grr...starting problems..any ideas?

Frankenstang65 · 06-25-2003, 04:30 PM

So here is the deal. For the last 6-8 months, I've been fighting with starting problems with the 351W in my '65. When the car is cold, or only mildly warm it'll start up like a champ...it'll fire on the first couple of clicks. My problem is that when the car is at operating temperature (as in I've driven 3 or 4 miles and then shut it down) the car will not restart. It cranks REALLY slowly, especially at first, and usually will speed up a little bit...but still will not start untill after it has 30 or so minutes to cool (not vapor locked either, getting plenty of fuel). I really can't figure this out, I'm really disapointed because I just finished putting the motor back in the car after being out for months, and the problem is still there even with a ton of new parts.

Here's what has changed: The entire top end (alum heads, comp cam, cobra rockers, pushrods, intake, etc), Starter, Starter solenoid, battery, all the cables, plug wires, distributor, coil, plugs, etc. - Pretty much everything that has to do with starting, and a bunch of stuff that doesn't. Yet, the problem remains unchanged.

What am I overlooking??? Could there be something wrong with the engine internally that is causing it to "bind up" when it gets warm? (keeping in mind that it runs PERFECT when it does start...lol..no knocks or funny noises) I didn't do anything with the short block when the motor was out, but upon looking at it, there didn't seem to be anything out of order (the bolts were tight, no extra slop between the rods and crank,etc- it looked solid).

Any advice ideas would be greatly appreciated...soooo frustrating to not be able to drive the car anywhere after all the time I've spent on it.

Thanks!!

mustangII460 · 06-25-2003, 07:08 PM

First thing that pops in my mind is timing. Try warming it up again, then crank while someone moves the distributor a little. See if that changes anything.

Also if your compression went up with your rebuild, your stock starter may not be up to par, especially after its warm. I use a late model starter in my old Bronco with a 1,000 cranking amp battery.

hobgoblin351 · 06-25-2003, 08:17 PM

I'm having the same problem. I've ruled out the starter. I'm running 10.25/1 compression so I got one of those high torque jobs and it kicks butt. Not the timing, and it's getting fuel. I'm thinking the coil is getting hot and is the weak link. It's mounted to the manifold. I'm going to try a heat wrap, to help insulate it. Then maybe move it to the firewall of the fender apron. With the headers things get pretty hot under the hood, and thats the last thing I can think of whose preformance would be effected by the temp.

PKRWUD · 06-26-2003, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hobgoblin351
I'm having the same problem. I've ruled out the starter. I'm running 10.25/1 compression so I got one of those high torque jobs and it kicks butt. Not the timing, and it's getting fuel. I'm thinking the coil is getting hot and is the weak link. It's mounted to the manifold. I'm going to try a heat wrap, to help insulate it. Then maybe move it to the firewall of the fender apron. With the headers things get pretty hot under the hood, and thats the last thing I can think of whose preformance would be effected by the temp.

The coil has absolutely nothing to do with the speed at which the starter spins the engine.

Frank-
You need another new starter. You probably bought a rebuild, and they didn't do a very good job. The battery is a possibility, except that it would be hard cold, too. That leaves the battery cables, which you said are new, Have you verified the quality of the ground connections? Your neg. cable does bolt to the block, right? Is it a clean connection? If it is, and the battery is good, and the cables are new, it's the starter.

Take care,
~Chris

Frankenstang65 · 06-26-2003, 11:24 PM

Another NEW starter??....lol...you sound pretty confident, so I'll give it a try. Been really beating my head against the wall on this one, hopefully that'll solve it.

I'll double check all my connections tonight, but I'm 98% sure that they are all clean and tight. And yes, the battery is only 5 days old, so I'm almost positive that it couldn't be the weak link.

A friend of mine suggested the possibilty of the carb leaking fuel into the intake, and that when it evaporates it could create extra tension on re-start. Is that a viable theory? Wouln't the car have to sit for a few minutes for that to take place? If the car is warm and I shut it off and then try to restart immediatley, it still barely cranks.

Also, is there ANY possibililty that it could be a problem with the shortblock? My oil pressure may be a little low (not sure I trust the dummy gauge though) and after I did the heads/cam/rockers it seems to run pretty hot. Could something be worn-out (and expanding with heat) and that is causing extra internal friction on re-start? I know this is "worst case" type thinking, but I must say the more things I replace and test with no change the more sleep I lose wondering about it....lol.

Any other ideas/comments are apreciated...I'll let you know what I find out.

gofastmercury · 06-27-2003, 05:55 PM

You could try spinning by it by hand, both hot and cold, just to see if it is tight. I would get timing light on it too. But I think the timing would affect it cold too. I don't think its a fuel problem. And like Chris says, check your ground.

Rev · 06-27-2003, 06:53 PM

I bought an AutoZone Duralast starters for the life time warranty. I've had 4 or 5 in the last 7-8 years. My starters always crank slower when the car is hot, but a good starter will always start the car within a few seconds. The first sign that I get that the starter is going south is really slow hot cranking. I usually wait till the car will barely start hot and then take it back for testing. It's always been "yes, the starter is bad". Then they have to give me a new one because I've learned to keep a file with all old sales slips. As I said, I think I'm on #5 now. It seems each starter motor lasts a year or so with not too many miles. This has been my experience with rebuilt starters. Alternators for me are about the same. They have to give me a new one every year or so. I could buy a new OEM unit from Ford for 4 or 5 times the price, but I'm a cheapskate at heart I guess.

Rev

PKRWUD · 06-28-2003, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frankenstang65
Another NEW starter??....lol...you sound pretty confident, so I'll give it a try. Been really beating my head against the wall on this one, hopefully that'll solve it.

I'll double check all my connections tonight, but I'm 98% sure that they are all clean and tight. And yes, the battery is only 5 days old, so I'm almost positive that it couldn't be the weak link.

A friend of mine suggested the possibilty of the carb leaking fuel into the intake, and that when it evaporates it could create extra tension on re-start. Is that a viable theory? Wouln't the car have to sit for a few minutes for that to take place? If the car is warm and I shut it off and then try to restart immediatley, it still barely cranks.

Also, is there ANY possibililty that it could be a problem with the shortblock? My oil pressure may be a little low (not sure I trust the dummy gauge though) and after I did the heads/cam/rockers it seems to run pretty hot. Could something be worn-out (and expanding with heat) and that is causing extra internal friction on re-start? I know this is "worst case" type thinking, but I must say the more things I replace and test with no change the more sleep I lose wondering about it....lol.

Any other ideas/comments are apreciated...I'll let you know what I find out.

If your oil pressure is on the low side, that means you have more than enough clearance at the bearings, which means less resistance. Today, Pistons are actually designed to be egg shaped when cold, so that when they expand, they become full circles. This will make it more difficult to start when warm, but your starter should be strong enough to turn the engine in that condition with hardly any effort.

When they rebuild starters and alternators these days, they start with a core that someone else turned in, and they test for failed components. Those are all they replace, which means any other components that were close to failing, but hadn't yet, are left alone. This increases the likelyhood that your starter will fail again in the near future. This benefits the store selling the part in two ways: first, it saves them a fortune in costs, which allows them to make a decent profit while still giving you a low price, and second, it pretty much guarantees that you will come back to them when the part fails, and the odds are good that you will have lost your receipt, or will have gone over your warranty period, and bingo, they sell you another part.

The bottom line is unless you have extremely high compression, say 13:1 or higher, you shouldn't have any trouble cranking the engine over, hot or cold.

Take care,
~Chris

mustangman65_79 · 06-28-2003, 12:17 PM

I would more lean to the conetions to the block. U may be running a connetion that is fine when cold, but when those wire heat up, as I've noticed, they seem to lose power, more restaince some how. Before u go and buy another starter, save some money by either cleaning your connections, or buying some 2-4 guage wires. Make sure they have good, clean points.

I was having the same ploblem with my car a couple of weeks ago, and i thought I trouble shot it down to a bad starter. When it was cold, everything was fine, but after it was warm, it seemed like the starter was taking too much juice out of the battery. I tried one last thing before going to get the stater, and it fixed it. I found out that my battery connections were lose, but not bad enough to see or cause any thing else. They were only lose by a little bit, but it was enough to cause a hard crank when it was warm. So now it works like new.

So, here;s what I'd do

#1 check batt connections
#2 check ground, then power connections
#3 buy bigger 2-4 guage power and ground wires
If nothing else, then #4 buy a new, not rebuilt starter.

mystang_71 · 06-29-2003, 12:11 AM

It has been my experience that heatsoak among starters is a big problem I would try some wrap and good wires. But I'm with most evetyone with the "get a new starter idea" as that's probably the culprit .

Frankenstang65 · 07-02-2003, 08:24 PM

Woo woo! Thanks for the help, I'm pleased to report that the problem is finally solved. Turns out it WAS the new starter just as many of you had predicted.

Disapointing that a part that one trusts to be functional turns out to be a p.o.s., but I guess I probably had a little too much faith in my local parts store.

Soooo happy that it finally runs reliably, thanks again!

6Stang7 · 07-03-2003, 03:23 AM

Good to hear. I have the same starting problem after the engine gets hot, but mine also will get bad throttle responce. Still battling the gremlins I guess.

Rev · 07-03-2003, 11:41 AM

Quote:

[i]The bottom line is unless you have extremely high compression, say 13:1 or higher, you shouldn't have any trouble cranking the engine over, hot or cold. [/B]

That comment made me remember way back in the '50's when a lot of us ran flat head Fords. We would get Edelbrock or Offenhouser after market heads with 13/1 compression. Leaded gas was used then and premium was 103 octane. The electrical systems were 6 volts then. The starter motor would barely turn the engine over and starting was problematical.

What we did was to install an 8 volt battery in the 6 volt system. That would start the engine but would eat up starter motors, head lights, and all other electrical accessories (there weren't many).

Sorry for the nostalgia, but the above comment just made me remember.

Rev

PKRWUD · 07-03-2003, 03:32 PM

Hey Rev, that was before my time, but I can't help but wonder if there could have been some way to wire in a second battery in series to the starter, so that the voltage would only be increased to the starter? Just a thought.

Take care,
~Chris

Rev · 07-03-2003, 09:07 PM

Hey Chris, that probably would have worked if we (teenagers then ) had known what we were actually doing. The only batteries available were 6 and 8 volts. I can't remember when 12 volt systems came about.

I do remember those hot flat head Fords though. They were like great big Briggs and Strattons with 8 cylinders. Things were very rudimentory then. OHV was the cutting edge technology and engine swaps were the rage.

As I remember, we didn't mind replacing starter motors, head lights, etc. to allow the use of those "state of the art" heads with the 8 volt batteries.

Rev

PKRWUD · 07-04-2003, 01:24 PM

Just think of all the money you guys saved on valve cover gaskets!

Take care,
~Chris

mustangman65_79 · 07-07-2003, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rev
That comment made me remember way back in the '50's when a lot of us ran flat head Fords. We would get Edelbrock or Offenhouser after market heads with 13/1 compression. Leaded gas was used then and premium was 103 octane. The electrical systems were 6 volts then. The starter motor would barely turn the engine over and starting was problematical.

What we did was to install an 8 volt battery in the 6 volt system. That would start the engine but would eat up starter motors, head lights, and all other electrical accessories (there weren't many).

Sorry for the nostalgia, but the above comment just made me remember.

Rev

Hey, i don't mind hearing stuff like that. I only wish i could have grown up back then. But I guess I would have to bring computers with me, along with elect ignition, stuff like that.

06-27-2003, 05:55 PM	#6
gofastmercury Registered Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: calgary alberta canada Posts: 366	You could try spinning by it by hand, both hot and cold, just to see if it is tight. I would get timing light on it too. But I think the timing would affect it cold too. I don't think its a fuel problem. And like Chris says, check your ground. __________________ 93LXcopcarSOLD14.3@96 @ 4500ft 2.02 60ft on street tires. my 67 ranchero NOT A 390 ANY MORE! 460! 3.70's cast manifolds, comp cams 262H, performer, 750DP 100K out of 79 F250 NEW(oct20/02)14.58@95mph 2.3 60 ft corrects to:13.86@100 66 merc comet351w, isky roller 600 lift 268/260@.050, vic jr. 700DP, 5000stall, 4.56's c-4, 3400lbs with driver 12.3@110 @ 4000ft 1.69 60 ft corrects to:11.69@115

06-27-2003, 06:53 PM	#7
Rev Registered Member Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Houston, Tx. Posts: 3,887	Starter as Chris says I bought an AutoZone Duralast starters for the life time warranty. I've had 4 or 5 in the last 7-8 years. My starters always crank slower when the car is hot, but a good starter will always start the car within a few seconds. The first sign that I get that the starter is going south is really slow hot cranking. I usually wait till the car will barely start hot and then take it back for testing. It's always been "yes, the starter is bad". Then they have to give me a new one because I've learned to keep a file with all old sales slips. As I said, I think I'm on #5 now. It seems each starter motor lasts a year or so with not too many miles. This has been my experience with rebuilt starters. Alternators for me are about the same. They have to give me a new one every year or so. I could buy a new OEM unit from Ford for 4 or 5 times the price, but I'm a cheapskate at heart I guess. Rev __________________ '66 Coupe, 306, 350-375 HP, C-4, 13.07 e.t., 104.8 mph, 1/4 mi. O.B.C. #2 '66 coupe Last edited by Rev; 06-27-2003 at 08:15 PM..

06-28-2003, 12:17 PM	#9
mustangman65_79 My poor 79 RIP Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Suisun City, Posts: 2,320	I would more lean to the conetions to the block. U may be running a connetion that is fine when cold, but when those wire heat up, as I've noticed, they seem to lose power, more restaince some how. Before u go and buy another starter, save some money by either cleaning your connections, or buying some 2-4 guage wires. Make sure they have good, clean points. I was having the same ploblem with my car a couple of weeks ago, and i thought I trouble shot it down to a bad starter. When it was cold, everything was fine, but after it was warm, it seemed like the starter was taking too much juice out of the battery. I tried one last thing before going to get the stater, and it fixed it. I found out that my battery connections were lose, but not bad enough to see or cause any thing else. They were only lose by a little bit, but it was enough to cause a hard crank when it was warm. So now it works like new. So, here;s what I'd do #1 check batt connections #2 check ground, then power connections #3 buy bigger 2-4 guage power and ground wires If nothing else, then #4 buy a new, not rebuilt starter. __________________ '84 mustang GT turbo '85 LTD '89 Camaro Irocz z28 '94 Lightning '96 Trans am

06-29-2003, 12:11 AM	#10
mystang_71 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4	It has been my experience that heatsoak among starters is a big problem I would try some wrap and good wires. But I'm with most evetyone with the "get a new starter idea" as that's probably the culprit . __________________ my cars not leaking--- its marking its territory.

07-02-2003, 08:24 PM	#11
Frankenstang65 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 79	Woo woo! Thanks for the help, I'm pleased to report that the problem is finally solved. Turns out it WAS the new starter just as many of you had predicted. Disapointing that a part that one trusts to be functional turns out to be a p.o.s., but I guess I probably had a little too much faith in my local parts store. Soooo happy that it finally runs reliably, thanks again! __________________ 1965 Coupe: 351W, comp cam, Aluminum Systemax II heads (2.02/1.60), 1.7 Cobra full roller rockers, Edelbrock intake, Holley 650 double pumper, Mallory Unilite, MSD-6AL, MSD Blaster 2 coil, MSD heli-core plug wires, Hedman headers, 2 1/2" exhaust (GT style) w/ 40 series delta flows, 69 C4 w/ shift kit, shelby traction bars, 3.55:1 rear Daily Driver: 1989 GT- 5spd, K&N (no silencer), Shorty Headers, King Cobra Clutch, Flowmaster Force II Cat-back

06-25-2003, 04:30 PM	#1
Frankenstang65 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 79	grr...starting problems..any ideas? So here is the deal. For the last 6-8 months, I've been fighting with starting problems with the 351W in my '65. When the car is cold, or only mildly warm it'll start up like a champ...it'll fire on the first couple of clicks. My problem is that when the car is at operating temperature (as in I've driven 3 or 4 miles and then shut it down) the car will not restart. It cranks REALLY slowly, especially at first, and usually will speed up a little bit...but still will not start untill after it has 30 or so minutes to cool (not vapor locked either, getting plenty of fuel). I really can't figure this out, I'm really disapointed because I just finished putting the motor back in the car after being out for months, and the problem is still there even with a ton of new parts. Here's what has changed: The entire top end (alum heads, comp cam, cobra rockers, pushrods, intake, etc), Starter, Starter solenoid, battery, all the cables, plug wires, distributor, coil, plugs, etc. - Pretty much everything that has to do with starting, and a bunch of stuff that doesn't. Yet, the problem remains unchanged. What am I overlooking??? Could there be something wrong with the engine internally that is causing it to "bind up" when it gets warm? (keeping in mind that it runs PERFECT when it does start...lol..no knocks or funny noises) I didn't do anything with the short block when the motor was out, but upon looking at it, there didn't seem to be anything out of order (the bolts were tight, no extra slop between the rods and crank,etc- it looked solid). Any advice ideas would be greatly appreciated...soooo frustrating to not be able to drive the car anywhere after all the time I've spent on it. Thanks!! __________________ 1965 Coupe: 351W, comp cam, Aluminum Systemax II heads (2.02/1.60), 1.7 Cobra full roller rockers, Edelbrock intake, Holley 650 double pumper, Mallory Unilite, MSD-6AL, MSD Blaster 2 coil, MSD heli-core plug wires, Hedman headers, 2 1/2" exhaust (GT style) w/ 40 series delta flows, 69 C4 w/ shift kit, shelby traction bars, 3.55:1 rear Daily Driver: 1989 GT- 5spd, K&N (no silencer), Shorty Headers, King Cobra Clutch, Flowmaster Force II Cat-back

06-25-2003, 07:08 PM	#2
mustangII460 Factoy Five Roadster Join Date: May 2000 Location: Sevier Co,Tennessee Posts: 1,681	First thing that pops in my mind is timing. Try warming it up again, then crank while someone moves the distributor a little. See if that changes anything. Also if your compression went up with your rebuild, your stock starter may not be up to par, especially after its warm. I use a late model starter in my old Bronco with a 1,000 cranking amp battery. __________________ Frank

06-25-2003, 08:17 PM	#3
hobgoblin351 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 245	I'm having the same problem. I've ruled out the starter. I'm running 10.25/1 compression so I got one of those high torque jobs and it kicks butt. Not the timing, and it's getting fuel. I'm thinking the coil is getting hot and is the weak link. It's mounted to the manifold. I'm going to try a heat wrap, to help insulate it. Then maybe move it to the firewall of the fender apron. With the headers things get pretty hot under the hood, and thats the last thing I can think of whose preformance would be effected by the temp. __________________ 1970 Stang Conv: en:Boss351 (balanced/blueprinted) mech cam(240*@.050/.540 lift) Scrw in studs/comp cams rllr rkr Mldn valves 2.19in 1.71ex ported polished cc'd hrdnd ex Keith Black FT pistons(10.25/1) Weiand Excellorator manifold Holley700 DP mech 2nds MSD 6 box and Dis Headers/2 1/2 inch duels tr: modified FMX re:9-inch/3.89 limited slip

06-26-2003, 11:24 PM	#5
Frankenstang65 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 79	thanks Another NEW starter??....lol...you sound pretty confident, so I'll give it a try. Been really beating my head against the wall on this one, hopefully that'll solve it. I'll double check all my connections tonight, but I'm 98% sure that they are all clean and tight. And yes, the battery is only 5 days old, so I'm almost positive that it couldn't be the weak link. A friend of mine suggested the possibilty of the carb leaking fuel into the intake, and that when it evaporates it could create extra tension on re-start. Is that a viable theory? Wouln't the car have to sit for a few minutes for that to take place? If the car is warm and I shut it off and then try to restart immediatley, it still barely cranks. Also, is there ANY possibililty that it could be a problem with the shortblock? My oil pressure may be a little low (not sure I trust the dummy gauge though) and after I did the heads/cam/rockers it seems to run pretty hot. Could something be worn-out (and expanding with heat) and that is causing extra internal friction on re-start? I know this is "worst case" type thinking, but I must say the more things I replace and test with no change the more sleep I lose wondering about it....lol. Any other ideas/comments are apreciated...I'll let you know what I find out. __________________ 1965 Coupe: 351W, comp cam, Aluminum Systemax II heads (2.02/1.60), 1.7 Cobra full roller rockers, Edelbrock intake, Holley 650 double pumper, Mallory Unilite, MSD-6AL, MSD Blaster 2 coil, MSD heli-core plug wires, Hedman headers, 2 1/2" exhaust (GT style) w/ 40 series delta flows, 69 C4 w/ shift kit, shelby traction bars, 3.55:1 rear Daily Driver: 1989 GT- 5spd, K&N (no silencer), Shorty Headers, King Cobra Clutch, Flowmaster Force II Cat-back

07-03-2003, 03:23 AM	#12
6Stang7 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Livemore Posts: 6	Good to hear. I have the same starting problem after the engine gets hot, but mine also will get bad throttle responce. Still battling the gremlins I guess.

07-03-2003, 03:32 PM	#14
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Hey Rev, that was before my time, but I can't help but wonder if there could have been some way to wire in a second battery in series to the starter, so that the voltage would only be increased to the starter? Just a thought. Take care, ~Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

07-03-2003, 09:07 PM	#15
Rev Registered Member Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Houston, Tx. Posts: 3,887	Series Hey Chris, that probably would have worked if we (teenagers then ) had known what we were actually doing. The only batteries available were 6 and 8 volts. I can't remember when 12 volt systems came about. I do remember those hot flat head Fords though. They were like great big Briggs and Strattons with 8 cylinders. Things were very rudimentory then. OHV was the cutting edge technology and engine swaps were the rage. As I remember, we didn't mind replacing starter motors, head lights, etc. to allow the use of those "state of the art" heads with the 8 volt batteries. Rev __________________ '66 Coupe, 306, 350-375 HP, C-4, 13.07 e.t., 104.8 mph, 1/4 mi. O.B.C. #2 '66 coupe

07-04-2003, 01:24 PM	#16
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Just think of all the money you guys saved on valve cover gaskets! Take care, ~Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
'94 Ford Bronco starting problems	Simi Stang	Built Ford Tough	5	01-17-2003 08:53 PM
problems starting car, please help	apowers2k	Modular Madness	1	11-08-2002 12:17 PM
Problems with starting and acceleration	7up	Windsor Power	5	04-15-2002 11:08 PM
starting problems on a new 306 w/eecIV	fordplay	Windsor Power	6	03-16-2002 01:06 PM
starting problems	92Convertible	Windsor Power	1	03-10-2002 06:22 PM