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New Best E.T. - Timeslip attached!
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I also got video of the launch...but my camera cut out just before the 10 sec. car passed me. It's nice to know that there's still more in there. I'd like to think that the longtubes helped, but I also think that maybe a taller set of tires would help my MPH. This run was with my JMS chip running the ECU, and I short shifted into 2nd based on feel. I think that my combo makes power in the 3500-5800 rpm range, so if the skies clear up today and I get another shot at it I'm going to set shift points at 5800.
Thanks again to everyone who's helped over the years, especailly PKRWUD!! |
Nice 60' - that's a low ET for that mph.
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Yeah that's why I figured if I went to a taller tire I'd get more MPH. The launch is great but it dies after 80ft every time. I think that I'm moving beyond by RPM range by shifting at over 6K. I really would like to get her on a dyno!
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Nice times! I wish I could get a 60' time that low.
-Ryan |
I wish I could get that MPH up as high as yours
I was lucky in that I got this car from a previous owner minus engine, tranny, and good wiring. He was running 9's at over 145 so there was very little I needed to do with the suspension. |
Yeah with a 393 you'd think you'd be running faster. What gear at what rpm are you going thru the traps at?
-Ryan |
It's a 3-spd C4 so I'm in 3rd at around 5800 at the top end....but I don't know exactly. But when I made that 12.51 I shifted into second a bit lower in the RPM band based on feel. I have a lot of emmissions legal EFI 302 parts on her, including box stock Edlebrock heads, EFI, etc. There's certainly much room for improvement...but since I'm living in Mass. (and barely pass emmissions with cats) I don't want to mess around too much and lose my ability to drive on the street.
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Ohh I see. You'd probably see a nice gain if you got rid of your cats. I know I did. Well you need dyno #'s but I would say going thru at 5800 is probably pretty close to where you want to be. Maybe a little high but you won't know for sure until you get those numbers. But hey keep up the good work at the track!
-Ryan |
Hey Thanks...and YOU keep up the great work for this country!!
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-Ryan |
Dont take my comment as being a jerk cause that is not how it is meant to sound.
You need to get to a dyno ASAP IMO. Your mph tells the whole story, for a 393 stroker it isnt making near the power it should. I know two guys with 393 strokers both around 10 to 1 compression with box stock edelbrock heads, solid roller cams and a trick flow intake. Where I race the altitude often is around 5000ft. One of them runs a 10.86 @ 123 on motor. The other one wich is really mild runs a 11.92 @118mph on motor. I would almost bet the cam is a tooth off or something. |
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Thanks guys but wouldn't a tall tire (which I have) make a difference?
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Would a car with a cam off a tooth turn a 1.6 60ft time? Take a look at the timeslip...it seems that I run out of power after 80ft. I figured small heads, and a small intake were the cause. I would love to get her on the dyno though.
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I am not saying that your cam is a tooth off it is just my best guess. Yes a car with a cam that is a tooth off can still turn a good 60ft.
What RPM were you crossing at? A 12.51 is quick but something just isnt right with your mph:confused: Dyno that bad boy and lets figure this out.:D Your car should be well capable of 114mph |
Yeah...something isn't right but there isn't any dyno's local. I'd have to drive at least a couple hours and that would torture my 3 spd C4....I can't imagine making that tranny work so hard for so long. I often wonder if I should have went with the more street friendly 6 speed. Hindsight is always 20/20 :-)
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I finally got my RPM's at the finish line...and I am a bit surprised. I crossed at 5200 RPM's doing 103 mph. I see 5.0's on juice doing high 11's....and I'd like to get my car into the low 12's on motor. Outside of a dyno...what can I do to make more power??
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your heads are certainly the bottleneck of it all, but even so you should be getting a ton more mph than that. Hell, with GT40P heads on my 347 (huge bottleneck) I trapped 112mph. You've got better flowing heads, and 46 more cid!
Are you aware of where the timing is? Even if it is off a few degree's of where it "likes it" you will lose a lot of power. Have you read your plugs after a run to check how its running? Another thing to consider is your torque converter. I helped build a car with a C4 recently, and the thing made a ton of torque down low, but just wouldn't pull up high. Well, we put it on a dyno and noticed that it made a peak of 350ft-lbs of torque at only 2800rpm (and was still climbing hard, ie, steep graph) but then the converter was crapping out and not allowing it to push any more power through. Just another possibility. |
Agreed, somethings WAY wrong. You should be running 116-120mph with that motor, your WAY down on HP, like 100 off. Time to start investigation.
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I think that what is wrong is I went to mild on my setup becuase I wanted to make sure I could get a sticker. Let's take a look into the parts I have. With a 302 intake, 302 heads, and crossing the traps at a measly 520 RPM's, how could I possibly expect to make the type of power that is needed to run 120 MPH?? I think that when I built her I was focused too much on passing emissions. I'm happy to have a sticker and run 12's, rather than run 11's and have to trailer the car. But I'd like to think that I could get more out of what I have without spending thousands on Victor heads and Victor 5.8 EFI setup.
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how do you have a 302 intake on a 351 block?
even so, the 302 heads and intake should have your car making a ton more power. We're not saying that it could make more power with better parts, we're saying it should be making more power even with the stuff you currently have. Something just doesn't add up |
I went 109mph with similar parts on a 302. Something is ascew.
Skyler |
Jeez...where do I start? Timing?
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It's the upper manifold that is for the 302...the lower plenum is for the 351 truck...both made by edelbrock. Maybe that's where I should start??
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Well a few questions on this...
A. where is your fuel pressure set at? B. timing set currently C. did i read that you still have cats on this car? If so they need to BOUNCE! D. I aggree with these guys on the cam issue being a tooth off. you will probably see great low end and crappy high end if thats the case. due you have a Air fuel ratio gauge on this car? With 30lb injectors that should be ok , but maybe your running lean? A dyno would tell all, but definetly something doesn't sound right. a 393 should blow the doors off of everything. Also what TBI size do u have? |
Give us every detail on your setup so we can pick it apart and see what you need to attack.
-Skyler |
Those heads usually like alot of timing.
15 degrees of timing is worth exactly 100 horsepower in my car. Thats where I'd look first. Andy |
I think many of us agree that there is a timing issue for sure... I would check the base timing and see how she runs.
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My engine builder set the timing about 25 degrees too advanced initially (I knew becasue I heard a pinging/ratling noise @ WOT). So I brought it to another guy who set the base timing back to 10 degrees (where JMS wanted it at - the chip is supposed to take it from there). The real problem is that I don't know how to time the engine myself, but it's time for me to learn. If you guys are really going to help me, than I'll go buy a timing light and follow your instructions. For the specs on the setup...see below:
MAF - Pro-M 75mm TB - BBK 70mm Performer RPM upper Performer heads (untouched-2.02/1.60) 351W lower manifold 42 psi @ WOT MSD 6AL box 3500 stall converter (Dynamic Racing) C4 Roller Myte (Dynamic Racing) |
Wow 25 degrees, That is crazy... how long was it running like that with that timing? 25 degrees will definetly damage the engine...
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Not very long at all....we just estimated that it was advanced about 25 degrees too high. It was never ran down the track like that. But here's where I stand now. I'm attaching a pic of the timing pointer for starters. See, when my engine builder timed the engine, he used the half-circle as a reference (See "A"). When I brought her to the other guy, he could tell that it was too far advanced and that we used the half circle as a reference point. He then told me that I needed to use the top of the pointer as reference point. I just checked the timing (set the dial to 10 degrees) and the black mark on my harmonic balancer appeared at the spot I marked (See the "B" above the "A"). What's that mean? Is the timing retarded?
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if i remeber correctly where the numbers are thats high timing... 20's or 30s.. of course you have to remove the timing spout connector to adjust your timing and check it. what numbers is it pointing to on timing plate?
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If I remember correctly, we painted the black stripe on the balancer at 10 degrees. Was I correct in saying that you take reference at the top of the timing pointer, and not at the half circle (point "A" on the jpeg)??
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What size injectors? What injectors is your maf calibrated for? Do you have any weird bents from a fender coldair setup or anything infront of the maf? What exhaust setup do you have?
I would pull the chip. Set your timing with the spout out at 16 deg initial. Get one of the aftermarket lower 351 intakes, TFS makes one, and a couple other people do as well. I could be wrong, but that truck lower is probably KILLING you. Anything else your leaving out? Skyler |
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Yes, you read the timing marks at the flat spot on the pointer, not the circle. If your engine builder didnt know that, I'm afraid of what else he didnt know.
The fact is, from a performance standpoint, your combo is a little mis-matched. But since you built this to still be emissions legal, your 393 probably wont run like most everybody elses. All in all, I think you are doing pretty good. The only reason I suggested verifying the timing, is that its the easiest thing to check and the best place to start. There could be several things wrong with your times. It could be as simple as changing drivers. How many times have you gone down the 1/4? Are you sure you ran the car out past the last set of cones? Its a dumb question I know, but lots of people get confused on their first few passes. Did you ever tell is what cam is in it? Or did I miss that. Andy |
Injetors are FRPP 30 lb...MAF is calibrated for them. I'm running the BBK Cold Air kit, and it should be noted that the opening to the TB is smaller in diameter than the TB actually is. Therefore, the BBK Cold Air Intake pipe actually fits inside the TB. Yes, I'm losing a bit of airflow there on an already restricted setup but it seems my only alternative is a Anderson-type pipe which sucks hot air from the engine in (seems a bit counterproductive to me). Exhaust is longutbe Mac Headers with a 3" collector going into a BBK H-pipe w/cats removed going into Flowmaster 2 chamber (small) mufflers...all 2 1/2". Will a 3" exhasut help?
Only other thing that I think we're not talking about is tire size....won't tire size directly effect my MPH and gear ratio?? Quote:
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As far as my experience goes, I've made maybe 15 passes total, and I stay right in it until I see the winning light turn on. My 60ft times are that of a 10 second car, the car lifts the front driver's wheel slightly off the ground w/out the t-brake, but if you look at the timeslip I fall off after the 1/8th mile. Regarding the cam, it's almost the exact spec as a FRPP "Z" cam. The specs are not exact but they are very close to the Z cam. I'm also running a non-roller setup because I have an older block and didn't have the $$ in my budget for the conversion kit.
So based on the mark "B" on the jpeg....is my timing off? The mark "B" is where the black line (painted at the 10 degree mark on the balancer) shows up under the timing light. Seems like I'm a bit off based on the fact I need to line up above the "B" mark (at the flat point of the timing pointer). Quote:
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Tire size has a small effect on gear ratio. Gear ratio isnt the problem here. HP production is. GET a good intake. Get rid of any bents infront of the maf, and put a K&N air filter right on the end of it. yes it pulls some hot air, but bends in front of the maf can screw things up. DITCH THE CHIP. Get to somewhere that can set your timing properly, it shouldnt be that hard.
I have a 4.6L motor, smog legal, stock heads/cams, and Im confident it runs very very low 12's. Skyler |
OK...so that's a new lower 351W manifold, and an upper intake as well. How about the Edelbrock Victor 5.8 intake??
Do you suggest getting a Anderson Ford-type intake pipe, instead of the BBK fender mount to eliminate the bends?? Ditching the chip sucks because the car won't idle without it, and it sputters badly under part throttle as well. I want to make power, but to sacrifice my driveability would suck bigtime. Is there any other guys on this forum with a similar setup that are not running any chip? Back to timing, based on the reference "B" in that jpeg, am I even at 10 degrees yet?? The black mark on the balancer isn't at the top of the timing pointer... |
I feel like there is way to many mixed matched parts happening here. First, get a new UPPER AND LOWER.. The Victor 5.8 fine, secondly, get the bbk fenderwell cold air intake, it will work great I use it myself. Reset your Timing at 16 degrees. You said h-pipe with cats or without? If you have cats, GET RID OF THEM, they will kill you the most. if everything is up tp par, you shouldn't have idleing issues. Check you ignition too, Run a separite Ground Strap from the battery to the Distributor hold down nut and see if she smooths out.. I has crazy problems with a bad ground cable that looked to be in mint shape. They corrode from the inside out. Ignition coil too, check that. when you pull the chip, is your idle set properly? I think A complete look over is needed, maybe get second opinions or a local guy to help you out. Your engine biulder mighty know how to build a block but know $hit about getting it to work with the components. Thats my guess.....
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I just helped a friend with his 393 stroker and we put a Trick Flow R upper and lower intake on it. The quality and the price of the intake was awesome
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Cats ae gone...already have the BBK cold air intake in the fenderwell...but I was just told to get rid of it because the MAF doesn't like bends before the meter.....which way should I go? If I get the new intake, won't that be mismatched with the heads??
Can you explain how I set the timing to 16 degrees with a dial timing light? Based on the pic I attached yesterday, is my timing currently set to 10 degrees?? I set the dial to 10, and the black mark on my damper showed up at the mark I labeled "B" in the pic. I just need help figuring out where my timing is before I go screwing around with it. thanks Quote:
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What else is in his setup?? What's he running for ET's and MPH??
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With the spot off set the dial to 16 degrees, then match it to 16 degrees on the plate.. your running preformer head to the Intake will be just fine. i don't see any issues with the victor Jr intake.
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Edelbrock victor junior heads port matched. 600 lift cam 224 duration Trick flow R intake. 1 3/4 long tube headers We only have a 65mm throttle body on there right now with 2 1/2 exhaust and it dynoed. 420 RWHP 460 RWTQ. After its broke in we will upgrade to a 75mm TB and 3 inch exhaust. No track times yet we just finished it Monday. |
First of all, MSD does not recommend dial-back type timing lights when timing engines that use their ignition boxes.
The flat spot on the very top of the pointer is where you want to read the timing number at. If I understand you correctly "B" on your picture is 10 degrees BTDC. If your black mark on your balancer ("B" on your picture) was at that place on the pointer when you were checking timing, I'd say your timing is about 14 degrees BTDC. Thats probably too much with your chip. Of course I cant be certain of anything since you are using that dial back light. You have the best mail order chip out there, however I would like to see you disconnect it once, set your timing to 36 degrees, leave the spout out, and see how it runs. As for having bends before the MAF, that can be compensated for by rotating the MAF itself. I have found 8 horsepower on the chassis dyno by doing nothing but rotating the mass air meter 90 degrees. Andy |
Get a new intake. Find a local tuner that can burn you a good custom chip on a dyno. That will tell A LOT.
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THanks for letting me know about MSD...I'll return that light and get the older style ASAP.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by andy669 First of all, MSD does not recommend dial-back type timing lights when timing engines that use their ignition boxes. Should I be pulling the chip when I check for timing?? [QUOTE]Originally posted by andy669 The flat spot on the very top of the pointer is where you want to read the timing number at. If I understand you correctly "B" on your picture is 10 degrees BTDC. If your black mark on your balancer ("B" on your picture) was at that place on the pointer when you were checking timing, I'd say your timing is about 14 degrees BTDC. Thats probably too much with your chip. Of course I cant be certain of anything since you are using that dial back light. You have the best mail order chip out there, however I would like to see you disconnect it once, set your timing to 36 degrees, leave the spout out, and see how it runs. NEver knew that...thanks for the info!! When you say rotate 90, do you mean rotate the MAF towards the block? Quote:
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Yes, I understand that but it won't be cheap...here's some estimates that I put together quickly:
New lower intake and upper plenum - $600 (appx) Tow to the nearest dyno facility in Conneticut - $250 Custom burned chip - ($200 - appx) Dyno pulls ($100??) What do you expect for results if I dump another grand into this car? 11's??? Quote:
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