Main girdle or windage tray or both?

Fulcrum · 10-28-2003, 03:45 PM

I'm new to the forum and would like to say hello. What brought me here is a quest for knowledge on Ford 302's. I am currently collecting parts. So far I have a set of KB Silvo-lit .030 pistons, Roush 180 cast iron heads, Manley Racemaster 1.90/1.66 valves and a Doug Herbert Cam #CF4N. Oh yeah and a '79 Mustang 5.0 garage queen with a '80 Mustang spare parts car along side it. My question's are: I understand from days long past that the bottom end of the 302 is a bit weak when compared to some other engine blocks. I see that a Steel Main Girdle is available through the catalogs. I also understand that a windage tray will increase performance. I intend to use the stock Crank and rods reinforced with ARP Bolts. Can I install the Main Girdle and the windage tray? or is it a one or the other thing as i suspect it may be. I have overhauled several engines before but this is my first "performace orintated" job. Thanks!

302 LX Eric · 10-28-2003, 05:08 PM

You can use both a girdle and windage tray. I'm running the DSS Main Support System and their Windage Pro Tray - both made of 6061 T6 aluminum, not steel. DSS's theory on using aluminum vs. steel is that the aluminum absorbs engine harmonics much better than steel and it's plenty strong.

Good luck, and welcome to Mustang Works!

E

VeNuM · 10-28-2003, 07:01 PM

I think the idea behind it is if you crack the block, the girdle saves your rotating assembly, which steel would be better than. Aluminum would not hold up. I'm putting a steel one on mine because I do not completely believe in the "absorb" theory and I'm more worried about my rotating assembly. ~Brian

VeNuM · 10-28-2003, 07:05 PM

Btw, definately run both a girdle of some sort and a windage tray! ~Brian

BilLster · 10-28-2003, 09:54 PM

both they serve diffrent function's they just live around the same place.

Jeff Chambers · 10-29-2003, 07:39 AM

If you do go with a windage tray, try to find a screened tray like the Moroso or Canton units. I've actually stopped using windage trays in my motors as we've found that they can actually cost you HP. We've proven this on th engine dyno. With a Canton 7-qt pan on my engines we've seen as much a 7hp more without the windage tray, presumably because the tray was bouncing the oil back onto the crank rather than allowing it to be thrown into the deep pan. Just a thought.

Fulcrum · 10-29-2003, 09:56 AM

WOW! Thanks for all the info guys, most of my aquantances are die-hard chevy fans and won't talk Ford. Yet, I've always had the best luck with Fords. 'Eric, I had never seen or heard of the aluminum type. There may be something to that harmonic idea but wouldn't a good Harmonic dampner and balanced flywheel take care of that? Aluminum remains something to consider, whats the cost and where could I find that setup? I agree that there is no getting over the rigid strength of steel. I just wasn't sure if they both would fit. BTW,I also intend on using the stock oil pan. Is clearence a problem if I install both? As for the windage tray; Jeff, I can see where the screened type would have its advantages in regared to oil return but I thought the main purpose was to increase Hp by reducing the effect of the crank "splashing" through the oil. I was surprised to see that your dyno test actually showed a loss of Hp. Did your dyno also show a difference between the screen, or louvered varities or did ya'll get that far with it?

302 LX Eric · 10-29-2003, 11:04 AM

The website for DSS is www.dssracing.com

E

red82gt · 10-29-2003, 08:46 PM

I wouldn't bother using a main girdle, unless you have expensive internals (steel crank, expensive rods, etc.). It won't stop the block from cracking, it'll only act as a seat belt to save the internals. The 5.0L ford block isn't the toughest out there, but it's no porcelain doll either. I wouldn't worry about the block until you're making over 500hp, by then you'll want to swap out the KB's for some better forged units and then you can add a girdle.

Rev · 10-31-2003, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Chambers
If you do go with a windage tray, try to find a screened tray like the Moroso or Canton units. I've actually stopped using windage trays in my motors as we've found that they can actually cost you HP. We've proven this on th engine dyno. With a Canton 7-qt pan on my engines we've seen as much a 7hp more without the windage tray, presumably because the tray was bouncing the oil back onto the crank rather than allowing it to be thrown into the deep pan. Just a thought.

So you actually get more RWHP without the Canton tray than with it? Any experience with the crank scraper? I have both and am veryu curious. I haven't made any back to back dyno pulls, but just assumed the tray and scraper actually worked as advertised.

Rev

Jeff Chambers · 10-31-2003, 07:51 AM

My Canton Pro-Pan has a built-in scraper. The tests we've done were on an engine dyno, not a chassis dyno. Results are much more repeatable on the engine dyno => less variables. The screened tray did better than a solid/louvered tray, but still wasn't as good as no tray at all.

drudis · 11-04-2003, 04:51 PM

I did the aluminum girdle, mostly cause I got it from a friend cheap...
Wont go into the argument of aluminum/steel, but IMOHO anything is better than nothing.
Also, it wont really make a difference in the mains till you start pushing closer to 500rwhp, which I was at 425rwhp and plan on getting closer to the 500rwhp mark this winter.
As for windage tray, if I knew now, I would have put one in last summer. Will the next time the oilpan comes off this winter.

10-28-2003, 03:45 PM	#1
Fulcrum Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Farmers Branch, Tx Posts: 46	Main girdle or windage tray or both? I'm new to the forum and would like to say hello. What brought me here is a quest for knowledge on Ford 302's. I am currently collecting parts. So far I have a set of KB Silvo-lit .030 pistons, Roush 180 cast iron heads, Manley Racemaster 1.90/1.66 valves and a Doug Herbert Cam #CF4N. Oh yeah and a '79 Mustang 5.0 garage queen with a '80 Mustang spare parts car along side it. My question's are: I understand from days long past that the bottom end of the 302 is a bit weak when compared to some other engine blocks. I see that a Steel Main Girdle is available through the catalogs. I also understand that a windage tray will increase performance. I intend to use the stock Crank and rods reinforced with ARP Bolts. Can I install the Main Girdle and the windage tray? or is it a one or the other thing as i suspect it may be. I have overhauled several engines before but this is my first "performace orintated" job. Thanks!

10-28-2003, 05:08 PM	#2
302 LX Eric or '331 LX Eric' Join Date: Jan 1999 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 2,142	You can use both a girdle and windage tray. I'm running the DSS Main Support System and their Windage Pro Tray - both made of 6061 T6 aluminum, not steel. DSS's theory on using aluminum vs. steel is that the aluminum absorbs engine harmonics much better than steel and it's plenty strong. Good luck, and welcome to Mustang Works! E __________________ 1991 5.0 LX Coupe - 40,750 miles 331 cu. in. / Tremec 3550 / BFG Drag Radials 12.22 @ 114.31 mph - w/1.89 60'

10-28-2003, 07:01 PM	#3
VeNuM Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Downers Grove, IL Posts: 464	I think the idea behind it is if you crack the block, the girdle saves your rotating assembly, which steel would be better than. Aluminum would not hold up. I'm putting a steel one on mine because I do not completely believe in the "absorb" theory and I'm more worried about my rotating assembly. ~Brian __________________ 1989 Black Mustang GT Hatchback, Underdrive Pulles, Electric Fan, Cold Air Intake, Headers, Offroad H-Pipe, Magnaflow catback, Steeda Tri-Ax, Fluidyne Aluminum Radiator, Timing at 14*, 3.73's Coming not so soon: 408w Ricer Hater's Club Member #59

10-28-2003, 07:05 PM	#4
VeNuM Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Downers Grove, IL Posts: 464	Btw, definately run both a girdle of some sort and a windage tray! ~Brian __________________ 1989 Black Mustang GT Hatchback, Underdrive Pulles, Electric Fan, Cold Air Intake, Headers, Offroad H-Pipe, Magnaflow catback, Steeda Tri-Ax, Fluidyne Aluminum Radiator, Timing at 14*, 3.73's Coming not so soon: 408w Ricer Hater's Club Member #59

10-28-2003, 09:54 PM	#5
BilLster Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Ontario canada Posts: 446	both they serve diffrent function's they just live around the same place. __________________ 89 with 331 t3'/t4 hybrids. upr Suspention worked out finnaly . 9.89 144 mph .

10-29-2003, 07:39 AM	#6
Jeff Chambers Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Milan, OH Posts: 2,699	If you do go with a windage tray, try to find a screened tray like the Moroso or Canton units. I've actually stopped using windage trays in my motors as we've found that they can actually cost you HP. We've proven this on th engine dyno. With a Canton 7-qt pan on my engines we've seen as much a 7hp more without the windage tray, presumably because the tray was bouncing the oil back onto the crank rather than allowing it to be thrown into the deep pan. Just a thought. __________________ Jeff Chambers 1990 Mustang GT 10.032 Seconds / 137.5 MPH 14-time Street Warrior World Record Setter CRT Performance 2001 Tropic Green Mustang GT - 12.181 / 113.2 MPH 2002 Ford F-250 Crew Cab 7.3l Power Stroke - 17.41@77.2 "There's nothing boring about a small block automatic shifting gears at 9400 rpm!"

10-29-2003, 09:56 AM	#7
Fulcrum Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Farmers Branch, Tx Posts: 46	WOW! Thanks for all the info guys, most of my aquantances are die-hard chevy fans and won't talk Ford. Yet, I've always had the best luck with Fords. 'Eric, I had never seen or heard of the aluminum type. There may be something to that harmonic idea but wouldn't a good Harmonic dampner and balanced flywheel take care of that? Aluminum remains something to consider, whats the cost and where could I find that setup? I agree that there is no getting over the rigid strength of steel. I just wasn't sure if they both would fit. BTW,I also intend on using the stock oil pan. Is clearence a problem if I install both? As for the windage tray; Jeff, I can see where the screened type would have its advantages in regared to oil return but I thought the main purpose was to increase Hp by reducing the effect of the crank "splashing" through the oil. I was surprised to see that your dyno test actually showed a loss of Hp. Did your dyno also show a difference between the screen, or louvered varities or did ya'll get that far with it?

10-29-2003, 11:04 AM	#8
302 LX Eric or '331 LX Eric' Join Date: Jan 1999 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 2,142	The website for DSS is www.dssracing.com E __________________ 1991 5.0 LX Coupe - 40,750 miles 331 cu. in. / Tremec 3550 / BFG Drag Radials 12.22 @ 114.31 mph - w/1.89 60'

10-29-2003, 08:46 PM	#9
red82gt Sober voice of Reason Join Date: Nov 1998 Location: Kelowna, B.C., Canada Posts: 1,514	I wouldn't bother using a main girdle, unless you have expensive internals (steel crank, expensive rods, etc.). It won't stop the block from cracking, it'll only act as a seat belt to save the internals. The 5.0L ford block isn't the toughest out there, but it's no porcelain doll either. I wouldn't worry about the block until you're making over 500hp, by then you'll want to swap out the KB's for some better forged units and then you can add a girdle. __________________ 393W: AFR 205's, hydraulic roller, TKO600.

10-31-2003, 07:51 AM	#11
Jeff Chambers Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Milan, OH Posts: 2,699	My Canton Pro-Pan has a built-in scraper. The tests we've done were on an engine dyno, not a chassis dyno. Results are much more repeatable on the engine dyno => less variables. The screened tray did better than a solid/louvered tray, but still wasn't as good as no tray at all. __________________ Jeff Chambers 1990 Mustang GT 10.032 Seconds / 137.5 MPH 14-time Street Warrior World Record Setter CRT Performance 2001 Tropic Green Mustang GT - 12.181 / 113.2 MPH 2002 Ford F-250 Crew Cab 7.3l Power Stroke - 17.41@77.2 "There's nothing boring about a small block automatic shifting gears at 9400 rpm!"

11-04-2003, 04:51 PM	#12
drudis Moderator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Livonia, MI, USA Posts: 1,194	I did the aluminum girdle, mostly cause I got it from a friend cheap... Wont go into the argument of aluminum/steel, but IMOHO anything is better than nothing. Also, it wont really make a difference in the mains till you start pushing closer to 500rwhp, which I was at 425rwhp and plan on getting closer to the 500rwhp mark this winter. As for windage tray, if I knew now, I would have put one in last summer. Will the next time the oilpan comes off this winter. __________________ Darius Rudis, Moderator Corner Carvers Delight 1989 Mustang LX - Open Track Car http://www.dariusrudis.com

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