Need help with parts selections.

[70stang]

I need help matching parts for my rebuild. I have a 1970 Mustang convertible with a 351W, 3.70 Auburn posi-gear & an FMX Automatic. I want to add performance, but maintain drivability. I don't care about gas mileage. I would also like it to appear as origional as possible. I need to check my compression yet to see if I need new pistons and what the ratio is. I don't think I need new pistons though. I know I need to keep the 9.5:1 pistons due to cast-iron heads & detonation problems. I plan on doing a complete tear down, porting the heads & installing hardened seats. Any help with combinations and vendor names is appreciated. Here is what I have been looking at.

Headers......Hooker Super Comp
Exhaust......2 1/2" Dual w/ Flowmasters
Air Filter...K&N
Carb.........Holley 750cfm Dbl Pumper (Is this too much? I have a jet kit if needed.)
Intake.......Edelbrock Performer RPM (How does the Shelby Cobra intake compare?)
Rockers......Magnum Roller Rockers, 1.6 ratio
Springs......Need to match Cam
Valves.......Stainless Steel (Is it beneficial to change the valves?)
Pushrods.....Stainless Steel w/ hardened tips
Lifters......Hydraulic
Cam..........Hydraulic Comp Cams #35-238-3
Intake = .493 lift/218 duration @ 0.050 Exhaust = .500 lift/224 duration @ 0.050
-OR-
Hydraulic Comp Cams #35-418-3
Intake = .477 lift/219 duration @ 0.050
Exhaust = .510 lift/233 duration @ 0.050
(I think the second one may be too much.)
Timing Set...Double roller
Fuel Pump....High Volume
Oil Pump.....High volume w/ new pick up
Gaskets......Standard
Freeze Plugs.Standard
Gehrte Engines is going to do the head work, boil the block, intall new bearings, balance the crank & pistons, and do any cylinder work if necessary. Am I forgetting anything?
Thanks.

[NOS_Notch]

All your parts sound good but i would change these 2 and here's why.
1.7 r.r's instead of 1.6 (why not they're better)
MAC headers instead of hooker.
The h-pipe will have ball and socket connectors, the hooker headers do not.
You will have to cut the flange off the h-pipe and weld a new one on.(BBK also has the correct collector but more$$$)

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4.10's,long tubes & 75 shot...Goes 12.50's
Check it out at http://www.burnouts.webprovider.com

[MiracleMax]

Looks like a good street motor. The cam is a bit mild (even the second one). I dug out my not so trusty dyno sim and plugged in these numbers

351 Windsor V8 (.030 over)

357.2 cubic inches
9.50:1 comp ratio
750 cfm carb
Dual Plane manifold
Small headers (1-3/4) with mufflers
GT40p heads (stock flow numbers)
35-418-3 hyd cam

Peak HP: 311 @ 4500 rpm
Peak TQ: 391 @ 3000 rpm

The program can have upto a 10% error (kinda big for me seeing as it can go 30 hp either way, but it's not to bad for basic comparisions

BTW to figure what primary pipe size is needed for your application the formula is;

Primary Pipe Size=RPM x SCID/88200
RPM=Revolutions Per Minute
SCID=Single Cylinder Displacement (CID/8)

Unfortunately I don't have an accurate formula for primary pipe length or collector size, but this is handy none the less.

By the way things look you could go with an even more aggressive cam? A Hyd roller maybe?

I got my cylinder head flow numbers below. You might consider the GT40p heads instead of the ported 351 heads. They feature a more efficent combustion chamber/plug layout which might allow you to run a bit more timing. Especially with the headers installed? Maybe a half point or point more?

10:1 comp HP: 320 @ 4500 TQ: 400 @ 3000
10.5:1 comp HP: 325 @ 4500 TQ: 406 @ 3000

It looks like 10:1 would be the best way to go if you care to try?

The flow numbers for the GT40p heads came from the link below
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...ds/index.shtml

[70stang]

MiracleMax,

Cool web site! Now you've got me thinking. Can you suggest a roller cam for stock ported heads? Also, after looking at the link, maybe I should go to an aftermarket head. But I have a dilema. I want as much power as I can get, but I want to drive it to the nationals and other shows. How big of a cam can I use and maintain drivability? I also looked up the stock compression for a 60.4cc head and it lists a 10.7:1 piston. I definitely don't want to have to run racing fuel. I want to be able to run a high octane unleaded from the pump. So this is what I am thinking. Buy an aftermarket head, maybe have it ported; roller cam (need number); and 10.5:1 pistons (what's a good brand?). What do you think? What head would you use and why? Will I have detonation problems with the 10.5 pistons? Thanks in advance.

[MiracleMax]

>What do you think?
Hmmm... that depends? For a carburated engine with iron heads. a 10.7:1 motor is right at the edge. On hot days it'll ping (from my experience, My brother has a 10.5:1 carbed SB and for pump gas its on the edge) The reason being is the inexact nature of fuel/air distribution with a carb engine. All things being equal an injected engine can get away with more compression because fuel metering is more precise. For an aluminum headed motor this should be no sweat. Since its reccomended that you go a full point higher to recover some lost heat in the chamber. Interestingly on two identical engines all things being equal (everything including weight)with the only difference being the material from which the heads are constructed , the iron head engine will run faster since it leaves more heat in the combustion space. However the exact limit on compression is hard to target! Induction/Exhaust, Engine Tolerances, Head Design/Construction, and Piston Design/Construction all effect this. Thats why somebody can come along and say BS! my motor can only run on pump gas with a 7:1 comp ratio

>What head would you use and why?
Personally I am a fan of the AFR heads. Good flow with high velocity has a coupla benefits. The biggest being better torque and and fuel economy. sounds wierd on a performance engine, but heads that flow the same with bigger ports or slightly more with bigger ports tend to slow down the air/fuel mixture. This being the case torque is lower because less fuel and air is being rammed into the engine, plus the mixture can seperate with slower movement raising .BSFC numbers and in turn lowering fuel economy. And in turn a less homogenous mixture in the chamber can increase the chance for detonation.

> roller cam (need number)
Really the best advice here is to figure your whole combonation from the air cleaner to the exhaust, trans type, gear ratio and driving style. Then contact a cam company. I typically provide as much information as I can (including head flow numbers). The reason being, Rod to Stroke Ratio, Cylinder Head Flow, Compression, etc. has a big effect on cam choice. For example a 347 vs. a 351; The 347 will actually be more volumetrically efficent at lower RPMs due to the smaller R/S ratio since the piston speed is higher as it is being yanked away from the chamber. Conversely a 351 will be a better high speed motor since it has more dwell time at TDC due to a longer R/S ratio. In any event the two engines will react differently to the same camshaft installed in each motor. However if I was going to pick a cam based on the what you are building, I'd go with a 35-442-8 Comp cams magnum hyd roller retrofit

All things being equal to my first try with the wiz bang miracle machine;

750 cfm carb
Perfromer RPM Intake
GT40p Heads
10:1 comp
1-3/4 long tubes
35-442-8 Comp Cams Magnum Hyd Roller

HP: 390 @ 5500 RPM
TQ: 428 @ 4500 RPM

With the AFR 185 cc heads
HP: 470 @ 6000 RPM
TQ: 465 @ 4500 RPM

(Remeber these sim dyno's are useful for broad comparisons; 1. because trash in, equals trash out so modeling the engine accurately is important and in this case its not to hard. 2. These programs have to make a few assumptions and the results are always the best possible power for a combination)

[MercDude]

MiracleMax, is that a dyno sim?? I think i have that exact one!! Is it called desktop dyno?? Well... i checked out an ungodly amount of cams ie: comp, crane, edelbrock, ford, lunati, am i missing any?? to hopefully upgrade my 302 from it's edelbrock performer 448/472" lift cam... but to no avail... i can't really find any better ones!! I too take into consideration that my 302 right now is "supposedly" making 350hp at 5500rpm and maxtq is 380 at 4000... now this isn't too off (know from driving that engine's max pulling is to 5500 but can still rev hard til 6000)

70stang (using before mentioned computer dyno) - i found that basically all but comps magnum cams suck a$$ and crane isn't too bad... lunati has VERY promising cams that pulled very nicely on the dyno and ford has two cams... same as edelbrock's performer and torquer... both are excellent for street performance and all of edelbrock cams are basically well rounded performance cams that will do well with your combo. I would suggest a little less on the cam side... possibly the more radical ford cam or the street/strip lunati cams will do nicely for your app. for advice, i wouldn't do 10.5:1 cpr... go 9.5:1 at max... acount in the milling of heads/engine block and any future head work that might be done... each mill increases head cpr. I can tell you that the performer intake sucks a$$ compared to the old shelby which i'm running now... and i was going to buy the RPM intake, but a comparision of the intake passages and the runner size has led me to shelby (actually a repo by edelbrock but the same ) and i WASN"T DISAPPOINTED!! BTW, the shelby didn't make an intake for the 351 that i know of... A VERY good intake to consider is the weind stealth... everyone has been raving about it, and my brother is running it on his more hot 302 and it does all kinds of great things for the engine - low torque, hi horsepower. FLOWS ARE A MUST!! I had dynomax's turbos, and i was disappointed with the sound, so i switched over to 3 chamber flows and the sound is incredible! Plus i gained like 3mpg and hp/tq!! BEAUTIFULL!! Also, cut off exhaust before axle and have small dumps directed down... the loss of weight and extra pipe to blow through will make your car feel like 15 extra hp has been added... I put on hookersupercomps and DAMN!! Those things are singularily the most power for money a guy can buy. I noticed about a 70hp increase over stock manifolds (but you probably know how bad stock manifolds are ) k'n is a very good idea and you will notice small improvement... for your combo, your heads will probably be fine, valve size could be made to 1.90i 1.60e and that would help rpm revving and power... just need port/pocket work to be made excellent and worthy of the rest of the engine's performance. a change to a less radical rear end would be important to maintain driveability and reliability. more gear = more rpm --> more wear. Carb is a little more up to opinion... but remember, you do have a 3speed auto and that means if you go too big on carb you'll loose on low end power that will get your vehicle into motion. I would suggest something more like a 650holley dual feed vacuum secondary. A double pumper is too much for an auto street car and will hurt performance. If you had a stick, the double pumper would be an excellent choice. If you can, a change to a looser converter would be adviseable... something along the lines of 2300-2400rpm. Deffinately add a shift kit!! If you want to smoke some serious stick equiped cars, go with a NICE transgo shift kit and enjoy the second/third gear tire spins... if you EVER get the chance and if available, try going to a low gear kit... will drop rear end gears ratio significantly until third where it's normal. When done i can imagine at least a 13second car and you will be looking at least 375hp/410tq at flywheel... sounds like one badass ford!! Have fun stomping local camaro a$s.

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'63 Merc Meteor hardtop, warm 302, C4 auto, 2.25" Flowmaster Exhaust,
'65 289 heads - ported/chevy valves, performer cam, edelbrock f4a intake, full length hookers, 600 holley, roller rockers, k'n, 10.5:1 hyperutetic pistons... mid 13's hoping to reach into 12's

[MiracleMax]

Yeah Desktop Dyno 2000 and Desktop Dyno's Cam Disk 2000. I had the old DDyno and found it harder to model engines. Mainly because the cylinder head air flow could not be quantified. It was easy to generate 1000 hp 302s with a tunnel ram, stepped headers 14:1 comp and a huge roller cam DDyno2000 is more accurate because you can define airflow. Also with the DD Cam2000 they have a butt load of cams (3500)on the disk taking the gueswork out of the event numbers and what kind of lifter model to use. My next step is to get a copy of Dynomation (600.00 bucks ) and learn how to use it. Its the same program they used to build the BXR manifold.

[MiracleMax]

BTW, the DD2000 also lists VE! which can help in carb selection. Which on the GT40p engine is in the region of 90% So if your looking at airflow at peak power. the formula would be;

Carb Size=(((CIDxRPM)/3456)xVE)
CID=Cubic Inch Displacement of Engine
RPM=Revolutions Per Minute
VE=Volumetric Efficiency

(((357.2x5500)/3456)x.90)=512 cfm

Thats at peak power, however you might want to base it more on where power takes a nose dive at 6500 rpm where it would be 605 cfm. Especially based on Merc's reccomendation of using a smaller carb with an auto. Also however on a dualplane manifold you can get away with more carb (divided plenum cuts CFM in half) and the signal is stronger to the carb than an open plenum.

[MercDude]

MiracleMax, where can a CA guy purchase such a beautiful and VERY useful piece of software??

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'63 Merc Meteor hardtop, warm 302, C4 auto, 2.25" Flowmaster Exhaust,
'65 289 heads - ported/chevy valves, performer cam, edelbrock f4a intake, full length hookers, 600 holley, roller rockers, k'n, 10.5:1 hyperutetic pistons... mid 13's hoping to reach into 12's

[MiracleMax]

I got the DesckTop Dyno 2000 from AutoZone and the Cam Disk 2 from Motion Software directly.

Motion Software
535 West Lambert Building .E Brea
California 92821-3911
714-255-2931
Fax 714-255-7596

[70stang]

Wow! So much information, it might take me awhile to let it all soak in. I have done everything else on my car except the engine and tranny. Didn't know sqaut when I started. This is just like starting all over again!
Anyway, who is AFR? I called World Products today to inquire about the Windsor Sr. heads and they suggested I wait a couple of weeks (like I would have decided by then) to get their new heads. They are a Rousch Signature series. Basically a Windsor Sr. with improved flow. They claim 200cc intake/64cce exhaust flowing 260cfm's at 0.500 lift out of the box. They recommended a 0.550 lift hydraulic roller cam, 10:1 Weisco or TRW flat top pistons, 1.6 roller rockers, and a 750 cfm carb. They say you can port the heads to flow 310 to 320 cfm's. $600 for a fully assembled set. These are cast iron by-the-way. Comp Cams suggested a 35-452-8 hydraulic roller cam for this setup with a 2400 stall.
MercDude, I did find a Shelby intake for a 351 at Mustangs Unlimited. It has the CS logo and Cobra forged in it. I need to do some checking on it though. Hold on to your wallet though, it costs about $350 bucks! Do you know where I would be able to get info about it? I didn't know that CS ever made one for a 351 either, but it must be if it has the logo?
I don't want to sound like a broken record, but you guys are the only ones that I've found to give solid info without trying to sell me something. So what do you think now? Am I getting overboard compared to my driveability intent? I do think that I will need to add frame stiffeners. Would I need to add anything else? I did neglect to tell you that my car is a convertible. I really don't drive it much. Most of the time I am within 50 miles of home, but I have this desire to drive it to the nationals some day.
I am also interested in the dyno sim program.
Thanks.

[MercDude]

Those size of heads will hurt your take-off power in an auto... you DO NOT need that large of heads on your 351! I thought of going to aftermarket heads as well-my brother got windsor jr's pocket ported and the adjustment in the sparkplugs made it impossible to have normal sparkplug boots.... he had to go to porcellin sparkplug boots to keep from headers melting them. Just some heads up... i'll write to you more about this subject... delay on the windsor sr's ... TOO big for what you want and the cam is too big for decent power in low-mid range... and carb is too big... your car weighs about 3400lbs... too heavy for those mods

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'63 Merc Meteor hardtop, warm 302, C4 auto, 2.25" Flowmaster Exhaust,
'65 289 heads - ported/chevy valves, performer cam, edelbrock f4a intake, full length hookers, 600 holley, roller rockers, k'n, 10.5:1 hyperutetic pistons... mid 13's hoping to reach into 12's

[MiracleMax]

Air FLow Research
http://www.airflowresearch.com/

They just hit the Ford market,but have been doing Chevy stuff for years (around thirty). In any event World Products has some good stuff (I had originallly planned to go with the big Windsor aluminum heads from them but I saw an ad for AFR and checked out the data on them. I was impressed by the flow. the same as the World Products heads but with a 15cc smaller port. However Westech has flowed the AFR's at about 20 cfm less (still 260 cfm though like the big Windsor heads your looking at, just with a 185 cc intake port vs. 200 cc) Anyway I don't see where you could go wrong with the Roush Windsors. 260 cfm is still good for something like 550 hp. Where you want to compare heads is all the way through lift points. Peak flow is handy but if a head flows better at the low and mid lift points (with the same or smaller intake port) the head is gonna have more average HP & TQ. and indicates a more efficent design.

See this is why you talk to the experts

Sim Engine

750 cfm carb
AFR 185cc heads
Dual Plane Intake
1-3/4 Long tubes
10:1 comp

HP: 478 @ 6000 rpm (vs 470)
TQ: 463 @ 4500 rpm (vs 465)

Bit more HP but only a loss of 2 ft/lbs. of torque. I haven't compared both cams through the whole RPM range but I'm pretty sure they made a better suggestion

[70stang]

I took your advice and looked into the AFR 185 heads. Pretty impressive. The AFR heads flowed better than the Windsor heads throughout the curve and with smaller ports. World Products doesn't have published flow data on the Roush series yet. Comp Cams suggested the 35-442-8 roller cam. They also said that this cam has a flat torque curve maxing out at 3,800 to 3,900 rpm's. HP range is 2,000 to 5,800.

The AFR heads create one problem though. Since they are aluminum, what needs to be done (if anything) to the compression ratio?

What's your take on MercDude's comments? You can e-mail me at scottalanmiller@hotmail.com. MercDude, I am interested in your comments. I haven't decided on anything yet, and probably won't for a month or more. Keep your comments comming.

Right now the car has a 650cfm Holley with vacuum secondaries, single feed, and electric choke. I would have to trade with a friend for the 750cfm. Another option is to have another friend redo the 650cfm carb. He has a flow bench and designs carbs for a living. He rebuilds carbs on the side.

I think I will make a trip to AutoZone this weekend. I hope this software doesn't cost much; it would be fun to play with and learn.

[11Sec_Lx]

Well, I can vouch for the 165's, mine are excellent! Customer service from AFR was excellent, just in case your considering buying from them...

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John D. Hartman
93' Coupe N/A 11.97 @ 112
(1st time out w/AFR heads!)http://www.geocities.com/jdaniel1075/johnswebpage.html?974011190170
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/jdaniel1075?d&.flabel=fld3&.src=ph

[MiracleMax]

Generally you can go up a point in compression to offset the effects of heat rejection by the aluminum heads (in your case 10.5:1 shouldn't be a problem). If your still giddy about detonation. When the engine is being assembled a few things can be done to minimize this; Polish the pistons to remove sharp edges, minimize the piston to deck clearence (as close to zero as possible) and look for pistons with a higher ring package so that crevice volume is minimized. (For that matter you might also want to consider a hypereutectic piston since it fits tighter in the bore when cold, however they don't tend to hold up to abuse as well as a forged piston. BTW if the piston is fitted properly,a forged piston will fit just as tight when the engine is warmed up). Try to get as much compression with a flat top piston as you can since flat tops or reverse dome pistons (expensive) tend to be the more efficient piston designs. Beyond this any thing that will keep the fuel/air misture homogenized will reduce the tendancy for the engine to detonate.

[70stang]

I went to AutoZone today, and they didn't have a clue as to what I was looking for. Is Motion Software the creator? I'll check them out later.

[MiracleMax]

Also forgot, a good water pump too. Like an Edelbrock pump. Higher block pressures tend to squeeze out bubbles and steam pockets which collect/form in the heads and block. This reduces hot spots in the engine allowing more compression also. That said you can also get away with more coolant temp (ie 180 deg thermostat rather than a 160, etc). the main purpose of which is to hepl make more power. A hotter running engine actually produces more power than a cooler running one. Which is really makes me wonder about all those chip kits you see coming with 160 degree thermostats! All they are trying to do is fool the computer into running rich mode. Big whoop. The down side is a cooler running engine running richer which only accelerates things like wear and oil contaminant build up! Well anywhosit. Make sure your entire cooling system is up to snuff or you might have to run a cooler thermostat to stave off the effects of a more powerful engine. Which ultimately won't do squat once the entire cooling system has been saturated with heat!

[MercDude]

Ok... here's the biggest question that will dictate where and how you are going to build the 351W. What do you want? Do you want a car with super sluggish low end, but bada$$ mid-upper rpm power? Do you want all round bada$$ness? Do you want a torquer? Are you going to race on street? Is that primarily where you like to race? Do you want to stomp chevy arse stoplight to stoplight?? Are you REALLY serious about racing? Do you want the car for weekends or are you going to drive it to work once and a while? The answers to these questions will dictate what type of heads/cam/intake/gears/trans you will want. Just write back and i'll give you my Honest to God opinion on the whole thing... I might not be the most experienced racer among this place, but i have a pretty damn good idea what it takes to make a carbed engine run STRONG and still make 17mpg in the city... just take a look at my sig.

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'63 Merc Meteor hardtop, warm 302, C4 auto, 2.25" Flowmaster Exhaust,
'65 289 heads - ported/chevy valves, performer cam, edelbrock f4a intake, full length hookers, 600 holley, roller rockers, k'n, 10.5:1 hyperutetic pistons... mid 13's hoping to reach into 12's

[MercDude]

Ok... let me finish what i was trying to say in the first place... ok... the Windsor Sr.'s are a little big IMO. I thought that i would want to go with the large aftermarket heads as well... but destiny didn't allow that... so i'm stuck with ported/chevy valve '65 289 heads. Now... my bro has the edelbrock torquer cam/stealth intake/ and ported windsor jr. heads. You would think that his combo would really haul as$... and it does! But, IMO a '65 falcon should pull much harder then a '63 meteor due to the weight factor. But because i have those nice squinted chambers and medium sized 1.84i 1.50e valves, my car has a hellish mid range. Which IMO from driving both cars, seems to be more important then an awesome top end. His combo doesn't start really pulling until 4K... mine starts at about 3500. true, his car PROBABLY is faster, but not by much and not until after those stoplights have come and gone! So... if you want a bada$$ racer, go with the big heads and cam, but for street stomping and driving, go sligtly conservative - which is realitive - (especially if you asked my father about this subject)

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'63 Merc Meteor hardtop, warm 302, C4 auto, 2.25" Flowmaster Exhaust,
'65 289 heads - ported/chevy valves, performer cam, edelbrock f4a intake, full length hookers, 600 holley, roller rockers, k'n, 10.5:1 hyperutetic pistons... mid 13's hoping to reach into 12's