Still leaking?!!!!!! - Page 2

USMC302 · 03-25-2005, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hozer 88GTConv

Oh shit!
You're supposed to let thread sealer set up?
Hmmm, that could be why I go through a quart of oil every 250 miles with no apparent leaks and no smoke....
When I last put my heads on, I waited about an hour before I fired it up

Sweet...

Thread sealer would prevent water leaks, not oil.

Capri306, it only leaks when I fire it up, it does not need to be up to operating temp, pressure dependant is my answer. I was hoping it was the block because it was 100% gauranteed and decked, sonic tested, the full works. Houston Engine and Balancing in Houston did it and said it was all tested perfect. If the sealant doesn't work with the 95ft/lbs, then I will have the block tested again. They have a very high reputation and have never had a block come back. I wanted to say the heads because I didn't have this problem before I got them milled, but I got them tested.

~The Jester~ · 03-27-2005, 08:11 AM

This be the stuff. The "555" is better, made by the same company. But, if you can't find it, this should get you by.

andy669 · 03-27-2005, 09:21 AM

I must have missed where you said what size bolts you are using. 95 ft./lbs is way too much for a 7/16 head bolt. I use 70 (for a 7/16) with oil between the head of the bolt and the washer. On the blind holes I use oil on the threads, and thread sealer on the ones that go in to the water jackets. Never had a problem.

Andy

Capri306 · 03-27-2005, 08:49 PM

I'd say it's narrowed down to the block-head interface then iff the threads aren't leaking and both the block and heads are crack- and porosity-free. That's your only other option.

p.s. iff = if and only if.

I really hope you get this figured out, honestly. I can only imagine your frustration.

USMC302 · 03-28-2005, 09:38 AM

Too much torque? The engine builder said I should be good up to 100ft/lbs.??

Since I am going to do this one bolt at a time with the "555", do you think I should just go with studs?

Dark_5.0 · 03-28-2005, 02:37 PM

Since the heads have been on other cars with no problems I think you block is out of whack.

I torqued my aluminum heads down to 30 and then 50 and then 70 ft lbs.

I am using the same gaskets as you with ARP head bolts.

USMC302 · 03-29-2005, 08:59 AM

I read in 5.0 magazine just the other night, the techs torqued AFR heads on a stock block to 95.......I think I should be safe. We'll see not this weekend but next, I'll post back up and let everyone know. Thanks for all of the input.

andy669 · 03-29-2005, 09:28 AM

I'll believe what ARP tells me before any magazine article. 95ft.lbs should only be used if it is a 1/2 inch stud, which 351w's have.

Assuming the block was decked in the proper machine, its kinda hard to screw it up without noticing. Now if someone set it up in an endmill and took cuts with a 1" cutter, thats a different story. I really doubt its the block, or the heads. I think its just bad luck. Oh yeah, and the junk fel pro head gaskets. I always use Cortecos on my N/A stuff. They are excellent gaskets, and priced real reasonably. I buy complete engine gasket sets for $70.

Andy

USMC302 · 03-29-2005, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy669

I think its just bad luck. Oh yeah, and the junk fel pro head gaskets. I always use Cortecos on my N/A stuff. They are excellent gaskets, and priced real reasonably. I buy complete engine gasket sets for $70.

Andy

That's actually the best news yet, I know the heads are good and 99.999% sure the block is too. If the new sealant doesn't work I will try the Cortecos. I will try just about anything now.

Dark_5.0 · 03-29-2005, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy669

I'll believe what ARP tells me before any magazine article. 95ft.lbs should only be used if it is a 1/2 inch stud, which 351w's have.

Assuming the block was decked in the proper machine, its kinda hard to screw it up without noticing. Now if someone set it up in an endmill and took cuts with a 1" cutter, thats a different story. I really doubt its the block, or the heads. I think its just bad luck. Oh yeah, and the junk fel pro head gaskets. I always use Cortecos on my N/A stuff. They are excellent gaskets, and priced real reasonably. I buy complete engine gasket sets for $70.

Andy

The junk fepros have never let me down

andy669 · 03-30-2005, 06:50 AM

One more thing I was thinking: Make sure theres not an extra head dowel pushed all the way up inside the head. Some times reused dowels can be real loose and when you pull the head off you might not even see it cause its all the way to the top of its bore. If the machine shop put new ones in, and theres one still stuck in the head, that will definately cause a leak. A similiar situation happened to me a few weeks ago, but it wasnt on the motor, it was on the flow bench. For awhile there I had the best flowing intake port in the country (it was sucking air beneath the head surface). I didnt notice what the problem was until I reversed the bench to exhaust and the rubber seal between the head and plate started flapping.

Andy

~The Jester~ · 03-30-2005, 06:06 PM

Good call! Never thought of that!

Ieatcamaros · 03-30-2005, 06:53 PM

Nice new avatar, Jester.

I hadn't thought of the head dowel either. Good call Andy. I'll also agree that 95 ft/lbs. is too much on a 7/16 bolt. When you take the heads back off, check your bolts. I know you said they felt good when you torqued them down, but they could still be ruined. I'd take the threaded ends of each bolt and mesh the threads together with another bolt to see how they look. I hope that makes sense. One more thing, is it leaking in the same place every time?

82 GT · 03-30-2005, 08:04 PM

This might be a dumb question but are the head bolts being tightened in the correct pattern?
Nobody asked yet so I thought I'd ask to eliminate the obvious.

Dark_5.0 · 03-30-2005, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 82 GT

This might be a dumb question but are the head bolts being tightened in the correct pattern?
Nobody asked yet so I thought I'd ask to eliminate the obvious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMC302

Here's the short..... 88 stang new EFI 331, block tested and decked, TW aluminum heads. First build, it leaked water from both head gaskets external and internal, followed torque sequence

..........

82 GT · 03-31-2005, 12:23 AM

Oooops...my bad

USMC302 · 03-31-2005, 08:03 AM

Dark5.0, thanks for that and also the performance shop I talked to said yes ARP says one thing but he has never had a problem with too much torque on those bolts up to 100, I decided I'm going studs just to be on the safe side though. Like you, I have never had to torque aluminum heads down passed 70ft/lbs for a good seal.

Andy669, yes I checked that, I was wishing it was only that easy. Also checked to make sure the dowels seated all the way once in the heads, it's not stopping the head from seating at all.

Studs, 555, 95ft/lbs and let is sit over night before filling it up is what I'm going to try. But as mentioned before it seems pressure dependant and I was also told these were the symptoms of a crack (leak when heated). If this doesn't work, then I think it won't leak if it's at the bottom of the river.

HotRoddin · 03-31-2005, 09:09 PM

It may not be exactally what Andy said, but my bet would be something similar to that, like a puckered headbolt hole or something. Perhaps incompatable gasket / head / block combo ?

If it can't hold coolant just starting it up and idling in the driveway then it has to be something obvious ... a large crack or a serious warp or low/high spot on the block / head.

I'm curious about the leaking headbolts theory, even if you have coolant coming up past the bolt threads, that area is still sealed from the outside world by the head gasket ??

Anywho, like everybody else, I'm curious to see what ends up fixing this one, please let us know, and good luck

Rev · 03-31-2005, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy669

One more thing I was thinking: Make sure theres not an extra head dowel pushed all the way up inside the head. Some times reused dowels can be real loose and when you pull the head off you might not even see it cause its all the way to the top of its bore. If the machine shop put new ones in, and theres one still stuck in the head, that will definately cause a leak. A similiar situation happened to me a few weeks ago, but it wasnt on the motor, it was on the flow bench. For awhile there I had the best flowing intake port in the country (it was sucking air beneath the head surface). I didnt notice what the problem was until I reversed the bench to exhaust and the rubber seal between the head and plate started flapping.

Andy

That actually did happen with me recently. I was reinstalling the heads temporarily to check piston/valve clearance after a new cam installation. I only installed the passenger side head with the old gasket to check the clearance. I noticed that I was missing a dowel which I knew I had earlier. You guessed it, there was an extra one crammed in the hole at the rear of the passenger side head. I'm damned glad I found out before the final installation of the heads after all the work of a new cam and intake being installed. Fortunately, I caught that screw up before it could do any real harm.

Rev

82 GT · 04-01-2005, 11:59 PM

Man...if this was me and I had this much trouble with the heads sealing, I would be so pissed off by now that I would probably weld the heads right to the block

03-27-2005, 08:11 AM	#22
~The Jester~ Rat Killer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cold ass Ohio Posts: 1,143	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! This be the stuff. The "555" is better, made by the same company. But, if you can't find it, this should get you by. __________________ d-Con Racing "Nothing fancy, just 347 inches of RAT POISON!" MICE need not apply.....

03-27-2005, 09:21 AM	#23
andy669 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Moline Il Posts: 901	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! I must have missed where you said what size bolts you are using. 95 ft./lbs is way too much for a 7/16 head bolt. I use 70 (for a 7/16) with oil between the head of the bolt and the washer. On the blind holes I use oil on the threads, and thread sealer on the ones that go in to the water jackets. Never had a problem. Andy __________________ 88 coupe 91 LX NMRA Pure Street 5120

03-27-2005, 08:49 PM	#24
Capri306 Moderator Join Date: Sep 1998 Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA Posts: 1,001	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! I'd say it's narrowed down to the block-head interface then iff the threads aren't leaking and both the block and heads are crack- and porosity-free. That's your only other option. p.s. iff = if and only if. I really hope you get this figured out, honestly. I can only imagine your frustration. __________________ Capri306, Moderator The Mustang Works Online 1979 Mercury Capri 1987 5.0L Mustang LX Notchback 1993 5.8L Eddie Bauer Bronco

03-28-2005, 09:38 AM	#25
USMC302 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Gallatin, Tn Posts: 1,326	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! Too much torque? The engine builder said I should be good up to 100ft/lbs.?? Since I am going to do this one bolt at a time with the "555", do you think I should just go with studs? __________________

03-28-2005, 02:37 PM	#26
Dark_5.0 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Staging lane Posts: 4,337	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! Since the heads have been on other cars with no problems I think you block is out of whack. I torqued my aluminum heads down to 30 and then 50 and then 70 ft lbs. I am using the same gaskets as you with ARP head bolts. __________________ 92' LX-Big brakes, Lots and lots of suspension, GT40X heads, Ported cobra intake, stock cam, Vortech SC trim. 00' Lightning-Stock 88'CRX-13 second ego killer

03-29-2005, 08:59 AM	#27
USMC302 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Gallatin, Tn Posts: 1,326	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! I read in 5.0 magazine just the other night, the techs torqued AFR heads on a stock block to 95.......I think I should be safe. We'll see not this weekend but next, I'll post back up and let everyone know. Thanks for all of the input. __________________

03-29-2005, 09:28 AM	#28
andy669 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Moline Il Posts: 901	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! I'll believe what ARP tells me before any magazine article. 95ft.lbs should only be used if it is a 1/2 inch stud, which 351w's have. Assuming the block was decked in the proper machine, its kinda hard to screw it up without noticing. Now if someone set it up in an endmill and took cuts with a 1" cutter, thats a different story. I really doubt its the block, or the heads. I think its just bad luck. Oh yeah, and the junk fel pro head gaskets. I always use Cortecos on my N/A stuff. They are excellent gaskets, and priced real reasonably. I buy complete engine gasket sets for $70. Andy __________________ 88 coupe 91 LX NMRA Pure Street 5120

03-30-2005, 06:50 AM	#31
andy669 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Moline Il Posts: 901	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! One more thing I was thinking: Make sure theres not an extra head dowel pushed all the way up inside the head. Some times reused dowels can be real loose and when you pull the head off you might not even see it cause its all the way to the top of its bore. If the machine shop put new ones in, and theres one still stuck in the head, that will definately cause a leak. A similiar situation happened to me a few weeks ago, but it wasnt on the motor, it was on the flow bench. For awhile there I had the best flowing intake port in the country (it was sucking air beneath the head surface). I didnt notice what the problem was until I reversed the bench to exhaust and the rubber seal between the head and plate started flapping. Andy __________________ 88 coupe 91 LX NMRA Pure Street 5120

03-30-2005, 06:06 PM	#32
~The Jester~ Rat Killer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cold ass Ohio Posts: 1,143	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! Good call! Never thought of that! __________________ d-Con Racing "Nothing fancy, just 347 inches of RAT POISON!" MICE need not apply.....

03-30-2005, 06:53 PM	#33
Ieatcamaros Domestic Rice really sucks! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: KY Posts: 973	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! Nice new avatar, Jester. I hadn't thought of the head dowel either. Good call Andy. I'll also agree that 95 ft/lbs. is too much on a 7/16 bolt. When you take the heads back off, check your bolts. I know you said they felt good when you torqued them down, but they could still be ruined. I'd take the threaded ends of each bolt and mesh the threads together with another bolt to see how they look. I hope that makes sense. One more thing, is it leaking in the same place every time? __________________ The sig says it all.

03-30-2005, 08:04 PM	#34
82 GT Import Slayer Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 2,241	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! This might be a dumb question but are the head bolts being tightened in the correct pattern? Nobody asked yet so I thought I'd ask to eliminate the obvious. __________________ '82 GT 351W (.060)Comp Cams 274* Extreme Energy cam, ported & polished heads w/ 1.94/1.60 valves 10.3:1 flat top pistons,stealth intake, Mallory dizzy,Holley 750dp carb, BBK shorties,Flowmaster exhaust,C-4 with 3700 stall converter, B&M pro shifter,8.8 rear, 4:10's, subframes, electric fan, powermaster alternator, 4 core radiator.

03-31-2005, 12:23 AM	#36
82 GT Import Slayer Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 2,241	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! Oooops...my bad __________________ '82 GT 351W (.060)Comp Cams 274* Extreme Energy cam, ported & polished heads w/ 1.94/1.60 valves 10.3:1 flat top pistons,stealth intake, Mallory dizzy,Holley 750dp carb, BBK shorties,Flowmaster exhaust,C-4 with 3700 stall converter, B&M pro shifter,8.8 rear, 4:10's, subframes, electric fan, powermaster alternator, 4 core radiator.

03-31-2005, 08:03 AM	#37
USMC302 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Gallatin, Tn Posts: 1,326	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! Dark5.0, thanks for that and also the performance shop I talked to said yes ARP says one thing but he has never had a problem with too much torque on those bolts up to 100, I decided I'm going studs just to be on the safe side though. Like you, I have never had to torque aluminum heads down passed 70ft/lbs for a good seal. Andy669, yes I checked that, I was wishing it was only that easy. Also checked to make sure the dowels seated all the way once in the heads, it's not stopping the head from seating at all. Studs, 555, 95ft/lbs and let is sit over night before filling it up is what I'm going to try. But as mentioned before it seems pressure dependant and I was also told these were the symptoms of a crack (leak when heated). If this doesn't work, then I think it won't leak if it's at the bottom of the river. __________________

03-31-2005, 09:09 PM	#38
HotRoddin cranky old man Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Longview Texas Posts: 683	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! It may not be exactally what Andy said, but my bet would be something similar to that, like a puckered headbolt hole or something. Perhaps incompatable gasket / head / block combo ? If it can't hold coolant just starting it up and idling in the driveway then it has to be something obvious ... a large crack or a serious warp or low/high spot on the block / head. I'm curious about the leaking headbolts theory, even if you have coolant coming up past the bolt threads, that area is still sealed from the outside world by the head gasket ?? Anywho, like everybody else, I'm curious to see what ends up fixing this one, please let us know, and good luck __________________ Under Construction: 64 Falcon 372 cu in. stroker 1:72 rod ratio 6.250" rods (long rod), Comp Cams XE274 230/236 520/526 @ .050, Scorpion Rollers, Roush 200 irons, 10:1 Keith Blacks, Hedman long tubes, 750 Holley DP, Edelbrock Victor Jr., C4 3500 stall, gears and tires to be anounced.

04-01-2005, 11:59 PM	#40
82 GT Import Slayer Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 2,241	Re: Still leaking?!!!!!! Man...if this was me and I had this much trouble with the heads sealing, I would be so pissed off by now that I would probably weld the heads right to the block __________________ '82 GT 351W (.060)Comp Cams 274* Extreme Energy cam, ported & polished heads w/ 1.94/1.60 valves 10.3:1 flat top pistons,stealth intake, Mallory dizzy,Holley 750dp carb, BBK shorties,Flowmaster exhaust,C-4 with 3700 stall converter, B&M pro shifter,8.8 rear, 4:10's, subframes, electric fan, powermaster alternator, 4 core radiator.

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