What camshaft/converter/gears for Cleveland

84LX89GT · 02-17-2005, 12:16 AM

Ok here's what i've got (low budget buildup):
Engine:
400 Modified Cleveland (yeah i know, but it's still a cleveland) I'm rebuilding with 10.5:1 CR, Edelbrock Performer Manifold port matched to stock 2 barrel heads (light porting). I'm probably going to hand port or try and acid port the exhaust manifolds, getting a 750-800 cfm vacuum secondary quadrajet and rebuild it. I'm going to use nitrous oxide, not sure how much of a shot yet.
- how much valve lift can i get with the pedestal mount stock rocker arms?
- what cam would you recommend?
- What size diameter exhaust should i use?
Transmission:
C6, going to do a performance overhaul - what converter should i get?
Rearend:
Will swap in a 8.8" to whatever car i buy - what gears should i get?

- basically i'm looking to build a torque crazy engine to put in a light car like an early 80's stang or fox body, i want to be as fast as possible on a budget at whatever rpm it takes (preferably lower, more reliable rpm's) but with the exhaust manifolds and performer intake i think my rpm band may be limited to 5500-6000 rpm. I'd like to be in the mid-low 11's with slicks.
***thank you for your time***

84LX89GT · 02-17-2005, 12:19 AM

I forgot to mention that this will be primarily a strip car, i just need to be able to drive it to and from the track and of course, ocassionally on the street, emissions is no issue.

tireburner163 · 02-20-2005, 09:24 AM

I think you'd be better off just doing a 351W base motor. 400M parts are few and far between

Unit 5302 · 02-21-2005, 12:15 PM

I wouldn't build the 400M, either. If I did, I certainly wouldn't be revving it to 6000rpm. The engine has a very long 4.0" stroke which really increases the piston speed and stress on the rotating assembly. Make sure your transmission will fit, too. To accomodate that stroke, the deck height of the 351 was raised, and the rods were made longer, and very few 400M blocks actually have the same bolt pattern as the 351C engines.

You're going to be limited to around 5000rpm for peak power.

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/400Fordpg4.htm

rwhite65 · 02-22-2005, 01:27 AM

Ok, I hate to help depress you....but I would not use that engine. If you are using it because you already have it, those are still sought after by the ford truck commmunity, where it should go and stay. You can get decent money for it if it is in good condition.

Get the 351w, much more parts available and CHEAPER!!!

Sorry, not knocken your engine choice, I have it in my truck....but the 351w will be an easier and cheaper engine for your application.
Ryan

84LX89GT · 02-23-2005, 09:37 PM

-thanks for the great link, unit

-
I got the 351M engine and a fitting C6 transmission in exchange for a $140 truck (how much i had into it total), i got a Rochester quadrajet for $30 (750-800cfm, need to run serial numbers) and an edelbrock performer manifold with the engine. I know it will fit in a stang because a 460 can fit. The reason i want to use this engine is because with 407 cubic inches and cleveland heads (2 barrel Cleveland heads flow better than alot of aftermarket 5.0/5.8L heads) with porting will haul ass for real cheap. a distributor for it is $53 my cost and i plan on using the stock exhaust manifolds. The goal here is cheap torque (horsepower).
I got the higher compression pistons (badger 9.5:1) with rings already and i just need the block cleaned and bored, my dad was a machinist so the heads and intake manifold will be milled for nothing. The heads need new valves and with a camshaft i'll get all the valvetrain stuff that matches. when i'm done i'll easily be under $1000 dollars into the engine and hopefully it will make at least $300+ horsepower. Also i already have a nitrous oxide kit laying around so small shot would be fun to throw in the mix.
I'm a transmission tech at a ford dealership, so i can rebuild the C6 transmission for next to nothing.
-This is just a budget buildup and i have pretty much the whole combo dialed in except for what camshaft to get, that will determine my redline, torque converter stall and rear gear selection.
***i know a 400M is not what people think of as a performance engine (was a smog boat anchor), but it is still just a tall cleveland, and it's something different also***

Dark_5.0 · 02-24-2005, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 84LX89GT

-thanks for the great link, unit

-
I got the 351M engine and a fitting C6 transmission in exchange for a $140 truck (how much i had into it total), i got a Rochester quadrajet for $30 (750-800cfm, need to run serial numbers) and an edelbrock performer manifold with the engine. I know it will fit in a stang because a 460 can fit. The reason i want to use this engine is because with 407 cubic inches and cleveland heads (2 barrel Cleveland heads flow better than alot of aftermarket 5.0/5.8L heads) with porting will haul ass for real cheap. a distributor for it is $53 my cost and i plan on using the stock exhaust manifolds. The goal here is cheap torque (horsepower).
I got the higher compression pistons (badger 9.5:1) with rings already and i just need the block cleaned and bored, my dad was a machinist so the heads and intake manifold will be milled for nothing. The heads need new valves and with a camshaft i'll get all the valvetrain stuff that matches. when i'm done i'll easily be under $1000 dollars into the engine and hopefully it will make at least $300+ horsepower. Also i already have a nitrous oxide kit laying around so small shot would be fun to throw in the mix.
I'm a transmission tech at a ford dealership, so i can rebuild the C6 transmission for next to nothing.
-This is just a budget buildup and i have pretty much the whole combo dialed in except for what camshaft to get, that will determine my redline, torque converter stall and rear gear selection.
***i know a 400M is not what people think of as a performance engine (was a smog boat anchor), but it is still just a tall cleveland, and it's something different also***

Keep us posted on your progress. I would like to see some pics when you start throwing it together.

seefour · 02-27-2005, 07:58 PM

You can make a ford 400 do want you want . first a few things, build for torque outright, good rod bolts and balance job, 2v heads must flow 250 cfm ,bowl blend intake and exhaust and short turn work in heads, find 2v closed chamber, open chamber and nitrous will cause problems.
I ran 6.60's in 1/8 mile with 351 c with 10.2 compression .555-.565 lift solid cam 235-245 @ .050 110 sep 106 c/l chet herbert solid, eagle rods , trw flat tops. ger 10 inch converter, flashed 4500 on 100 shot or 250 shot. 4,11 gears and 26 x 8.5 et street at 3140 lbs 68 mustang with leafspring suspension , southside lift bars 4v heads 2.19 1.71 valves bowl blended only, the 2v closed chamber would have worked better.
the car ran 12.20"s in the 1/4 on motor an 10.50 "s on dope 11.0"s on 100 shot.
the chet herbert cam was 75.00 and worked great, it pulled to 6500-6800 in my 351 ,in a 400 it will pull to 6000 easy.I would use a 10 inch 3000 stall, 3.91 gears and a 28 x 10 x 15 slick on your mustang.
start out small on the nitrous 75-100 shot 6.0 lbs fuel pressure and drop 2 degrees for every 50 hp jump. The stock rods will need arp bolts and I would not use more than 125-150 shot on them, use arp main studs, and a main gridle from ford performance solutions. I would buy a aftermarket bell housing and use a c-4 behind the motor , transking c-4 super comp version .
I could run 93 pump gas onn my motor and spray 150 shot to run 6.80"s easy shifting at 6100 with this combo.
mike stephenson
mstephenson@bluebon.net
979-251-8992

84LX89GT · 02-28-2005, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_5.0

Keep us posted on your progress. I would like to see some pics when you start throwing it together.

You bet Dark 5.0, i'll be sure to take lots of pictures, i'm planning on doing this in a rather short time span so hopefully progress will come fast.

Thanks for all the info mike, that really helped out. I'll email you with any questions i have or any photos i can upload.

This should be quite the fun project.
***update for 2/27/05, recieved pistons and rings for engine, will get block machining done this week. I'll continue to port the heads and hopefully by the end of the week the heads will be ready to be milled and reconditioned.
-thanks for the replies everyone-

grey88gt · 02-28-2005, 07:14 AM

My first hot rod was an old 74 F100. I took a 400 from a wrecked Montego. Put a Comp Cam 268h in it, Edelbrock performer 400 intake, Holley 650, new timeing gear set and with 2deg advance at the gears. Everything else was stock, truck had 3.25 gear C-6 all stock. When put in truck it had 87,000 on engine. Drove it all thru high school, tons of abuse(put another 80,000 plus miles on it) and lots of street raceing. Always shifted at 5800 ran 14.60 in a 4600 lb truck. Never had any lower end problems with it. But I do agree with the other guys you can build a 351w cheaper and they are alot better on fuel. With mods your doing to yours you be lucky to 10 mpg out of it that. The windsor is all so easyer to keep cool. 400s like lots of gas, even stock. Lots of guys around here run 400s with ARP bolt kits and they hold up fine, but they are in trucks mud bogging and hill climbing. As partial to the 400s that Iam i do belive Id go with the 351w. One other thing if you decide to use the 400, put a t fitting at the oil preasure sending unit and run a high preasure line down to the oil rail on the side of the block. 400s oil the cam bearings first then the mains, If you do this the lower end will hold up 100% better, and get a good high volume oil pump. Just my 2 cents.

84LX89GT · 02-28-2005, 09:00 PM

thanks grey88gt, i already have 2 other cars i can drive around that get decent gas mileage and the car i'm going to put this in will be strictly a toy so as long as it sucks up all that fuel and turns it into torque and horsepower i'm fine with it. I was debating on whether to use the moroso oil restrictor kit or to run a line to the sending unit, i guess i'll see what i decide to get when i order the gasket kit and other stuff i'll need.
I had a '78 F150 with a 400M and man was that thing a fuel sucking slug. 11 miles per gallon whether you romped on it or grannied it, it didn't matter. 2 1/4" single exhaust with stock exhaust manifolds, stock cam with stock retarded crank sprocket and 2 barrel intake....ugh. It's amazing how ford was able to completely kill the output of all their 70's engines.

grey88gt · 02-28-2005, 09:30 PM

Yah I agree. How did they ever sale them? You can put a crank gear out of a 429 in a 460 and itll sure wake them up LOL. Well good luck with your build, the 400 is a tough engine and will take alot of abuse.

02-17-2005, 12:16 AM	#1
84LX89GT Mustangs Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 1,938	What camshaft/converter/gears for Cleveland Ok here's what i've got (low budget buildup): Engine: 400 Modified Cleveland (yeah i know, but it's still a cleveland) I'm rebuilding with 10.5:1 CR, Edelbrock Performer Manifold port matched to stock 2 barrel heads (light porting). I'm probably going to hand port or try and acid port the exhaust manifolds, getting a 750-800 cfm vacuum secondary quadrajet and rebuild it. I'm going to use nitrous oxide, not sure how much of a shot yet. - how much valve lift can i get with the pedestal mount stock rocker arms? - what cam would you recommend? - What size diameter exhaust should i use? Transmission: C6, going to do a performance overhaul - what converter should i get? Rearend: Will swap in a 8.8" to whatever car i buy - what gears should i get? - basically i'm looking to build a torque crazy engine to put in a light car like an early 80's stang or fox body, i want to be as fast as possible on a budget at whatever rpm it takes (preferably lower, more reliable rpm's) but with the exhaust manifolds and performer intake i think my rpm band may be limited to 5500-6000 rpm. I'd like to be in the mid-low 11's with slicks. *thank you for your time* __________________ 2005 Suzuki Hayabusa GSX1300-R 1980 Ford Thunderbird - 255 V8 ported heads, 5.0L ported stock headers, O.R. H-pipe and Flowmaster 2-chambers, dual roller timing chain hi-po Mack Truck hood emblem 1985 Mustang GT 5.0L T5, F-303, GT40p, headers, off-road h, flowmasters, MSD stuff, etc. Sold 02/06/04 1989 Mustang GT ET: 13.304@102.29 mph (5-24-03) Sold - 1998 Mustang Cobra coupe, 1/4 mile - street tires: 13.843@103.41 (bone stock)

02-17-2005, 12:19 AM	#2
84LX89GT Mustangs Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 1,938	Re: What camshaft/converter/gears for Cleveland I forgot to mention that this will be primarily a strip car, i just need to be able to drive it to and from the track and of course, ocassionally on the street, emissions is no issue. __________________ 2005 Suzuki Hayabusa GSX1300-R 1980 Ford Thunderbird - 255 V8 ported heads, 5.0L ported stock headers, O.R. H-pipe and Flowmaster 2-chambers, dual roller timing chain hi-po Mack Truck hood emblem 1985 Mustang GT 5.0L T5, F-303, GT40p, headers, off-road h, flowmasters, MSD stuff, etc. Sold 02/06/04 1989 Mustang GT ET: 13.304@102.29 mph (5-24-03) Sold - 1998 Mustang Cobra coupe, 1/4 mile - street tires: 13.843@103.41 (bone stock)

02-20-2005, 09:24 AM	#3
tireburner163 It's a lot like a race car Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Meridian, MS Posts: 4,130	Re: What camshaft/converter/gears for Cleveland I think you'd be better off just doing a 351W base motor. 400M parts are few and far between __________________ 1987 Buick T-type 1998 HD Electra Elide

02-21-2005, 12:15 PM	#4
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	Re: What camshaft/converter/gears for Cleveland I wouldn't build the 400M, either. If I did, I certainly wouldn't be revving it to 6000rpm. The engine has a very long 4.0" stroke which really increases the piston speed and stress on the rotating assembly. Make sure your transmission will fit, too. To accomodate that stroke, the deck height of the 351 was raised, and the rods were made longer, and very few 400M blocks actually have the same bolt pattern as the 351C engines. You're going to be limited to around 5000rpm for peak power. http://www.tmeyerinc.com/400Fordpg4.htm

02-22-2005, 01:27 AM	#5
rwhite65 Ride Hard Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Wyoming IL Posts: 1,094	Re: What camshaft/converter/gears for Cleveland Ok, I hate to help depress you....but I would not use that engine. If you are using it because you already have it, those are still sought after by the ford truck commmunity, where it should go and stay. You can get decent money for it if it is in good condition. Get the 351w, much more parts available and CHEAPER!!! Sorry, not knocken your engine choice, I have it in my truck....but the 351w will be an easier and cheaper engine for your application. Ryan __________________ 65 Fastback 91 roller 306, H/C/I AOD-Bauman, PI Stallion, 4.10's and traction loc 04 Grand Cherokee Freedom Edition 79 Ford F-250 4x4 - Restored

02-23-2005, 09:37 PM	#6
84LX89GT Mustangs Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 1,938	Re: What camshaft/converter/gears for Cleveland -thanks for the great link, unit - I got the 351M engine and a fitting C6 transmission in exchange for a $140 truck (how much i had into it total), i got a Rochester quadrajet for $30 (750-800cfm, need to run serial numbers) and an edelbrock performer manifold with the engine. I know it will fit in a stang because a 460 can fit. The reason i want to use this engine is because with 407 cubic inches and cleveland heads (2 barrel Cleveland heads flow better than alot of aftermarket 5.0/5.8L heads) with porting will haul ass for real cheap. a distributor for it is $53 my cost and i plan on using the stock exhaust manifolds. The goal here is cheap torque (horsepower). I got the higher compression pistons (badger 9.5:1) with rings already and i just need the block cleaned and bored, my dad was a machinist so the heads and intake manifold will be milled for nothing. The heads need new valves and with a camshaft i'll get all the valvetrain stuff that matches. when i'm done i'll easily be under $1000 dollars into the engine and hopefully it will make at least $300+ horsepower. Also i already have a nitrous oxide kit laying around so small shot would be fun to throw in the mix. I'm a transmission tech at a ford dealership, so i can rebuild the C6 transmission for next to nothing. -This is just a budget buildup and i have pretty much the whole combo dialed in except for what camshaft to get, that will determine my redline, torque converter stall and rear gear selection. *i know a 400M is not what people think of as a performance engine (was a smog boat anchor), but it is still just a tall cleveland, and it's something different also* __________________ 2005 Suzuki Hayabusa GSX1300-R 1980 Ford Thunderbird - 255 V8 ported heads, 5.0L ported stock headers, O.R. H-pipe and Flowmaster 2-chambers, dual roller timing chain hi-po Mack Truck hood emblem 1985 Mustang GT 5.0L T5, F-303, GT40p, headers, off-road h, flowmasters, MSD stuff, etc. Sold 02/06/04 1989 Mustang GT ET: 13.304@102.29 mph (5-24-03) Sold - 1998 Mustang Cobra coupe, 1/4 mile - street tires: 13.843@103.41 (bone stock) Last edited by 84LX89GT; 02-23-2005 at 09:57 PM..

02-27-2005, 07:58 PM	#8
seefour Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brenham Texas Posts: 1	Re: What camshaft/converter/gears for Cleveland You can make a ford 400 do want you want . first a few things, build for torque outright, good rod bolts and balance job, 2v heads must flow 250 cfm ,bowl blend intake and exhaust and short turn work in heads, find 2v closed chamber, open chamber and nitrous will cause problems. I ran 6.60's in 1/8 mile with 351 c with 10.2 compression .555-.565 lift solid cam 235-245 @ .050 110 sep 106 c/l chet herbert solid, eagle rods , trw flat tops. ger 10 inch converter, flashed 4500 on 100 shot or 250 shot. 4,11 gears and 26 x 8.5 et street at 3140 lbs 68 mustang with leafspring suspension , southside lift bars 4v heads 2.19 1.71 valves bowl blended only, the 2v closed chamber would have worked better. the car ran 12.20"s in the 1/4 on motor an 10.50 "s on dope 11.0"s on 100 shot. the chet herbert cam was 75.00 and worked great, it pulled to 6500-6800 in my 351 ,in a 400 it will pull to 6000 easy.I would use a 10 inch 3000 stall, 3.91 gears and a 28 x 10 x 15 slick on your mustang. start out small on the nitrous 75-100 shot 6.0 lbs fuel pressure and drop 2 degrees for every 50 hp jump. The stock rods will need arp bolts and I would not use more than 125-150 shot on them, use arp main studs, and a main gridle from ford performance solutions. I would buy a aftermarket bell housing and use a c-4 behind the motor , transking c-4 super comp version . I could run 93 pump gas onn my motor and spray 150 shot to run 6.80"s easy shifting at 6100 with this combo. mike stephenson mstephenson@bluebon.net 979-251-8992

02-28-2005, 07:14 AM	#10
grey88gt Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Skiatook, Oklahoma Posts: 193	Re: What camshaft/converter/gears for Cleveland My first hot rod was an old 74 F100. I took a 400 from a wrecked Montego. Put a Comp Cam 268h in it, Edelbrock performer 400 intake, Holley 650, new timeing gear set and with 2deg advance at the gears. Everything else was stock, truck had 3.25 gear C-6 all stock. When put in truck it had 87,000 on engine. Drove it all thru high school, tons of abuse(put another 80,000 plus miles on it) and lots of street raceing. Always shifted at 5800 ran 14.60 in a 4600 lb truck. Never had any lower end problems with it. But I do agree with the other guys you can build a 351w cheaper and they are alot better on fuel. With mods your doing to yours you be lucky to 10 mpg out of it that. The windsor is all so easyer to keep cool. 400s like lots of gas, even stock. Lots of guys around here run 400s with ARP bolt kits and they hold up fine, but they are in trucks mud bogging and hill climbing. As partial to the 400s that Iam i do belive Id go with the 351w. One other thing if you decide to use the 400, put a t fitting at the oil preasure sending unit and run a high preasure line down to the oil rail on the side of the block. 400s oil the cam bearings first then the mains, If you do this the lower end will hold up 100% better, and get a good high volume oil pump. Just my 2 cents.

02-28-2005, 09:00 PM	#11
84LX89GT Mustangs Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 1,938	Re: What camshaft/converter/gears for Cleveland thanks grey88gt, i already have 2 other cars i can drive around that get decent gas mileage and the car i'm going to put this in will be strictly a toy so as long as it sucks up all that fuel and turns it into torque and horsepower i'm fine with it. I was debating on whether to use the moroso oil restrictor kit or to run a line to the sending unit, i guess i'll see what i decide to get when i order the gasket kit and other stuff i'll need. I had a '78 F150 with a 400M and man was that thing a fuel sucking slug. 11 miles per gallon whether you romped on it or grannied it, it didn't matter. 2 1/4" single exhaust with stock exhaust manifolds, stock cam with stock retarded crank sprocket and 2 barrel intake....ugh. It's amazing how ford was able to completely kill the output of all their 70's engines. __________________ 2005 Suzuki Hayabusa GSX1300-R 1980 Ford Thunderbird - 255 V8 ported heads, 5.0L ported stock headers, O.R. H-pipe and Flowmaster 2-chambers, dual roller timing chain hi-po Mack Truck hood emblem 1985 Mustang GT 5.0L T5, F-303, GT40p, headers, off-road h, flowmasters, MSD stuff, etc. Sold 02/06/04 1989 Mustang GT ET: 13.304@102.29 mph (5-24-03) Sold - 1998 Mustang Cobra coupe, 1/4 mile - street tires: 13.843@103.41 (bone stock)

02-28-2005, 09:30 PM	#12
grey88gt Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Skiatook, Oklahoma Posts: 193	Re: What camshaft/converter/gears for Cleveland Yah I agree. How did they ever sale them? You can put a crank gear out of a 429 in a 460 and itll sure wake them up LOL. Well good luck with your build, the 400 is a tough engine and will take alot of abuse.