rebuilding my 79 302

[bmxmon]

I am now starting my senior year of high school. I signed up for a independent study, which my teacher and I named machine restoration. My plans are to rebuild my 79 302, that i have waiting for my 65. I live up in northern minnesota hick like country, so we have a huge metal shop, wood shop, staining room, and spray booth room. Kids like to screw with things, so my teacher is going to let me store my 302 in the spray booth room, which never gets used, and can be locked. Now, my questions are, what is the best length to go doing a rebuild?? Should i just do the gaskets and rings, or try to do more, like pistons and everything?? We have two metal shop class teachers, who are both pretty knowledgeable about engines. I am somewhat, but mostly from reading, not from doing. Money is somewhat tight, thinking around like $300. That would be for like the internal stuff, including camshaft, if possible. Going to probably be putting edelbrock intake and carb, with an unknown yet brand of headers. Also, does anybody know of places that i can get things for my engine?? I went to napa, and they said that they didnt even have (or even get, i think) valve cover gaskets for it!! Did i pick a bad year? What order should i buy my parts, might have to space them out, due to my lack of cash. I have this class for 9 weeks i believe, one semester. I might be able to work on it for like 2 class hours a day (about 55 mins), because i also have a small engines class. (its a small block........) Any suggestions for me?? Also, just for my info, is a 79 classified as a 302 or 5.0?? Or is it just one of those in the eye of the beholder kinda things??? thanks for any help.

[crazypete]

Well, I know the 83 302 only made like 175 hp from the factory so I dont think the 79 would fare that much better. I think once you drop some decent heads on there, that figure will rise dramatically. $300 is a mighty lean budget. Is that just for the rebuild? You could still squeeze by.

Summit sells hyperutectic piston rebuild kits for $270 or so but I didnt see the 79 listed. Getting the cam bearings out is a chore to say the least. Years ago, I rebuilt my 87 5.0 engine in my basement and basically just cleaned everything off and replaced bearings, gaskets and piston rings and cleaned the existing pistons. I used a cylinder hone to remove the groove at the top of each cylinder, put standard rings back on the now sparkly used pistons (I used steel wool to buff them. It removes grime but doesnt remove material). I'm gonna get crazy flamed for saying dont replace the pistons but it worked for me and the engine got 25 mpg and didnt burn oil even with 127K in it. It took me almost 3 months to clean everything meticulously though. It's labor intensive, but you can get the non piston equipped kits for under $100 I think (PAW has them I think). Now that engine doesnt have a roller cam in it so I think the cam gets ground down over the years or so I've heard so that might have to get replaced too. Valvesprings should probably get replaced.

Maybe a good bet is to grab a 302 HO from a 85+ vehicle and put the $100 of rings and seals into that. I think it's a much better starting point. Like I said, the 79 isnt even listed on summit.

Good luck dude!

[Fat0eknee]

i agree with crazy ..try to get your hands on a newer 5.0 from the junker - they are very common and would be a much better starting point

[88fivepointoh]

Originally posted by Fat0eknee
i agree with crazy ..try to get your hands on a newer 5.0 from the junker - they are very common and would be a much better starting point

I Agree with these guys, the 79 block is ok, But has no performance in it. The 85 plus rollor motors are the way to go.. Try to sell off that 79 block and get yourself some decent $$ flow from it.. put some decent headers and a nice cam and you'll be ok to start.. rings and head gaskets a must!


[marquee] 5.0L Rules [/marquee]

[bmxmon]

I dont really want to go with a newer engine. I made a list of things here they are:

Gasket kit 37.99 Mr. Gasket set; Ford 221-302
Rockers 145.99 comp cams magnum rocker arms
Cam and lifters 119.99 energizer cam and lifter kits
Rings 35.99 sealed power not sure on size i need
Bearings Rods 2.99 Clevite77; 289/302
main 23.99
cam 16.99
Timing chain set 23.99 cloyes; Ford small block, 351W std/HO
Pistons 207.92 KB performance pistons 289/302

Total 615.84

All of this is from Jegs.

I would guess i could wait on the rockers, and order things kinda as i need them, to help spread the blow, haha. What do you all think of this???? I think all engines have power hidden in them, so hopefully this one will too. I would guess that the heads will be a major hindering point, but they could be replaced later on.

[88fivepointoh]

The 79 Motor is not a H.0. Motor and just won't have the power of an 85 and up will. For the bottom end there is alot more then just dropping some new bearings in and rings to get it freshened up.. You have to grind the crank, hone the cylinders, etc. If you don't do this, you will have oiling problems and you will seize the motor up in no time. if your going to replace the bottom end components just get a engine rebiuld kit that includes pistons, rings, deals, rods, and everything else.. JC whittney catalouge will have all that stuff cheap. without doing everything in order or skipping corners it will not last and not work right at all.. but again without grinding the crank, you will have oiling issues and it will eat the bearings in a heart beat. Thats why we recommended the 85 or later motor.

[crazypete]

Yeah, leave the rockers for now, the heads are your major concern. Check that cam and make sure it is still usable. I know a guy who had a 69 impala that had 1 cylinder basically shut off since the cam had been ground smooth and the valves werent opening.

Take your existing heads and port the living heck out of them. 79 heads should be early smoggers and have a lot of space for improvement.

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...ng/index.shtml

There is also an article floating around about porting the gt-40's but I cant seem to find it. Very informative though. Basically unshroud the valves, grind down the AIR injection bumps, smooth everything to a glass finish and take off all bumps and smooth the turns. It'll get you more more power than spending money on rockers and since you already have the heads and access to a shop, it doesnt cost anything. Consider spending the rocker money on a nice upper intake which you can port to match the heads.

Then get a true dual exhaust from a mustang at a junkyard (you might need a double hump crossmember too). That'll free up some more power.

Finally strip the car down so you make better use of the power you already have. Take out soundproofing and anything like a bracket that looks extraneous. I managed to get like 400 lbs of crap out of my car and it still has a full interior.

[Fat0eknee]

the 1979 302 had

134 hp @ 3600 rpm and
and 232 trq @ 1600 rpm

..these numbers come straight out of my little ford bible - everybody went emissions crazy in the mid-late 70's along into the early 80's and the heads more than likely have huge combustion chambers along with tiny valves which will pretty much kill your chances of making big power

[bmxmon]

Im not really going for anything crazy. It will be driven totally on the street and highways, mostly because we have no tracks around here. I am going to get rid of all the emissions things that i can, (getting a new intake, carb, and headers) which will probably be later on. You said that its not an HO, so does that mean that the timing chain i have listed wont work?? What i am a bit mistafied on is getting the right cam, timing chain, and distributor so it all works together. I am going follow the moto, work with what ya got. Also, i am confused about the rings i would need to get, if i were going to stick with the stock pistons or the ones i have listed. The engine didnt smoke or anything when i got it, it ran good, really only needed some carb work i believe. Heads will follow, probably along ways down the road though. I think that i will "port the living heck out of them" seems to be a good way to make some more power, and be able to keep the stock heads until i can afford new ones. I thought i heard somewhere that alot of people put 351 heads on their 302, because of better flow, then somehow fix the compression issue. Is this true, and is it a somewhat more affordable alternative down the road to aluminum heads?? Looking back, i should have tried to find a later model engine, but i am going to work with what i have for now. I dont think that there is anyway that I could make my $350 that i paid for the engine back, and time is calling for a project now (school). Thanks for the help with this stuff, im a pretty big newbie, if you cant tell, haha.

[Ieatcamaros]

I am sorry if anyone disagrees. There is nothing wrong with your 79 block. And you can make plenty of power with it as your budget allows. Especially if you don't aim to race it at the track. This sounds like it is more importantly a school project than a built motor. Because if all the motor needed was a little carb work, it don't need rebuilding. Not for what you want. When you get the cam, don't go to big for those heads you got. Which those heads do suck ass. Just make sure you get a timing chain that matches the cam. If you are unsure, just ask the jeg's guy. The main thing about the cam is you can't run much duration and lift with those heads. You will need some valve springs if you much over a .470 lift. Does this motor not already have a distributor? Any early 70's-84 dist will work. Even if it is points. But try to stay electronic if you can. It is much better. The main thing about the 351 heads was the slightly larger ports and larger valves. You can do this, but you will need some head bolt bushings. The 351 uses 1/2" head bolts and the 302 uses 7/16". As far as pistons and rings, you will need to tear down the motor first. You never know how well the previous owner took care of the motor. This also depends on whether the crank needs grinding. If you get down into this motor and it needs to be bored and the crank ground, you are looking at a $140+ in machine work. The guy who sold it to you might have said it was still standard bore. But what if you take the heads off only to find out that it is already bored .060? That would suck. Don't order any parts until you know what you need. If you order .030 over pistons, you would need .030 over rings to go with it. And for a novice like you, don't get file fit rings. Most standard replacement pistons have 5/64, 5/64, and 3/16 ring grooves. Racing pistons would have 1/16 ring grooves. And those 1/16 rings cost more too.

Btw, I just looked in summit's book. There is rebuild kit for 68-82 302's for $249.99. Comes with everything you need. Except for the cam and lifters.

I hope this has shed some light for you and not confused you.

[88fivepointoh]

Originally posted by Ieatcamaros
I am sorry if anyone disagrees. There is nothing wrong with your 79 block. And you can make plenty of power with it as your budget allows. Especially if you don't aim to race it at the track. This sounds like it is more importantly a school project than a built motor. Because if all the motor needed was a little carb work, it don't need rebuilding. Not for what you want. When you get the cam, don't go to big for those heads you got. Which those heads do suck ass. Just make sure you get a timing chain that matches the cam. If you are unsure, just ask the jeg's guy. The main thing about the cam is you can't run much duration and lift with those heads. You will need some valve springs if you much over a .470 lift. Does this motor not already have a distributor? Any early 70's-84 dist will work. Even if it is points. But try to stay electronic if you can. It is much better. The main thing about the 351 heads was the slightly larger ports and larger valves. You can do this, but you will need some head bolt bushings. The 351 uses 1/2" head bolts and the 302 uses 7/16". As far as pistons and rings, you will need to tear down the motor first. You never know how well the previous owner took care of the motor. This also depends on whether the crank needs grinding. If you get down into this motor and it needs to be bored and the crank ground, you are looking at a $140+ in machine work. The guy who sold it to you might have said it was still standard bore. But what if you take the heads off only to find out that it is already bored .060? That would suck. Don't order any parts until you know what you need. If you order .030 over pistons, you would need .030 over rings to go with it. And for a novice like you, don't get file fit rings. Most standard replacement pistons have 5/64, 5/64, and 3/16 ring grooves. Racing pistons would have 1/16 ring grooves. And those 1/16 rings cost more too.

Btw, I just looked in summit's book. There is rebuild kit for 68-82 302's for $249.99. Comes with everything you need. Except for the cam and lifters.

I hope this has shed some light for you and not confused you.

Thats what I said about the kit.. get the kit which will have all you need.. I guess where trying to go Power here and I know when i was a kid which wasn't long ago and wait acually I still am, HA, its all about getting it running. if thats the car in the pic that your doing this all to, then save the car, save your money and get a real motor and restore that car.. it looks great so far.

[Ieatcamaros]

if thats the car in the pic that your doing this all to, then save the car, save your money and get a real motor and restore that car.. it looks great so far.

Nuff said. But this is a school project too. Catch 22.

[88fivepointoh]

Yea, get it running for school and then later in life get that car all restored and kicking ass with a real motor..

[bmxmon]

Looking on the summit site, i cant find a kit for a 68-82 302. I believe i have a catalog coming though, so hopefully something will be in there. If you can find the part number though, that would be great. Seems like a good deal for $250. Also, i couldnt find anything at JC whitney either. The motor has 70k on it, he said anywho. Hes a good guy, so i wouldnt really doubt him. How will i know if anything needs grinding?? I would guess one of my teachers would be able to tell me. I figured it might as well be rebuilt, or freshend up, as long as it is out of the car. I was going to switch over to an older, single wire distributor, but lately have been thinking that maybe i shouldnt. Before i was confused by the 3 wire thing,(didnt know where they went, i was used to my 6's single wire distributor) but im starting to figure it out. Plus, one of my friends has a 79 or 80 f-100 ranger (i think) with a 351 in it. So i figure i can look at that if i need. The cam i picked is energizer cam and lifter kit, with 260degrees adv. duration, .427 Gross lift. I just figured i would want the lowest RPM range. I just want this engine to get me going, and having fun. I think that it will have alot more power than my 6cyl, no matter what i do to it, haha. It would also be nice to be able to beat my brothers 74 camaro with a 350......but even if it doesnt, it wont bother me that bad. Yeah, my car is pretty nice already, but im switching it over to a v-8, already have the rear end done, so I figure its time to start working on the engine. Oh, i also am going to replace the plugs in the blocks, because this one has a block heater, and i dont really need that anymore. I dont think that is anything major though.

[bmxmon]

Originally posted by 88fivepointoh
Yea, get it running for school and then later in life get that car all restored and kicking ass with a real motor..

yeah, i like that idea. Whoever had it before me did some ghetto work, like behind the rear quarters, and quite a bit of bondo throughout. So I will have to straighten all that out later on, when i start doing its bodywork.

[5.0 Fiend]

If the motor only has 70k on it, there should still be quite a bit of life left in it.

[nastyn8]

I rebuilt a '79 302 last year, I went through P.A.W. for all my parts but I think i had around $600 when I was done. In the process I ported shaved the heads to add that missing compression. New bearings 9:1 pistons, Edelbrock RPM intake, Edelbrock idle-5,500 cam, new manley valves, pushrods, rocker arms, springs, the whole nine yards. I plan on putting mine in my 88 4cyl notchback but money is tight when you're a teenage huh. Trust me i saved for about 4 months to buy all that shit.
PAW has everything you need and they are more reasonably priced than summit and jegs. the only bad thing is they dont have an online catalog. you have to order a $6 cat. from them but trust me its worth it. It's like a bible to me. you might as well stay with it since you already have the engine but if you was to come across a new ho for a decent price i wouldnt let it go.

Good Luck

[crazypete]

Granted this is a school project so try to get the project moved over to the cylinder head porting instead of the engine rebuild. A 70k motor has at _least_ 50k of life left in her if not more. My 127k original motor has oodles of life left in it. Just fill her up with motor flush and ring sealant and she's good to go. The cam and the heads make all the difference in power but if your looking for low end performance, the stock cam is built for that already so stick with it.

I'm not sure if the later heads interchange with the 79 heads but even some e7te's from a junkyard (87-93 5.0 ho stock heads) for $30-40 for the pair would add some umph over the 79 smoggers. Then port those as the school project if your teacher's willing. Rebuilding a 70k motor only makes sense if you're one of those 12-13 second track racers that need every ounce of strength from their motors. You'd gain back maybe 5-7 hp for all your time and effort from the better ring seal. If you port heads alone, you could gain 20-30 hp.

But someone help me out: do the newer heads fit to the older 302 blocks? I know the intakes interchange, thats why I think the heads might too. Maybe the roller setup uses different length pushrods??

If it does work: take your entire $300 budget and get a set of assembled gt-40p's and the "p" headers and then port those heads instead. MASSIVE hp gain above the 79 heads for maybe $3-400 +$175 for the headers (or get shortplugs and 90 degree wires and strip the boots off and rtv silicone them and then you dont need new headers).

Just what I would do. Porting cylinder heads yourself takes weeks with a dremel (trust me =) ) and would be a fitting project in and of itself and much more fruitful.

[bmxmon]

I was looking at the PAW ad in one of my magazines, and it has a deluxe master rebuild kit. It includes pistons, piston rings, rod and main bearings, engine gasket set, timing chain with set gears, oil pump, camshaft and lifters. Now, they have two different sets, for 68-81. One is $298, and has cast pistons. The other one is $459, which has Forged pistons. I am guessing is that the cast pistons would be fine, unless I had a power adder of some sort. I think the cast would be my best bet, because that would be my rebuild and then i could invest in a intake manifold and all that stuff sooner. What do you all think??? Is this a good strategy?? So it takes along time to port the heads?? I guess i could do that at home, if i had too. A semester is 4 1/2 months though (i think), so its a lengthy piece of time. Granted though its only for 55 mins a day.......

*also, is it recommended that i get new valves, and if i do, is there any machine work that needs to be done to replace them. thanks.

[88fivepointoh]

That is exactly what you need... Get that for sure.. you get everything new without the stops.. Just get the cylinders honed out and you will be in great shape.. check the crank and see if it needs to be ground.. As for porting, get yourself a dremel rotory and go nuts and smooth it all out and match the gasket openings to the head and manifold castings.. you'll have a decent motor and its a great learning experience!