Odd...
 

Well, I haven't posted here with a problem in a looooong time!! Very long time!(Lucky me) But it was bound to happen! I'll try to explain.

I was driving to Staples today to get some cd-r's and all was fine, the car was running great, even got into it a little with another Stang, it was running normally, all was well.
I went into Staples, I was in there for about 20 mins, having my ear talked off from the guy behind the register about how nice my car was, and that the red Trans-Am I parked next to was his, and what he's doing, what I've done so far, blah, blah, blah... Finally he rings me up and I'm on my merry way.
I get in, start it up, back out of the space, go to pull around the corner by the front of the store, and go to nail it a little(show off), and as soon as I hit it, it bogs down real bad seeming like it stalled. As soon as I let off the gas it idled fine, and as long as I didn't give it more than 25% throttle, it wouldn't bog, ran normal. I pulled over and opened the hood while it was running. (far away from staples, might I add ;) ) I give it full throttle under the hood, and it revved flawlessly, so I get back in thinking it was a freak occurrance, and as soon as I start to drive, I hit it again and it does it again.
The fuel pressure was fine, the volts were fine, the temp was fine, and vaccuum was fine. It did smell a little rich, I believe, when it happened. I don't have my ScanTool with me so I never hooked it up to the computer, I'll get it tomorrow...
Any thoughts, guesses??

Here's what I got from the computer:
KOEO:
34 EGR Valve position sensor voltage out of limits
67 neutral drive switch, neutral gear switch, neutral pressure switch, clutch switch, manual lever position, or air conditioner clutch.

KOER:
94 thermactor air system... right side
44 problems in the thermactor air system


I drove it today, and it was running fine while it was cold (open loop?) and then when it warmed up, it did it again, but not so bad, it wouldn't always do it, only sometimes you could feel it miss/stumble under hard acceleration. I always get those codes, so that doesn't really help me.
Any thoughts?????????? :confused: :confused:

Maybe your EGR valve is open when it shouldn't be (under acceleration)?

Just a thought...

I had the same situation, trying to show off and the thing just falls flat on its face.

The only thing I've found out that it could be is the Fuel pump cutoff (inertia) switch. Its in the very rear of your hatch (my trunk), and it shuts fuel pressure off upon an accident.

Some people say that over time, the rumbling and droning of aftermarket exhaust can damage the switch and when you accelerate quickly, it thinks that you are getting rear ended and it shuts your fuel pressure off.
Now, the whole truth to this, I am unsure of, but its something to take into consideration.

good luck hunting it down,
-Drew

still doin it, it was really bad a bit ago... runs fine when it's under 25% throttle but anything more and it dies... smells really rich but the air fuel gauge doesn't rise and the fuel pressure doesn't go any higher than normal.
I pulled the egr vaccuum off and noticed there is hardly any vaccuum there, should it be higher?
I checked the switch, all is well.... any other thoughts??

would the TFI module do that?

did you try driving it w/ the egr disconnected and plugged?

Take care,
-Chris

not yet, i'll try today!

well the egr made no difference... here is a vid showing how bad it stumbles when i give it gas. It smells really rich when it happens, but the fuel pressure isn't rising more than normal nor the a/f ratio...
http://www.joe4speed.com/badstang.MOV

God I hate quicktime, how do i make this a mpeg file???

Sounds alot like a carbed engine w/ a bad accelerator pump. Hmmmm. Try running it with the SPOUT connector out, and see if there's a difference.

Take care,
-Chris

This sounds similar to a problem we had with my friends car. It would run like you are describing ( smelling really rich, stumbles when you give it gas) and it turned out to be the fuel pump on his car. One day it finally didn't have enough pressure at all to run the car. just my .02
Dave

Ran it with the spout connector off, no difference, ran it with the tps unplugged, no difference, ran it with the MAF disconnected, no difference...
What the hell could this be??????????
It revs fine as long as i don't give it more than 25% throttle???????????? as soon as i push the throttle past that it stumbles and it even backfired a tad through the intake today.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :confused:

Ok here's the deal... I disconnected the battery to reset the computer (for shits and giggles), and when i connected it, it ran 80% better. it revs now with just a tiny miss when you first floor it. When I took it out for a test drive, under full load at full throttle, I could still feel the miss but it was accelerating, unlike before when it would just die. Why would the computer do this??

The car needs a tuneup, I know... the sparkplugs have some good miles on them, I suppose later I'll take them out and see what they look like, could this have that kind of effect on my problem?

WHAT IS IT!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

AGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You said you always have those codes. 94 & 44 are r & l side thermactor failure. you yanked it anyway, so those are to be expected. 67 is probably your clutch switch. Does it work properly? 34 means either your EGR valve isn't seated all the way, or there's a problem with the EVP sensor, which is what tells the ECM where the EGR is. The EGR should always be closed at WOT, but if it's inable to close completely, you would get a miss. I'd pull the EGR off and inspect it. Make sure it's clean, and that it seats properly. Also check the electrical connector for the EVP.

Which codes are common?

Take care,
-Chris

well they're all pretty common... I always get the thermactor... I started getting the clutch one after the MAF conversion, and the egr one has been with me for a long time too, on and off, but it's never run like this before!

what do the plugs look like?

Try forcing it again like in the video, but create a vacuum leak and tell me if it gets better/worse/stays the same

Take care,
-Chris

Also, separate #5 & #6 farther apart. It looks like they're too close near the cap, and on the way to the plugs, too.

I had a similar problem. Trying to show off when the car bogged and missed. It got worse and worse and was the fuel pump.
Once I replaced it the car ran great.
You might want to look at the fuel delivery if you have not already.
Hope you find the problem.
Mike

OK it made no difference when I made a vaccuum leak, it just idled rougher, that's about it.
Here is a pic of the EGR... pretty clogged.... You think this can be a problem??

Joe, you know there's no guarantee, but that EGR looks about as bad as they get. I'd replace it. If anything is preventing it from closing, it's like a constant vacuum leak, except it doesn't go away at higher rpms. You may be the proud owner of a multiple problem car, so let's fix what we know is bad, like that EGR.

Did you separate your #5 & #6 wires?

Take care,
-Chris

well i cleaned it, and seperated the wires, but it's still pretty shitty, seems a little worse when i seperated the wires, actually! :( How much vaccuum should I be getting at the EGR line? It seems like hardly anything.
I haven't looked at the plugs yet, I have to go to work soon. :(I suppose I'll get another EGR valve this weekend.


it's just so weird, it's been running perfectly until that day! Weird...

*raises hand* "Hi, I'm Joe, I own a multiple problem Mustang!" *clapping*

Joe, you've done a great job with video clips and pictures, but without actually being there, I'm half blind too. Could be a problem with your 10 pin, but I can't glance at that. Know what I mean?

Okay, here's the "by the book" way to check your egr:

1) Disconnect Idle Air Bypass valve
2) Disconnect and plug hose at EGR
3) Connect a hand vacuum pump to the EGR
4) Start engine.
5) Apply 5-10" to vacuum hose

If engine becomes unstable or engine stalls, EGR valve is functioning properly.

6) Reconnect idle air bypass connector.
7) Connect vacuum pump toEGR vacuum supply hose
8) Ensure engine is at normal operating temp.
9) Start engine and increase idle speed to 1500-2000 rpms.

Vacuum gauge on pump should read 5". If it doesn't, you have a problem. If it does, the EGR system is fine.

Take care,
-Chris

I guess EVP, TPS, .................or is your MAP sensor toast or the vacuum line disconnected, sometimes when you quick rap the motor that short vacuum line(s) from under the intake can come undone or worse yet crack, allowing a vacuum leak that you can't see or find. i also was thinking TFI, but those usually always fail to the point the car won't start, let alone run WOT.

How about engine grounds? Also, do you have a chip that may have failed and screwed up timing big time?

02's okay?

FPR vacuum lines good?

Pump could be shot, only good for lower rpm use, when you get into it on the road there is a load on the car, unlike just flat revving it under the hood, this could make a bad pump look good, know what i mean?

lol ohhhh man... this could be a long haul, huh??
One thing I've learned about my particular Mustang, is that it's never the easy way out!!!!:rolleyes:
Don't ya hate the problems where you have to replace everything to figure it out!?!? I've done this a couple times on this car!!!

Well, I'm at my g/f's house, she's out like a light, so I probably won't get to this tomorrow, I'm off mon and tue and figure I'll be all over it.. but unfortunately, funds are limited, so buying every other part is gonna take a bit!! I think we've all been there!! :)
I really appreciate all your help guys! I'd be breaking out the hammer by now! ;)

I'm soooo glad I have other means of transportation, even if it's a GM or rice burner! ;)

Joe. do the basics first. you got fuel pressure right? what is your gauge reading? you never stated what the fuel pressure is. it sounds like a fuel pump. do a pressure reading. is it to spec? let mr know.

oh and more info for you. whenever you work on ANY Ford, remember KOEO codes FIRST!!!! ignore KOER codes! you MUST fix the KOEO codes first! ignore the code 67. did you have it in gear when you did the KOEO self test? ignore the EVR code as well. Fords are known for bad EGR sensors. only ignore these for your case.

now i dont believe it is the EGR at all. why? cause it did it all of the sudden. sounds like a plugged exhaust, right? not likely with a h-pipe. spark? could be. check to make sure the timing change hasnt jumped since i assume it has 160k on it!. i have seen many Ford distributors go bad in my day. the top part of the dis. (shutter) comes loose off the shaft and moves, therefor screws up the timing. i have enclosed a pic. try to turn it(gently) it should move a little bit both ways, but shouldnt move more than 1/4". something like that. usually a TFI module causes a no start or a stall. check your distributor cap for carbon tracking.

i say check the fuel pressure. if is correct change the fuel filter. if not that, check your dis. cap. if that is not it, check the distributor like i shown. good luck!

p.s. a plugged egr with an h-pipe wouldnt cause the vehicle not to rev past 2500 rpm. poor idle, bad fuel econmy, hesitation would happen, but the car would still rev past 2500 rpms

well the fuel pressure never goes below 38psi and a lttle over 40 psi at wot, even when it's stumbling bad. So I don't think it's starving for fuel, even though it sounds like it, but it still smells rich when it happens, but A/F doesn't go higher than normal WOT reading, and no black smoke out the exhaust, or very, very little.

I will check the dist. for play later today, I know there is some carbon buildup, but not that bad really, and the first thing I thought of was the timing chain. It was changed (I believe) at 87,000 miles, but it's probably due again. GRRRRRR!! Is there any way to check that without disassembly? But it idles fine, and revs fine unless you give it more than 25% throttle!! weird, I could drive it all day and it would be fine, if I babied it.

I will still get an EGR because it definitely needs it, might as well replace the bad stuff while I'm at it! ;)

Joe. by any chance does this car have Cali. emissions? Check the Mass air Flow sensor if it does.
yes their is a way to check timing chain wear without disassembly. what you do is put the timing marking on TDC (0). with the distributor cap off, move the crank pulley by hand SLOWLY and watch the distributor rotor and see how much it moves. what i mean is if you move the crank pulley 7 degrees and the distributor rotor hasnt moved yet, then you have some wear. shouldnt be more than 5 MAX! next thing to do to see if you have a jumped chain is do a compression check. or put it on TDC #1 and see where the distributor rotor is pointing. i should be pointing smack dab on #1 on the distributor cap. oh make sure the KEY IS OFF when you do these tests just to remind you! couple of times i forgot! DOH!:eek:

As for the EGR, i hear ya. it needs replacement.

Joe i totally forgot to mention something. Ford has problems with there stock fuel pressure regulators. sometimes the they stick or the diaphram inside gets a pinhole and the engine sucks gas through the vacuum line for the fuel pressure regulator. pull off the hose and see if gas spits out. i had many Ford cars do this same thing as your car did with this problem. if this part was bad, you would have a VERY rich running symptom. do you?

The car has MAF because I did a conversion a couple years ago.... and the FPR is a paxton aftermarket one and there is no gas coming out...! :(
I will have to check out the timing situation! Thanks for all the input, you guys definitely rock!

Here are the plugs... a little white, but for the miles that are on them, they look good.
I have to wait for my days off (Mon and Tue) to dig in...

since you have mass air, did you check you mass air sensor? the plugs look like normal wear to me.

Just a shot in the dark, but maybe a bad fuel injector? Just remember a friend that had sort of the same problem and it turned out that he was having issues with a injector. But then again you said it got better when you reset the computer....hmmmm I wish i could help more!!!

good luck tho

vande

I would have to agree with vande97, except for the fact it runs good when cold. If it was a fuel injector problem, it would run worse when cold.

It does sound a lot like my friend's bad injector experience, but also a lot like a BAP sensor problem too. Problem is, it's active in open loop.

I'll keep my head working on this one, also, a fuel pump would have a tendancy to show up after running for a while, and on a rev you'll never get the fuel useage as you will under power. It could still be a fuel pump even showing good pressure. If they are getting weak, the problem will show up after running for a while usually.

hmmmmm... so many options!!!!

Where to start...
Well the fuel pump is a 190lph FMS unit, about 3 years old, the injectors are also FMS 19 lb the same age, and the Mass air is about 2 years old. The BAP has never been replaced... but you know, after I said that it was running good cold, it decided that it wasn't gonna have any part of that, so it runs the same all the time, just runs worse, it seems, when it's warmed up.
How can I tell if it's a fuel injector?
or the pump?
or the mass air!!!??? LOL

You should of gone to office depot. not staples.


Tough problem, My efi 460 in my truck did almost the same thing, ended up being the cat. converters broke apart and clogged the exhausts. Gave the egr code too. But,Sounds like a fuel delivery problem. when was the last time you changed your filter? Also, are you checking the pressure while you driving it(putting a load on the motor. I think if it was timing, it would spit and pop, and do it when reving the motor too.

I just watched that video, I'd swear it looks like your tps is bad. You said in an earlier reply, that when you disconnected the tps it made no difference, If the TPS was bad, it wouldnt make a difference if you disconnected it, because it was bad.:confused:

This sounds a lot like the problems I'm having (see post "Complete loss of power.."). Only difference is that you have a trouble code for the EGR. It sure sounds like the EGR valve could be sticking open. The EVP is easy to test with a VOM, and you can test the EGR with a vac pump.

I can relate to your frustration. If you find out what's causing it, please post it.

Just to help rule out an injector problem, you may want to do the cylinder balance test (easy to do and doesn't cost anything).

well
 

Find out yet?

Re: well
 

LOL thanks for askin.. I had a really busy weekend (my weekends are mon and tue) so I haven't got to it yet!!! LOL

This week i will be getting to it, though! :)
Thanks alot for your concern! :) :)

TPS reading was at 1.10 throttle shut and 4.83 throttle fully open, steady climb all the way up...
now it's at .97

Well... I did the cylinder balance test, and it was fine, so no worries there. I noticed when I'm driving it that the a/f gauge goes rich at 25% throttle, and now notice when I rev it that there is in fact black smoke that comes out when you first rev it. It never did that before! What causes a rich condition?
koeo codes were 11 and cont mem was 34 as usual
koer codes were the same as always: 94 and 44
Could the O2's be clogged? they're about as old as the egr...6 yrs old.
I have to jack it up and take them out, I've developed a black widow problem under the car though, so i'm gonna spray like mad before i go under there!!! :eek:and it's been soooo slow at work, I havent been able to get parts I need! :mad:

Instead of pulling the O2's, there are a couple easy voltage tests you can do on them to see if they are working correctly. If you don't have a copy of the book "Ford Fuel Injection & Electronic Engine Control", by Charles Probst, I'd deffinitely pick one up. It covers how to test nearly all sensors on your motor. It's the best money I've spent, and has more than paid for itself by letting me avoid replacing perfectly good sensors I thought were bad.

There may be a newer version of the book out.

I still think that you and I are in the same boat with the problems we're having. I'm beginning to think it's more of a timing issue - not enough/no advance. This could create a temporary rich condition when you're reving it. It also would be a problem that could come on suddenly.

I need to go borrow my friends timing light and see whats up there too! I'll post results! :)

i had the same problem on two of my mustangs, and 89 and my 95, a buddy of mine had the same prob. on his 90. find someone with a mass air that works, that was the problem with all of mine. it would rev fine part throttle but when you would give it about half throttle it would fall on its face. it almost acts like its reading full throttle when the gas is only at 1/4 throttle. that would be the first thing i would check, from my past experiances. hope that helps.

OK Finally I figured out how to convert it to an Mpeg file!
Let me know if it works!
The vid of the engine stumbling:
http://www.joe4speed.com/badstang.mpg

since your getting really rich at part throttle, and your tps is set ok, i would check the mass air. i have had many go bad in the past and they acted the same way yours is. it moves out better at part throttle, then when you move the throttle past a certain point it falls on its face. im telling you just try it, switch it with someone elses thatyou know works. youll thank me (i hope) lol

Switched the mass air sensor out with a friends that runs good, and it made no difference.
As of yet, work has been realllly slow so I haven't had a chance to buy a new egr or o2 sensors.
Here is a vid of the gauges inside the car:
Click here!

I need a gun!
 

GRRRRR!!!!


Well, I replaced the EGR valve and sensor today to no avail. The car ran like $hit the moment I started it and drove it around the block, and, frustrated, I floored it in the carport and let it bog itself down till it died. Now it won't start at all, but it smells really rich, so maybe it's flooded. The fuel pressure is good, even when it's bogging so I don't think it's the pump or filter or FPR. (although there is some black smoke when it does bog (rich)) It drives perfect till you hit the gas past 1/4 throttle. and even then sometimes it runs perfect even when you floor it. but 98% of the time it just bogs, and misses really bad.

WHAT AM I GONNA DO?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Especially now that it won't start!

Well it started so it must have been flooded. God it runs like ****. How can it be so rich when it's showing normal on the fuel pressure and a/f gauge???