Which is the real limiting factor on a stock 5.0?
 

Considering were I am with my car and my available cash flow, this is a pretty important question.

Some people go into the 11's with the stock cam, it is actually pretty good for a stock part.

I will break into the 12's here pretty soon with ported stock heads,explorer intake and stock cam and rockers.

I think the intake is the most restrictive part of the stock 5.0 engine.

Adding an aftermarket intake with a 65mm TB is good for a few horsies which proves that the stock intake was choking the stock heads somewhat.

Obviosly the heads have the most effect on performance if You put AFR 165's on with a stock intake there is no doubt you would go quite a bit faster but you will not reach your full potential.

Heads and intake should be upgraded at the same time. So that your car reaches its full potential.

JMO,

I voted for both the intake and heads.

When I bolted up my GT40 intake, 65 TB, 24#ers, and 75mm Bullet, I was expecting a huge gain and just didn't see it - this was with the stock E7TE's.

As soon as I installed the TFS TW heads and Steeda cam the car came alive.

As Dark 5.0 has said and done, it is possible to see gains with ported stock heads, and new intake, etc. but it will be 'harder' to do.

If it were me, I would save up the cash to do everything (read: intake, heads, maybe a cam too) at once.

Good luck with your decision.
E

Thanks guys. I was thinking ported heads with stock cam/intake. But I'm not spend time and money (gaskets and seal) to get very marginal gains.

I porteded the exhaust on my cylinder heads, changed to a trick flow street intake and put on headers/dual exhaust and it made my car come alive. The power used to literally DIE after 4500 and now my best times come when i shift at 5500 (which it actually pulls up to). It's best to get the heads/intake together because you will see MUCH better power gains, but i got a noticable kick in the pants with what i did.
...then again i also had 1.7 roller rockers, CAI, 73MM maf and 70mm TB before i added these things, so your results may vary.

Money:D

I have intake, full exhaust, and cam...

My car is DYING for some heads. I think the intake sucks ***, but I think it is the heads that really hold it back. When I added a new e-303 cam, intake manifolds, and headers I saw no improvement with my 1/4 mile times. Granted, the cam I got sucks with AOD (FINALLY going to start the swap to T5 tomorrow!). I know heads would really make my car come alive, which is why I voted heads. I agree intake is needed, but better gains come from the heads.

Ok, that was some serious rambling, but whatever!

Thanks,
DoranW

If you have an AOD i would definately suggest that you swap it for someting better. I swaped my with a T-5 like sonics is about to do and it made a major difference in performance. If you dont believe me, wait until sonics is through with his swap and see what he says.

Sonics, good luck with your swap, send me an e-mail if you have any quesions about your swap.:cool:

I smoke cars with aftermarket heads cam and intake every weekend. The look on there face when I tell them I have stock ported heads and still run the stock cam is priceless.

I think I will always keep my E7's.

There are many stangs running 11's and 12's with the stock heads. They have potential if you know what you are doing.

The intake on the other hand is junk,

IMO.

One thing that the E7's really lack is on the exhaust side. A guy at our track has home ported his E7's, and done the 1.7/1.6 thing along with full exhaust, pulleys, gears, etc. and has got in the high 12's with slicks. So, it's definitely possible. If you're on a really tight budget it might be worth it.

E

How much does it cost to port heads? Wouldn't it be worth just buying a new/used pair?

Thanks,
DoranW

My vote was for the heads but we can't ignore the fact that changing both would be the best combo.
I changed to TW heads with the stock intake and gained a lot ot the track in the coupe a long time ago.
I changed to the Trickflow intake with stock heads and saw almost no gain on the GT. That was also a long time ago too.

Do you still have the stock exhaust? On my 90 the exhaust made the biggest difference. 1 5/8" long tube headers and 2 1/2" exhaust made for a really noticable difference.

combo
 

Well
I think saying the stock intake sucks is mighty strong,long ago guys went fast with the stock intake and TFS Street Heat heads,this was before the GT40 intake came along,and it was guys flying then with stock intakes.

I will say this,you can always go better with what is out there right now,GT40 still makes a lot more torque than some aftermarket intakes out there,look at the Jan 2001 issue of MM&FF where they tested the GT40 against some heavy hitters in the intake world,it was the GT40 vs the TFS R,Holley Systemax,and Eddy Vic 5.0,the other 3 made more hp but the Gt40 made the most torque.

Sorry for the long answer,but it is too many guys out there going fast with stock parts to say they suck.

The short between the steering wheel and the gas pedal IS the biggest restriction. This is not ment as an insult to anyone here. It is lack of knowledge that is the restriction. I currently have E7s. gasket matched on the intake and the bump removed fron the exhaust. I can assure any of you that I can go back to a stock cam and intake and still run twelves. I am not being a smartass, look over the spelling, I suck there, but I can make a car run on a burger king budget. I ran 112 mph wed night.

Well said.........112mph is awesome with stock heads:eek:

88workcar - gotta love the old speed density and the driver :D I'm curious, what's your race weight?

E

Hey I got a question. Are those GT-40P heads worth buying? What do you think you could get out of them as far as max et? Thanks alot.

Dan.

hey 88workcar , are you using nitrous ? i am also curious about the weight of your car when you race it , and what you got done to your suspension .

Thank GOD that no one has taken my post wrong. I never wanted to upset anyone, but I want to get my point across. My car will get weighed Wed or Thur night this week. The last time I weighed it, it was 2900lbs with me in the car. Now it should come in at a high 2700lbs. I never post when my car has me stumped. But too weeks ago, the dist. went out. Now the torque boxes are demolished (OLD 1.5s 60fts) The biggest set back lately was that I spent $450 to have my old, big valve, ported, shaved, E7s redone and the gaskets and too days of wrenching. Only to fine that the head shop screwed me, one head is cracked. Yes they say that they checked them. Well today I called POWER HEADS, I thing that I am going that route. I want 12.00s on a pair of E7s. Yes I do have NOS, I don't have a cage so I don't use it at the track. I did bust a guys butt two weeks ago on the street with it.

I'm actually in the process of gettin an upper and lower intake on my pretty stock 1990 5.0gt so if your not in a rush i'll keep you posted as to what gives me the most power over stock.

Hey 88workcar - my son and I have an 88GT that we're fixing up for a weekend warrior. Currently we've got some bolt on mods like long-tube headers, underdrive headers, high flow cat back etc.

Currently the car is still speed density. I've been told by many people to convert to MAF as we're limited what we can do to increase performance on the car. I've seen a little indicator of this when we put on a K&N cononical filter and the car wouldn't idle worth beans.

We would like to get our car into the low 13s or high 12s NA. We don't have the knowlege that you have with putting together the right combo for the highest increase in hp and torque. Can you give us some suggestions on what you did? If you had to do all over again - would you stay SD or convert to MAF on your 88LX?

when i click on your link , why does it say that you have edelbrock performer cylinder heads ?

289, I have a complete conversion here. I like the SD. My computer likes to show off as much as I do. It takes any thing I throw at it. ported GT 40s with big valves, Edelbrocs, Built E7s, E,B, 1087 wolverine, ram air, timing, compression. The only thing it will not accept is 24lb injectors, but ran as fast as 12.17@ 113 with 19s and 39psi of fuel at 3950lbs. (65mm cobra edel B). I have tried to remove EVERYTHING that I can. To go fast, you have to have money, or ambition and be willing to make sacrifices. Give up comfort. I want one thing, FAST. Look at the down side for me I have owned this car for 12 1/2 years and still only run 12s. Now I have raised 2 children bought a home remodled it, Race a banshee that runs 7.1s at 90mph in the 1/8th , my son has a blaster that will whipp any Raptor or 400EX in town. I make 600.00 a week. How much money do you think the mustang gets? One thing I do, is stay friends with the fast boys and try to buy 2nd hand when they up grade.
As far as the SD goes, I think that its all hear/say. Yes when I put the heads on it got stupid. Drive down the road, pouring fuel, smoking, running like crap. Ten minutes later its good to go.
Mike, that is three years ago, I need to change it. Those Edlebrocs were bought for 200 and I lost a friend when he decided that he wanted them back. He swore that they were mine, yes $200.00.
If I could do it all over, I would weld the torque boxes the 1st day. Yes I would stay SD. I will post every thing about my car real soon. It may be a few days I have to port some banshee cyl and repair a raptor this week. The biggest thing I tell people is make up your mind, Fast or comfort / Fast or quiet/ Fast or ect...

"289, I have a complete conversion here. I like the SD", what do you mean by complete conversion still SD with heads and the other stuff you did or conversion to MAF?

He means he has the stuff laying around to convert to mass air, but he likes his speed density computer.

BTW: My car is also speed density with pretty heavy mods.

I'm just trying to learn more about our stang - what do you guys like about SD vs MAF?

Dark_5.0 - what heavy mods have you done? I'll tell you we simply put on a K&N cononical filter as I said earlier and our stang ran like crap. Is there anything you guys did to the SD to get the heavy mods?

The SD's always seem to run 'harder' than the MAF cars.

I've always wondered how guys like Dark 5.0 and 88workcar have been able to have such success with their modified SD Mustangs. An aftermarket intake install on my buddy's 88 GT and the car wouldn't idle for crap and was blowing bluish-gray smoke out the pipes. Once you start playing with the volume of air the engine is seeing, it seems to give the SD fits - except in cases like I've mentioned above.

You gotta respect guys that have successfully modified their SDs - 12.20's is no joke!

E

I tip my hat to these dudes making SDs run in the 12s! It would be nice to get into the mid 13s with our stang. We haven't run it yet - but reading all the posts - I think we'll be in the 14s.

I simply adjust the fuel pressure to get mine to idle right.

My mods..

extremely ported, polished and milled E7's with 1.7 RR
explorer intake with 3/8 inch phenolic spacer
65mm TB with 67mm egr spacer
aeromotive FPR
mac CAI fender kit
BBk 1 5/8 equal length headers
off road x-pipe
under drive pullies
flex fan
3.73's
etc....

My best time is a 13.4 @102mph @3000ft. I have the fuel pressure set @42psi @WOT.

If you fellas want some encouragement. Listen to this. In 93 I got the "BUG" and bad. My son was 4 my daughter was just born. Money was,,,,well it wasn't. I got a set of stock heads and an intake from some one for nothing. I ported both. Cut the box open on the intake, ported, got it welded up. Ported blind (oo) when it was all done, I scraped money cutting grass to service the heads. 3 angle valve job, decked .030, new seals, .060 shims under the springs, ect... $200.00. I put it all on, the car ran WAAAYY faster. I lucked into some money got a 65mm TB. I already had 1 1/2 long tubes, 2 ch flows, 3.55s,k&n,fuel reg.,sub frames,4cyl springs all 4, muffler shop H pipe. It ran 13. 85 @ 100 before the heads and intake. 13.09 @ 105 after. Now, I gained 7 tenths, not knowing crap. All I knew was things are tight, my babies need to be fed, And we AIN'T GOT NO MONEY FOR THAT DAMM CAR. Fellas, port your stock heads. We all don't have $1000.00 alocated for alum. Have fun, do it anyway. People told me, Your waisting your time, now I'm waisting them. Who is it that said "come to the track, you might learn somthing?"

The magical 12 second quarter mile isnt nearly related to your heads/cam, or intake. It really comes down to your suspension setup. If you can yank a decent 60 ft you can run a 12 without porting those heads.

Fastang, Im not so shure you can break 12's with suspension mods alone. Puting the most power to the ground possible definately make a huge difference, but a stock motor just doesn't have what it takes to go 12's with bolt-on aftermarket suspension parts.

Phase II, one of the motors I bought, 500.00 junkyard motor. I put in just like it came out the donar car. This was a true stock motor. My car now had 4.30s, a good set of tires, less weight, race pully, and what ever else I can not remember right now. Still had dirt on the stock intake from the fork lift that put it in my truck. 1st pass, 13.42 @ 102. The week after I put plugs, wires, cap, rotor, timing, at 16. This netted a 13.22 @ 104. A week later my cobra and 65mm was on 12.98 @ 105.. A week later my good E7s and a B cam 12.53 @ 107.99.

What suspension mods to you guys recommend to get into the 12s? My son and I are planning on doing these mods over the winter to the rear for our 88GT 5-speed: 3.73s, Eaton posi, 31-spline Superior axles, new upper/lower control arms(open to recommendations). We already have Kenny Brown sub-frames welded on.

Glad to see this thread came back up. 289 I can not tell you what is best, I can not make up your mind for you, But I WILL tell you what works for me.
Gut the car
alum racing seats
weld the torque boxes
put 3 1/2" studs in those new axles
drive shaft loop
alum drive shaft
4.30s
weld rims
good control arms, adjustable uppers (I don't have any) no SSMs
air bags
4 cylinder springs (all 4 )
90/10 lakewood struts
26 x10 Hoosier Slicks
Centerforce duel friction clutch
Launch at 5500rpm
after picking up timeslip go clean underware

I too shaved off 7 tenths, in a different way, i wish i could have my car down long enough to have the heads hogged out, but rely on it everyday for now.
Also i see you are pretty supportive of welding torque boxes, i am going to do this soon, since i can see a crack starting to appear in the pass side box, i give all the revs i can off the line (with crap gears) to get a good 60' i have a friend that is a welder, i am calling him this weekend, do you do this for strengh purposes only? or will the rear actually transfer power more accurately?

thnx workcar, and keep the wheels dangling:D

Someone please help me out. What exactly are the torque boxes?
Thanks.
Caymon

One more thing. Will I still see gains if I port the intake and exhaust side of the heads but do not enlarge the valves? How hard is it to port the lower intake and the upper intake?

bigred, yes, you can just enlarge the exhaust side of the e7's and see a gain, most likely, some new springs, and just a little work on the exhaust side would be a kick in power imo.
torque Boxes= Where your lower control arm's bolt onto the frame, there is some thin metal there holding it together, look underside/inside of your rear wheel, i thought id inspect mine one day since im launching on stickies, sure enough, one is tearing, But it is repairable as of now, any more could be costly repair work.
Oh, I seen ported e7's (stock valve) and b-cam go 106 mph in a 3100 lb car, was a carbed car though.:eek:

Another thing, get some 1.7 rockers for your heads, no matter what kind of porting you do on those stock heads, the 1.7 ratio will take advantage of the larger volumes of air, using stock cam.
Also before many mods, most people strongly believe you need subframe connectors, you cant go wrong with those two mods above, combined with slicks should give some good gains.

I'm actualy building a junkyard turbo kit and my restriction will be the stock block and internals. I will not use the stock heads and intake but i could still make enough power to split the block with them.

i cant agree more with workcar and coupe5oh. i noticed a difference when i ported out the exhaust side and left the intake side alone. i was told that i am "wasting my time" and "wasting my money". I believe for 302 cubic inches, the ported E7, GT40 and GT40P's are your best bet for a budget. I just bought the "P" heads and talked to the guy who Chambers got them from. You would be amazed the little trick things they do to go fast. Anyone have experience with the "P" heads? i want to shave them, but i hear it gets really close.

James...

Every one is talking about porting the exhaust side. What about the intake side? If I port the lower intake and the intake runners on the heads along with the exhaust, will this produce more of a benifit? Or should I just port the exhaust side and be happy with the results? Thanks.
Caymon

Well, not my car, but...
 

My father bought his GT new in 91...in 95, he just installed the GT40 intake, 65mm TB, Pro-M Bullet 75mm MAF, Power Pipe w/K&N, 3.73s, Pulleys and 2 chamber Flows. He went 13.9s @ 101 or something like that. The track bug bit him and he started going to the track every weekend, in search of better times.

He got some GT40 Y heads, a B Cam, 24lb inj, electric fan, manual rack, A/C delete, LTs, 2.5 Catted H and Hoosiers and went 13.0s. He lightened the car, got a drag spring kit, torque boxes, 4.10s, M&Hs, had the intake cut open & custom ported and the heads milled and ported. He weighed in at 3010 lbs w/ driver and went 11.87@113.x w/1.5x 60s. He backed it up with an 11.90@112.x. Not bad for a stock bottom end 302.:D

Just sharing...I think I'm gona be getting his heads and intake this summer, he wants to build a 347.:D

Caymon, the reason everyone ports the exhaust side of the heads is because of the thermactor "bump" on the roof of the exhaust port. I never realized how big the damn bump was until I pulled my heads off. From what Ive heard, it really restricts the exhaust flow.

Yep, and i need to practice what i preach and grind the hump outta mine.....:)

Well, I used to think that the stock heads were the problem.

But (before blowing the motor) I had a 85 GT with a 88motor, stock cam, stock heads, with intake carb, ignition and fulll exhaust and that little sob ran 105mph.

Its focusing on a good tune, and some motors just have it, and others don't.

Skyler

$$$

95/gt/50 wroteHey with some of that I could really run good.

POLL: 1 Should we start a workcar go fast fund?
2 Should we buy Skyler a new short block?
3 Should we buy dirtbiker some alum heads?

Im all for #2! Lets start the fund drive! Tracking one down in the junkyard right now.

Skyler