My motor broke...

[Rick 91GT]

Well I went and got my bottle filled yesterday. Just needed a few inline fuses to complete the electric switched.

SO last night I was just cruisng up the road, looked over at my Autometer Mech oil guage and it said "0", I turned the car off and drifted. I pulled the line off the block to see if it was the guage, still no oil coming out of the block. After I got it trailered home and pulled the distributor it appears my ARP oil pump drive shaft broke after 150 miles.

I didn't even get to spray the N20 yet, just got the bottle filled this morning guess I won't be racing next weekend now at the 75/80 race.

[Fox Body]

Rick, sorry to here that man. Sucks. Glad it wasn't worse than that. Hope you get it fixed soon without any complications.

Your car still looks awesome.. I see you painted it silver. Really nice!

[82 GT]

I remember a few years ago, I built a WICKED 302. I installed ARP rod rods bolt for added insurance( or so I thought)
and about 3 months later, wouldn't you know, a rod bolt snapped!! It wiped out my $3000 engine!!
The speed shop that built my engine said "There's nothing I can do for ya. That stuff happens"
I was just cruising down the road when it happened too.
I've been a little skeptical of ARP ever since then. If I would have kept the factory rod bolts I would probably still have that engine today.

[PKRWUD]

I would trust my life to ARP products. I can't even begin to tell you the things I've seen them survive.

Just my nickle.

Take care,
-Chris

[ultraflo]

I understand your frustration... My old combo (stock crank, rods, hypereutectic pistons and and stock valves with aftermarket springs on fully ported E7's). I had a major catastrophy occur when I just picked up a friend to go cruise around... pulled out of the neighborhood and just half throttled it and heard a rattle and a LOUD clunk. Apparently, the exhaust valve broke and took out (split in half, rings held it together until removed from bore) the no. 1 piston. Upon further inspection, the rod and main bearings had some serious wear also (lots of launches on slicks on a 150 shot took its toll). The rod bearings were down into the copper part on the rod side of the bearing (as opposed to the cap side) on all 8 of em. I was due for a rebuild, but damn, I didn't expect it would grenade on me! ...not even spraying or a full throttle blast.

I still run the stock block... had it all checked out and it was good to go with a 4.030 bore.

Also, I'm with PKRWUD on the ARP being some good stuff... I run ARP hardware everywhere I can, however, I do run a Motorsport oil pump driveshaft...

Let us know how things work out for you and your 302... what it takes to get back on track.

And yes, Rick you have a very clean/nice GT... I dig the alum wing!

Good Luck

[Rick 91GT]

I agree ARP makes some great stuff, and for the shaft to break my Melling pump must have locked up, glad it didn't hurt my MSD dist or AFM cam. I have a new high volume pump here so I'm going to bust my *** and get it apart, as long as it was just the pump and shaft I'll have it up and running by weeks end. Then I can go test this N2O out on Sunday at the local meet I'm involved in.

[82 GT]

I'm sure ARP is an excellent company. I never said I didn't like them per say. I guess I'm just a little gun shy.
I just never understood why they would break like that on me under normal use.

[Five0]

I feel your pain, I too had a pump lock up and break a pump shaft. Looked like a twizler when I pulled it out! Mine ruined my old 302 short block be cause I did not catch it in time. I hope everything is ok with your motor and it is just the pump and shaft.

I also had a brand new roller lifter that failed under normal driving conditions and ruined my block and cam. Ford Motorsport said no warrantee on racing parts and will not even replace the defective lifters. I know they are a good company that a lot of people have good luck with but I will never buy anything from them again if I can get it from someone else. My car is still broke because I cannot afford to fix it.

Hey Rick why are you using a high volume oil pump? Is you motor set up for it with a little extra clearance? I have heard that can cause problems if not.

Maybe PKRWUD can correct me if I am wrong or if I am right maybe he can explain it a little better.

[Oldschoolpony]

there's nothing wrong with the oiling system (design) in a 302. The last thing you want to do is go to a high volume or pressure oil pump. Use the stock oil pump, or a stock (mellings) pump. The high volume pump creates alot of pressure on the oil pump shaft, and robs a little hp too. I pretzled 3 drive shafts, stock, motor sports and milidon. And wiped down to the brass in my mains. 2 very reputable builders told me the oil pump is at fault. A builder from John Devoraks shop and Dave B. (super dave) builds all of Lugos engines.
I got a blueprinted pump from lugo's and have twisted it to 7200 rpm and its been going strong.

Ohh, and Im with pkrwud on the ARP thing. There's none better. ever seen a 390 FE twist 6800 with stock crank and lemans rods. and do it for 30,000 miles. I built one and used all arp.from valve cover bolts to main studs. I sold it at 30,000 and bought my mustang.

[Rick 91GT]

Well I'll know what happened come Weds, I should have it apart and have inspected the damage by then.

As far as the Hi-Volume pump issue, that was the same thing I always thought, they add a lot of added stress to the shaft and guys twist them all the time. I really would like to make sure that oil is there up top.

With my motor hot and 10w40 I see about 58lbs of pressure and I shift my car at 6400rpms, I should be seeing a little more to be safe. I have the 7qt pan so I am not afraid of the pump sucking it dry but I want to ensure that there is oil to the componets at the high rpm, and since I had the pump I thought I'd swap it in. It is a FMS High Volume, should not increase the Pressure right? If not I guess I will look into a blue printed stock style pump, what exactly do they do to blue print them, and how much so they run?

FiveO- I here ya, I am glad I saw this as soon as it happened, I shut if off and drifted to a stop. I have a 351W that I planned to stroke and install, but I am moving in 5 weeks and that was going to be a winter project..not a current one.

I'll let you all know what I find

Thanks Guys

[Rick 91GT]

Guys check out this info I found on Mellings Web Site....it goes over the Hi-Volume pump and really states they should be fine, are we all caught up in the hype by saying they are a bad thing?

High Volume Pumps, Advantages, Myths & Fables


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most of the stock automobile engines are designed to operate from idle to 4500 RPM. The original volume and pressure oil pump will work fine in this type of application. As the demands on the engine increase so does the demands on the oiling system and pump.
The oil pump's most difficult task is to supply oil to the connecting rod bearing that is the farthest from the pump. To reach this bearing, the oil travels from three to four feet, turns numerous square corners thru small holes in the crankshaft to the rod bearing. The rod bearing doesn't help matters. It is traveling in a circle which means centrifugal force is pulling the oil out of the bearing.

A 350 Chevy has a 3.4811 stroke and a 2.111 rod journal. The outer edge of the journal travels 17.5311 every revolution. At 1000 RPM, the outer edge is traveling at 16.6 MPH and 74.7 MPH at 4500 RPM. If we take this engine to 6500 the outer edge is up to 107.9 and at 8500 it is 141.1 MPH. Now imagine driving a car around a curve at those speeds and you can feel the centrifugal force. Now imagine doing it around a circle with a 5.581, diameter.

The size of the gears or rotors determines the amount of oil a pump can move at any given RPM. Resistance to this movement creates the pressure. If a pump is not large enough to meet the demands of the engine, there will not be any pressure. Or if the demands of the engine are increased beyond the pumps capabilities there will be a loss of oil pressure. This is where high volume pumps come in; they take care of any increased demands of the engine.

Increases in the engine's oil requirements come from higher RPM, being able to rev faster, increased bearing clearances, remote oil cooler and/or filter and any combination of these. Most high volume pumps also have a increase in pressure to help get the oil out to the bearings faster.

That is what a high volume pump will do. Now let Is consider what it will not do.

It will not replace a rebuild in a worn-out engine. It may increase pressure but the engine is still worn-out.

It will not pump the oil pan dry. Both solid and hydraulic lifters have metering valves to limit flow of the oil to the top of the engine. If a pan is pumped dry, it is because the holes that drain oil back to the pan are plugged. If the high volume pump is also higher pressure, there will be a slight increase in flow to the top.

It will not wear out distributor gears. The load on the gear is directly related to the resistance to flow. Oil pressure is the measure of resistance to flow. The Ford 427 FE "side oiler" used a pump with relief valve set at 125 psi and it used a standard distributor gear. Distributor gear failures are usually caused by a worn gear on a new cam gear and/or worn bearings allowing misalignment.

It will not cause foaming of the oil. With any oil pump, the excess oil not needed by the engine is recirculated within the pump. Any additional foaming is usually created by revving the engine higher. The oil thrown from the rod bearings is going faster and causes the foaming. This is why high performance engines use a windage tray.

It will not cause spark scatter. Because of the pump pressure there is a load on the distributor gear. The number of teeth on the oil pump gears determine the number of impulses per revolution of the pump. In a SB Chevy there are seven teeth on each gear giving 14 impulses per revolution. At 6000 RPM the oil pump is turning 3000 RPM or 50 revolutions per second. To have an effect on the distributor, these impulses would have to vibrate the distributor gear through an intermediate shaft that has loose connections at both ends. Spark scatter is usually caused by weak springs in the points or dust inside the distributor cap.

High volume pumps can be a big advantage if used where needed. If installed in an engine that does not need the additional volume, they will not create a problem. The additional flow will be recirculated within the pump.

[ultraflo]

Thanks for the info Rick... appreciated!

I run a Mellings HV pump and the only problem I've had was a result of my forgetting to put assembly lube on a new dist gear... it wasn't the oil pumps fault by no means... and I haven't twisted any pump drive shafts either (knock on pkr-wood)

When I first fire up the stang I have 80psi... let it warm up(coolant temp 160 - 180) and rev it, it buries the pressure gauge at 100+ psi. When the oil temp gets to around 180 (via Autometer gauge) the pressure drops to around 60 psi and revs to 80psi. I am running some Valvoline Racing 50W at the moment... with a Moroso T-sump pan. I had the 50W sitting on the shelf so I'm using it... prolly change to a lighter oil later, but I'm staying with the Valvoline Racing stuff... The synthetic is good and all, but it finds its way out of the rear main among other places reving to/shifting at 7000 (on a stock block). Mobil 1 is some really good stuff, don't get me wrong... I use it in the Jerico (75w90), and use 10w30 in the truck I haul my car with... I use Valvoline 80w90 non-synthetic in the rear diff w/ the c-clip eliminators and haven't any problems with seepage out the ends as opposed to when I ran the Mobil 1... while I'm talking oil might as well touch on those areas as well.

If the HV robs a couple horses that's just fine with me... for the added protection I'll give up just a few hp... I'm still having fun where I'm at ET-wise now, so no big deal.

I'm just wondering what PKRWUD has to say about all this madness... he's got tons more experience than I, I'm just a young pup that's relatively new to all of this stuff, but I'm learning.

Again, thanks for the info....

[82 GT]

Originally posted by Oldschoolpony
there's nothing wrong with the oiling system (design) in a 302.

Chevy has the best oiling system....period. I am by no means a Cheverolet lover but they do have superior oiling systems.
Anybody that knows anything about engines knows this.

As far as the ARP thing goes, I SAID I had one bad experience with them. I wasn't implying that they are not any good.

[Oldschoolpony]

Ok, enough with the ARP. LOL
what I mean, on a street machine, there's reallly no reason to run a high volume pump. The 302 has more than enough in it to keep the top oiled. Unlilke the Older FE's which need all sorts of upgrades to their oiling system if you built it. The only rough spot in the 302's oiling system, and you can ask almost any engine builder) is that the pumps are of a poor design, by comparison to a gm pump.

Rick, call lugo's performance in Apopka, fla. The pump he set me up with has been a god send.lol. no more lump in the throat when i hit 7K on the tack and the oil hits 0. . 3 times with the high volume is enough to teach me. As far as the melling web site goes. Only a dunce would compare the oiling system of an FE engine to a windsor. Sales gimmick.. Thats my opinion, so dont start flamming.

[Rick 91GT]

You won't get any flames from me..I'm trying to soak in everyones info. How much was your pump from Lugo's?

Well I got the motor ready to pull out tomorrow when I come home, then I'll find out the damage, and hopefully fix it. I caught it as soon as the pressure dropped so I should be fine.

[Oldschoolpony]

I Think the pump was right around 100. Migth sound high, but cheaper than changing bearings. Hopefully when you tear down your motor, all youll find is a slightly scuffed bearing. I know on one of my mains, the 2nd time around, It wore the center down to just where you could see the brass. If naything, buy a set of bearings and put them in for safety sake.

[Rick 91GT]

Well I got it all apart it seems the ARP shaft just gave up to the ghost, the pump spins nice and free and the shaft broke right at the transititon point.

I'll have it all back up and running with the N20 before the end of the week, hit the track hopefully for some 10 sec ET's on Sunday.

[Rick 91GT]

here's a pic of the pump (topside)

[Rick 91GT]

Here's a pci of the underside of the pump (gears) nothing was in the pump or pickup screen except oil..so I think I'm safe.

[RPM427]

Hey Rick, Do you have any close up pics of that heat shield you made for the air filter? I am thinking about making one. I just picked up a C&L meter and 9" K&N to replace my BBK fender mount.

I also polished the C&L air tube. Will that help reflect radiant heat?