Difference???

7SecYaRight · 11-08-2002, 12:03 AM

I was just wondering what the difference between 302/351W blocks And 302/351M...I know "w" stands for windsor, but what does "M" stand for??

Somebody please school me.
Thank you,
Tom

Coupe Devil · 11-08-2002, 12:18 AM

Windsor vs. Modified 101

Well your right, the "W" stands for Windsor, The "M" stands for Modified. Which to my knowledge ( which isnt much but I'll try to help). The 351 "M" is a Destroked 400c.i.d. motor if im not mistaken. That just means the crank was turned some way to get the less Cubic inches??? Someone correct me if im wrong.

Bradley

Im sure there is someone else here who can give a better more detailed description but thats what I know.

HotRoddin · 11-08-2002, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7SecYaRight
I was just wondering what the difference between 302/351W blocks And 302/351M...I know "w" stands for windsor, but what does "M" stand for??

Somebody please school me.
Thank you,
Tom

Difference between a 302 and a 351W is the 351 has a taller deck and a longer stroke ... the W stands for Windsor foundry, its where the blocks were cast (different place than the 302's which aren't actually windsors, although they are both refered to as windsors because they are the same family of engine)
Difference between a 302 and a 351M is alot ... don't know what the M stands for so i'll go with pony power but the 351M engine is from the cleveland family ...very similar block and heads to a 351Cleveland

PKRWUD · 11-08-2002, 01:12 AM

The 351M is a Cleveland 400 block with a 351W crank.

Junk engines.

Take care,
ÅChris

HotRoddin · 11-08-2002, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PKRWUD
The 351M is a Cleveland 400 block with a 351W crank.

Junk engines.

Take care,
ÅChris

Yes ... sorry i left that out ... don't try to modify a 351M, you'll be pounding money down a rat hole, Junk with a capital J

HotRoddin · 11-08-2002, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PKRWUD
The 351M is a Cleveland 400 block with a 351W crank.

Junk engines.

Take care,
ÅChris

Chris while we're on the subject ... what is it about the M motor that makes it so unsuitable for Hi Po aplications ?? i've been told they are a 100 times by a 100 different people but never told why ? Bad blocks, bad oiling, bad cooling what ?

PKRWUD · 11-08-2002, 07:35 PM

Extremely low nickle content in the blocks, and difficult to find parts for, are the two reasons I won't own one.

Take care,
ÅChris

84LX89GT · 11-08-2002, 08:05 PM

This is what i've read:
Windsor engines, 302-351 windsor. made in windsor canada, 351W has a taller deck height than the 302, both are 4.00" bore, 302 has 3.0" stroke, 351 has 3.5" stroke.
the 302 has 2.25" main journals while the 351 has 3" main journals. bore spacing is the same.

W is Windsor
C is Cleveland
M is Modified Cleveland

351C, 351M, and 400M all have the same bore spacing as the windsor blocks (4.38"). the 351M engine has 2.988" main journal diameter while the 351 has 2.749 main diameter. the deck height of the "M' engines is taller than the 351C engine. The 302 Cleveland engine i've read has a Windsor style bottom end, with Cleveland canted valve cylinder heads. the reason the 302 boss had a windsor bottom end is because the oiling design of the Cleveland is ackward and it lubricates (this is what i've heard) the camshaft before the bottom end and i think there's alot of problems with the actual oiling of the camshaft as well. the windsor engine's bottom end was pretty stout so they used that for the trans am 302C engine.

I've heard people so you shouldn't use Cleveland engines in general for high performance use because of the oiling, but there are lots of publicized machining fixes for those problems. You don't want to use the M engines for high RPM use because of not only the oiling problem, but because the rod angle of the 400 is pretty bad (4.00" bore, 4.00" stroke...compramised deck height because of block design).
The Cylinder heads of the clevelands are all canted and promote lots of air flow, even the 2 barrel heads on the M engines. the intake valves are 2.1?" on the 2 barrel heads, and they have i believe 1.8" exhaust valves. The Cleveland design was flawed because they had the awesome heads, but poor bottom end, so you couldn't really utilize the RPM potential of the heads.

Properly built, a Cleveland or Modified engine would scream and little money would have to be put into the heads to flow ALOT of air, but you'd have to do something with the oiling system to handle any kind of high RPM use.

I believe this information is correct, alot of the block measurements i got out of a Ford Racing catalog,

7SecYaRight · 11-08-2002, 08:53 PM

Thanks, that makes my engine choice a whole lot easier.

Tom

PKRWUD · 11-09-2002, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 84LX89GT
This is what i've read:
Windsor engines, 302-351 windsor. made in windsor canada, 351W has a taller deck height than the 302, both are 4.00" bore, 302 has 3.0" stroke, 351 has 3.5" stroke.
the 302 has 2.25" main journals while the 351 has 3" main journals. bore spacing is the same.

W is Windsor
C is Cleveland
M is Modified Cleveland

351C, 351M, and 400M all have the same bore spacing as the windsor blocks (4.38"). the 351M engine has 2.988" main journal diameter while the 351 has 2.749 main diameter. the deck height of the "M' engines is taller than the 351C engine.

There is no such thing as a 302 Windsor. The only small block pushrod V8 that was made at the Windsor plant was the 351W. The 302's were built at the Cleveland plant. The confusion comes because the design of the 351W was similar to the 302"C".

The 351M is nothing more than a 400C that has been modified to accept a 351W crank. When the Cleveland plant stopped producing the 351C, there was too much demand for that size engine for the Windsor plant to handle, so they created the 351M to make up the difference.

Take care,
~Chris

MEDIK418 · 11-09-2002, 01:23 AM

A little more useless information on the 351-M. It started out as a 400-M and in an effort to produce a "smog motor" inexpensively for the larger generation Bronco in 1978, Ford decided to destroke it to a 351. It's a big block motor where the 351-C is a small block. (bellhousing bolt patterns) The 400 has the longest rods in the history of Ford engines, even longer than the 460. This makes it a VERY torquey motor way down low and this is a good thing since they really don't make good performance engines. . . .EXCEPT in big 4X4's. I have one in our 79 Bronco and for lazy power you can't beat one. Oiling isnt' a problem until you try for 8-9000 rpm on a continuous basis. FYI, all you have to do to make a 351_ into a 400 is swap out the crank and pistons. (I know because I just did it this Summer. . .cheap stroker)
One other thing, the Boss 302 was simply a 5.0 with Cleveland heads. Something you can do today with a half inch drill and a Clevor intake.

11-08-2002, 12:03 AM	#1
7SecYaRight Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 60	Difference??? I was just wondering what the difference between 302/351W blocks And 302/351M...I know "w" stands for windsor, but what does "M" stand for?? Somebody please school me. Thank you, Tom

11-08-2002, 12:18 AM	#2
Coupe Devil Moderator Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Myrtle Beach SC Posts: 1,643	Windsor vs. Modified 101 Well your right, the "W" stands for Windsor, The "M" stands for Modified. Which to my knowledge ( which isnt much but I'll try to help). The 351 "M" is a Destroked 400c.i.d. motor if im not mistaken. That just means the crank was turned some way to get the less Cubic inches??? Someone correct me if im wrong. Bradley Im sure there is someone else here who can give a better more detailed description but thats what I know. __________________ 1990 GT, 347, TFS TW Heads, TFS Cam, TFS Track heat, Twin turbos, FMIC, T5. Built Ford Tough Moderator

11-08-2002, 01:12 AM	#4
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	The 351M is a Cleveland 400 block with a 351W crank. Junk engines. Take care, ÅChris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

11-08-2002, 07:35 PM	#7
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Extremely low nickle content in the blocks, and difficult to find parts for, are the two reasons I won't own one. Take care, ÅChris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

11-08-2002, 08:05 PM	#8
84LX89GT Mustangs Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 1,938	This is what i've read: Windsor engines, 302-351 windsor. made in windsor canada, 351W has a taller deck height than the 302, both are 4.00" bore, 302 has 3.0" stroke, 351 has 3.5" stroke. the 302 has 2.25" main journals while the 351 has 3" main journals. bore spacing is the same. W is Windsor C is Cleveland M is Modified Cleveland 351C, 351M, and 400M all have the same bore spacing as the windsor blocks (4.38"). the 351M engine has 2.988" main journal diameter while the 351 has 2.749 main diameter. the deck height of the "M' engines is taller than the 351C engine. The 302 Cleveland engine i've read has a Windsor style bottom end, with Cleveland canted valve cylinder heads. the reason the 302 boss had a windsor bottom end is because the oiling design of the Cleveland is ackward and it lubricates (this is what i've heard) the camshaft before the bottom end and i think there's alot of problems with the actual oiling of the camshaft as well. the windsor engine's bottom end was pretty stout so they used that for the trans am 302C engine. I've heard people so you shouldn't use Cleveland engines in general for high performance use because of the oiling, but there are lots of publicized machining fixes for those problems. You don't want to use the M engines for high RPM use because of not only the oiling problem, but because the rod angle of the 400 is pretty bad (4.00" bore, 4.00" stroke...compramised deck height because of block design). The Cylinder heads of the clevelands are all canted and promote lots of air flow, even the 2 barrel heads on the M engines. the intake valves are 2.1?" on the 2 barrel heads, and they have i believe 1.8" exhaust valves. The Cleveland design was flawed because they had the awesome heads, but poor bottom end, so you couldn't really utilize the RPM potential of the heads. Properly built, a Cleveland or Modified engine would scream and little money would have to be put into the heads to flow ALOT of air, but you'd have to do something with the oiling system to handle any kind of high RPM use. I believe this information is correct, alot of the block measurements i got out of a Ford Racing catalog, __________________ 2005 Suzuki Hayabusa GSX1300-R 1980 Ford Thunderbird - 255 V8 ported heads, 5.0L ported stock headers, O.R. H-pipe and Flowmaster 2-chambers, dual roller timing chain hi-po Mack Truck hood emblem 1985 Mustang GT 5.0L T5, F-303, GT40p, headers, off-road h, flowmasters, MSD stuff, etc. Sold 02/06/04 1989 Mustang GT ET: 13.304@102.29 mph (5-24-03) Sold - 1998 Mustang Cobra coupe, 1/4 mile - street tires: 13.843@103.41 (bone stock)

11-08-2002, 08:53 PM	#9
7SecYaRight Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 60	Thanks, that makes my engine choice a whole lot easier. Tom

11-09-2002, 01:23 AM	#11
MEDIK418 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Amarillo, Texas, USA Posts: 780	A little more useless information on the 351-M. It started out as a 400-M and in an effort to produce a "smog motor" inexpensively for the larger generation Bronco in 1978, Ford decided to destroke it to a 351. It's a big block motor where the 351-C is a small block. (bellhousing bolt patterns) The 400 has the longest rods in the history of Ford engines, even longer than the 460. This makes it a VERY torquey motor way down low and this is a good thing since they really don't make good performance engines. . . .EXCEPT in big 4X4's. I have one in our 79 Bronco and for lazy power you can't beat one. Oiling isnt' a problem until you try for 8-9000 rpm on a continuous basis. FYI, all you have to do to make a 351_ into a 400 is swap out the crank and pistons. (I know because I just did it this Summer. . .cheap stroker) One other thing, the Boss 302 was simply a 5.0 with Cleveland heads. Something you can do today with a half inch drill and a Clevor intake. __________________ 1986 four-eyed LX coupe, 358 Cleveland, Tremec TKO600/centerforce clutch, dish cut Probe forged pistons, comp cams hyd.roller cam, .579/.588@224/230, Edel.performer, 670 holley street avenger, CPR custom built long tubes, ported and polished 4bbl heads, manley valves, beehive springs, MSD peo-billet dist/MSD6AL, fluidamper, 5 lug conv. with 17x8 bullits there's more but it's still not finished yet. Oh, and the oldest boy is turning his 89 GT into a FFR cobra this next summer.

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