missing the point here. I said in higher horsepower applications, the Automatic is the way to go, and your clearly making big power. There are advantages to an automatic when making big power that outweigh the disadvantages. Were talking about mild to stock 5.0's with upgraded AODs (shift kit, converter, etc..) being equal to or better than a 5 speed. I say the 5 speed still has the edge, which is proven on the street and at the track) while others disagree with me. By the way, your car is awesome. I dont know how your making that much power or running those times with that combination- you are the man! ------------------ 1993 GT/AOD '93 Mustang GT [This message has been edited by Mach 1 (edited 11-08-2001).]