How hot can aluminum heads get before they warp? - Page 3

PKRWUD · 08-07-2001, 11:54 AM

This is an interesting thread that I hadn't read until today. To answer your most recent question, it's extremely important that the t-stat opens at the proper temp, but you said this problem existed to the same extent with or without a t-stat installed, so I doubt that will solve everything, but it's still a wise idea to replace it with one that you have tested and verified to work properly. I recommend buying one from Ford. What I really wanted to touch on, that no else has, is your radiator cap. Maybe I misunderstood what you said, but I got the impression that when you pressure tested the system, and then let it run with the tester in place, you didn't have any problems. If that is correct, then your problem is largely based on having a defective cap. Maintaining pressure in the system is critical to running cool. Have your builder (or whoever pressure tested your system) check the cap to see how much pressure it holds. If it's less than 15 pounds, replace it with a cap that tests good to 15 pounds. The combination of a bad t-stat and a weak cap could and would lead to an overheating problem. The last thing I wanted clarification on was your fan, and the direction it is blowing. Right to left tells me nothing. I believe it was Jim that said it best: the leading edge of the fans rotation should be closest to the radiator. In other words, which ever way the blade rotates, the angled tip of each blade that is the closest to the radiator should be the leading direction in which the fan rotates. Is this the case with yours?

Let's figure this one out.

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

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08-07-2001, 10:05 PM

Heheheeh, reading your post is better than reading a factory manual!! How the hell you been PKRWD?

BilLster · 08-08-2001, 12:50 AM

http://www.kellnet.com/chambers/default.htm

this is where the article is

I hope it helps

------------------
89 with 395 single stage n2o .garret t3. 373's Suspention worked out finnaly . need cage .

Stang_ROTY · 08-08-2001, 07:02 AM

Yes, my fan's leading edge is facing the radiator so I guess it's blowing in the right direction. But it looks REALLY small compared to the engine.

I bought a Ford OEM thermo and placed it in a pan of water next to the STANT. Guess what? The Stant opened up first! So I took a ride and bought a Robert Shaw thermo last night. I haven't installed it yet but I DID try to install the Ford OEM. I wasn't happy. The thermo didn't open until my engine was at about 210-220 degrees. That's way to much for my engine. My reason for installing it was because I noticed a pressure valve at 12 0'clock that I assumed would help, but didn't. Today I'm going home after work and trying the 180 degree Robert Shaw thermo and installing a mechanical fan from Flex fan designed for reverse rotation. The shroud will be coming in tomarrow from the Ford dealer. I hope I can figure this out. This Sat. is Ford day at Lebanon Valley and I'd like to be part of the show even if I can't make a pass. 1 more question. What type of damage am I doing to my brand new engine by allowing it to keep heating up? I was thinking about it last night and it really started to bother me. I have this really expensive engine that hasn'e even been truely broken in and I keep getting it hot. Not to the point where it has ever boiled over, but it gets hot. Am I killing my engine?

PKRWUD · 08-08-2001, 08:23 AM

What about the cap? I'm surprised you had trouble with a Ford T-stat. The OEM replacement is a 192 degree t-stat. Did you specify a 180? Anyway, what did your cap test at? I just finished a replacing a turbo and a head on a Volvo because the lady that drove it didn't believe the cap could cause it to overheat. Instead of spending $6, she just paid me $3800.

If you really want to make this simple, you can. Pressure test the cap to 15 psi, put in a verified 180 t-stat, the stock pullies, a mechanical fan WITHOUT ANY CLUTCH, and a shroud that is no further away from the fan blades than a half inch. It is also important that the fan is spaced away from the engine exactly to the point where, when installed with the shroud, half of the blade is inside the shroud, and half is out. The fan is useless without a properly fitted shroud. The shroud's not there to protect your fingers, it's there to create a seal around the fan creating a vacuum that sucks cool air through your radiator. If you do those 5 simple things, you will either solve your problem, or make certian that the problem lies in the engine. If you would rather do part now, and part later, you're going to be chasing your tail, again.

Pressure test the cap at 15 psi.

Install a t-stat that is verified to open at 180 degrees.

Don't install the fan until you have the shroud, and measure and install them together so that the fan sits half in and half out of the shroud. And when you do install the fan and shroud, don't use a clutch.

Make sure you're mixture isn't more than 10% coolant in the radiator, and that the cap is on tight from the minute you start it. I couldn't tell from your other posts if you had been doing that or not, but do it this time.

If it overheats after that, you've got a problem with the engine.

As far as harming your engine goes, you should be fine, but make sure you retorque your head/intake/exhaust bolts before you start driving it.

Take care
~Chris

Hey rbatson!!
How are ya? I've been doing okay. I'm crewing for a different Sprint car team this year, and we're in first place! Check out my web site (link below). It pretty much tells the story. When you get there, check out the links on top. Especially, (you'll love this!) the "Ouch!!!" page. Click on that link, and scroll about halfway down. There you will see several pictures of what happens when a 650 horsepower small block "throws a couple rods". Great pictures! Make sure you click on them so you can see the big pictures, and all the detail! Send me an email after your done!

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

Stang_ROTY · 08-08-2001, 09:55 AM

I did not pressure test the cap. How can I do it? I'll try anything at this point.

QUOTE]Originally posted by PKRWUD:
[B]What about the cap?

No, I didn't specify 180, so naturally the Stant would open first. The funny thing is that these thermo's don't open until the water boils which is 212 degrees. What good is that doing my engine?

I'm surprised you had trouble with a Ford T-stat. The OEM replacement is a 192 degree t-stat. Did you specify a 180?

I DO want to make it simple. I have the stock crank pulley (from Mach) installed now. As far as the water pump pulley goes, it's part of the March kit #2010. March said that shouldn't be a problem 'cause the stock crank pulley is back in place. The fan is a flex-a-lite for reverse rotation and it is arriving today. The shroud will be in tomarrow. I have a 180 degree thermo made by Robert Shaw which everyone says is real good brand. Also, I have a police duty clutch from a 85 Crown Vic but I won't use it right away per your instructions. Also, I have started it with and without the cap. Without the cap some of the fluid blows out of the radiator and then needs to be refilled. I think it's also important to metion that I'm doing all this testing with the front end of the car on a decline. I should probably back it out of the driveway and get her on level ground for my next test, right? Thanks for the help.

If you really want to make this simple, you can. Pressure test the cap to 15 psi, put in a verified 180 t-stat, the stock pullies, a mechanical fan WITHOUT ANY CLUTCH, and a shroud that is no further away from the fan blades than a half inch. It is also important that the fan is spaced away from the engine exactly to the point where, when installed with the shroud, half of the blade is inside the shroud, and half is out. The fan is useless without a properly fitted shroud. The shroud's not there to protect your fingers, it's there to create a seal around the fan creating a vacuum that sucks cool air through your radiator. If you do those 5 simple things, you will either solve your problem, or make certian that the problem lies in the engine. If you would rather do part now, and part later, you're going to be chasing your tail, again.

Stang_ROTY · 08-08-2001, 10:03 AM

I forgot to ask you what the pressure valve on the OEM thermo is for and why are they not on the STANT and Robert Shaw thermo's?

PKRWUD · 08-08-2001, 10:48 AM

Hey, i'm just trying to help you.

When you pressure tested the cooling system, it should have been with what looked like a bicycle pump with a hose going to a cap that screwed onto the radiator in place of the radiator cap. By pumping the pump, you apply pressure to the system. Well, the kit that the pump came in also has an attachment that is really just two radiator water necks welded together. You attach the pump to one end, and the cap to the other, and pump it up to the desired pressure, and verify that it holds. You will need to grab your cap and go see the guy who tested your cooling system for you, and ask him to check the cap. It will only take a second, but is very important.

"No, I didn't specify 180, so naturally the Stant would open first. The funny thing is that these thermo's don't open until the water boils which is 212 degrees. What good is that doing my engine?"

When the cap is in place, and the system is sealed, the boiling point rises. With the cap off, or on but not holding pressure, the boiling point lowers.

Please clarify for me if I understood you correctly when you said that you didn't have any problems the time you ran it while the pressure tester was installed.

And yes, you need to have the car on either on level ground, or with the front higher. You always want the radiator cap to be higher than any other part of the cooling system, otherwise you will have air pockets. If you can get to eye level with the cap, and look towards the engine, see if any part of the engine is higher that the cap. If it is, you had air the the system.

The fan clutch you have will probably be fine, but I want you to skip it at first. Otherwise you'll be wondering if the clutch was any good. I'm trying to eliminate as many variables as possible. Keep it simple. The placement of the fan in relation to the shroud is critical, and it would be wise to do them both at the same time. If you have the Shaw t-stat, go test it. Make sure you raise the heat slowly, though.

I really believe that your problems are due to several little things, and if I'm wrong, at least you will have eliminated them all.

Okay, here you go:

Have the cap checked. It must hold pressure at 15 psi.

test and install a 180 t-stat.

Install the fan and shroud like I described before.

Park your car on level ground, and fill it up with water only. If there is some coolant already in the system, leave it, but top it off with only water. cap it and start it.

I can't always get to the sight, but I want to help you with this. You can email me at pkrwuds@pacbell.net if you have any other questions, and even if you don't, keep me posted!

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

matt cook · 08-08-2001, 11:40 AM

in repetition, it's good to hear from you pkrwud...a word to all the newer folk, listen to this guy.

that's all.

------------------
1982 Mustang GT

Stang_ROTY · 08-08-2001, 11:41 AM

FYI-When we ran the engine with the pump attached in place of the cap the engine was nice and cool, under 210 degrees. No change in pressure was seen and even after we shut her down it was a few minutes before the pressure dropped enough to remove the tester. Also, I forgot to ask you if I need to drill a hole for pressure a la OEM thermo. in the Shaw 180 thermo.

I am really beginning to think that my problem has a lot to do with my car being parked on a decline. Every test we've done has been when the car was on a decline, so hopefully 1) moving the car out of the driveway 2) emptying and re-filling the coolant system with water (to rid the system of air pockets), 3)putting in a good 180 thermo., and 4)installing the Flex-fan (w/out clutch but with shroud) should keep me cool. But once again the shroud probably won't come in until Thurs. so I won't even attemp to turn her over tonight. I'll just install the thermo. and fan and get prepared for the shroud and the final test Thurs. Boy am I gonna be nervous! This car has been stressing me as I've spent almost a year researching and building this car. Thanks a lot for the help. I really appreciate it. You sound like a pro and I'm lucky to have you helping me along with all the other fellow "Stangers" and Ford Men.

sydhawk · 08-08-2001, 12:36 PM

Do not run the car without a therm.You didn't say if you had a cooling system on the car or not.If you don't get one.You need a seperator tank and at least a three core rad.The tank will remove air from the system.Air is the biggest culprit of high heat problems.It will hook up to the bottom rad hose.It must be {the tank}located higher then the rad.Strut tower by the coil works.

PKRWUD · 08-08-2001, 11:55 PM

I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you refire tomorrow (Thursday), provided you PRESSURE TEST THE CAP. you didn't mention that in your last post, yet I believe it's the number one contributor to your problem. You even said so in the first paragraph:

"FYI-When we ran the engine with the pump attached in place of the cap the engine was nice and cool,"

That's why I joined this thread in the first place. I thought I read that you said that, which pretty much tells me your cap sucks. The other factors are equally important, and none should be overlooked, but please take care of the cap. If you can't get yours tested, then just go buy a vented 17 pound Stant cap (with the little red lock on it). In fact, do that anyway. Test the cap later when you have time, but before you fire it up, install a new 17 pound cap with a pressure relief valve on it (the Stant one with the red thing).

HEY, also, don't forget to re-torque your bolts SOON (intake/head/exhaust)! Go ahead and drive it for a day, but that's it. All of these hot/cold cycles have expanded and contracted the heads enough to put a permenant "crush" into the gaskets, which is why they should always be retorqued after the first few days.

Now, GO BUY THAT CAP!!!

Take care
~Chris

Hey Matt! Very nice to hear from you! Thanks for the kind words! It really amazes me that even after being gone from here for over a year, people still remember me. That's kinda cool. Thanks!

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

Stang_ROTY · 08-09-2001, 06:42 AM

Funny you mentioned the cap with the release valve. I had one of those in my hands and the idiots at Advanced A$$holes told me it wouldn't do me any good. Those guys are brilliant. Anyway, I will pick up one of those caps and the shroud later today and install the robert Shaw 180 degree thermo. and the reverse rotation flexfan. It's hotter than hell up here in the NorthEast so this will be a good test of the "new" cooling system. Today is the big day for me. If this doesn't work...nevermind...it WILL work. I have to stay confident. Thanks for all the advice gentlemen, I really appreciate it. Wish me luck. I'll post the results later tonight. Thanks again.

PKRWUD · 08-09-2001, 11:10 AM

You won't need luck, but you might want to jot down everything so you don't forget. As far as the cap goes, the reason you want a release valve is because you will be generating more pressure (thus a 17 pound cap), and the valve makes it easier and safer to relieve the pressure when necessary. If they try and talk you into something else, ignore them.

have fun!

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

[This message has been edited by PKRWUD (edited 08-09-2001).]

Stang_ROTY · 08-09-2001, 03:02 PM

Do you still want me to start the engine filled with water and with the cap off??

PKRWUD · 08-09-2001, 06:02 PM

On level ground, top off the radiator with water, and put the cap on tight. Then start it. The idea of leaving the cap off is only for when the entire system has been drained, and you need to wait for the t-stat to open to finish filling the system. You should be fine by toppingh off the radiator, ON LEVEL GROUND! Have fun!

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

jimberg · 08-09-2001, 07:56 PM

Chris, I popped for the $8 cap and wow, my temps seem a lot better. I wasn't having cooling problems to the degree that Stang_ROTY is having, but I figured it's got 165K on it so what the heck.

The temp holds much more steady now.

------------------
351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

PKRWUD · 08-09-2001, 09:16 PM

Excellent Jim! It really seems to take people by surprise, that a good sealing cap is important, as is the pressure it will keep. That's just one of the "little" things I learned working for Bill Elliott. We sometimes used 30 pound caps! Anyway, I'm always happy to hear of something good getting better!

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

Stang_ROTY · 08-09-2001, 10:57 PM

Wow, it was hot tonight! When I got out of work it was 101 degrees. Needless to say, I didn't get everything in tonight b/c once again I forgot NOTHING comes with bolts and nuts these days so I need to find something to clamp the shroud to the rad. support on the bottom. Looks like everything will fit ok. We (in the NE) should be getting some relief tonight so I'll be out 1st thing in the morning tomorrow to start her. Thanks

PKRWUD · 08-09-2001, 11:20 PM

Fukker. I've been checking back here all day! that's cool, though. let me know how things go.

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

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08-07-2001, 11:54 AM	#41
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	This is an interesting thread that I hadn't read until today. To answer your most recent question, it's extremely important that the t-stat opens at the proper temp, but you said this problem existed to the same extent with or without a t-stat installed, so I doubt that will solve everything, but it's still a wise idea to replace it with one that you have tested and verified to work properly. I recommend buying one from Ford. What I really wanted to touch on, that no else has, is your radiator cap. Maybe I misunderstood what you said, but I got the impression that when you pressure tested the system, and then let it run with the tester in place, you didn't have any problems. If that is correct, then your problem is largely based on having a defective cap. Maintaining pressure in the system is critical to running cool. Have your builder (or whoever pressure tested your system) check the cap to see how much pressure it holds. If it's less than 15 pounds, replace it with a cap that tests good to 15 pounds. The combination of a bad t-stat and a weak cap could and would lead to an overheating problem. The last thing I wanted clarification on was your fan, and the direction it is blowing. Right to left tells me nothing. I believe it was Jim that said it best: the leading edge of the fans rotation should be closest to the radiator. In other words, which ever way the blade rotates, the angled tip of each blade that is the closest to the radiator should be the leading direction in which the fan rotates. Is this the case with yours? Let's figure this one out. Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

08-07-2001, 10:05 PM	#42
rbatson Guest Posts: n/a	Heheheeh, reading your post is better than reading a factory manual!! How the hell you been PKRWD?

08-08-2001, 12:50 AM	#43
BilLster Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Ontario canada Posts: 446	http://www.kellnet.com/chambers/default.htm this is where the article is I hope it helps ------------------ 89 with 395 single stage n2o .garret t3. 373's Suspention worked out finnaly . need cage .

08-08-2001, 07:02 AM	#44
Stang_ROTY Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Berkshire County - Massachusetts Posts: 735	Yes, my fan's leading edge is facing the radiator so I guess it's blowing in the right direction. But it looks REALLY small compared to the engine. I bought a Ford OEM thermo and placed it in a pan of water next to the STANT. Guess what? The Stant opened up first! So I took a ride and bought a Robert Shaw thermo last night. I haven't installed it yet but I DID try to install the Ford OEM. I wasn't happy. The thermo didn't open until my engine was at about 210-220 degrees. That's way to much for my engine. My reason for installing it was because I noticed a pressure valve at 12 0'clock that I assumed would help, but didn't. Today I'm going home after work and trying the 180 degree Robert Shaw thermo and installing a mechanical fan from Flex fan designed for reverse rotation. The shroud will be coming in tomarrow from the Ford dealer. I hope I can figure this out. This Sat. is Ford day at Lebanon Valley and I'd like to be part of the show even if I can't make a pass. 1 more question. What type of damage am I doing to my brand new engine by allowing it to keep heating up? I was thinking about it last night and it really started to bother me. I have this really expensive engine that hasn'e even been truely broken in and I keep getting it hot. Not to the point where it has ever boiled over, but it gets hot. Am I killing my engine?

08-08-2001, 08:23 AM	#45
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	What about the cap? I'm surprised you had trouble with a Ford T-stat. The OEM replacement is a 192 degree t-stat. Did you specify a 180? Anyway, what did your cap test at? I just finished a replacing a turbo and a head on a Volvo because the lady that drove it didn't believe the cap could cause it to overheat. Instead of spending $6, she just paid me $3800. If you really want to make this simple, you can. Pressure test the cap to 15 psi, put in a verified 180 t-stat, the stock pullies, a mechanical fan WITHOUT ANY CLUTCH, and a shroud that is no further away from the fan blades than a half inch. It is also important that the fan is spaced away from the engine exactly to the point where, when installed with the shroud, half of the blade is inside the shroud, and half is out. The fan is useless without a properly fitted shroud. The shroud's not there to protect your fingers, it's there to create a seal around the fan creating a vacuum that sucks cool air through your radiator. If you do those 5 simple things, you will either solve your problem, or make certian that the problem lies in the engine. If you would rather do part now, and part later, you're going to be chasing your tail, again. Pressure test the cap at 15 psi. Install a t-stat that is verified to open at 180 degrees. Don't install the fan until you have the shroud, and measure and install them together so that the fan sits half in and half out of the shroud. And when you do install the fan and shroud, don't use a clutch. Make sure you're mixture isn't more than 10% coolant in the radiator, and that the cap is on tight from the minute you start it. I couldn't tell from your other posts if you had been doing that or not, but do it this time. If it overheats after that, you've got a problem with the engine. As far as harming your engine goes, you should be fine, but make sure you retorque your head/intake/exhaust bolts before you start driving it. Take care ~Chris Hey rbatson!! How are ya? I've been doing okay. I'm crewing for a different Sprint car team this year, and we're in first place! Check out my web site (link below). It pretty much tells the story. When you get there, check out the links on top. Especially, (you'll love this!) the "Ouch!!!" page. Click on that link, and scroll about halfway down. There you will see several pictures of what happens when a 650 horsepower small block "throws a couple rods". Great pictures! Make sure you click on them so you can see the big pictures, and all the detail! Send me an email after your done! Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

08-08-2001, 09:55 AM	#46
Stang_ROTY Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Berkshire County - Massachusetts Posts: 735	I did not pressure test the cap. How can I do it? I'll try anything at this point. QUOTE]Originally posted by PKRWUD: [B]What about the cap? No, I didn't specify 180, so naturally the Stant would open first. The funny thing is that these thermo's don't open until the water boils which is 212 degrees. What good is that doing my engine? I'm surprised you had trouble with a Ford T-stat. The OEM replacement is a 192 degree t-stat. Did you specify a 180? I DO want to make it simple. I have the stock crank pulley (from Mach) installed now. As far as the water pump pulley goes, it's part of the March kit #2010. March said that shouldn't be a problem 'cause the stock crank pulley is back in place. The fan is a flex-a-lite for reverse rotation and it is arriving today. The shroud will be in tomarrow. I have a 180 degree thermo made by Robert Shaw which everyone says is real good brand. Also, I have a police duty clutch from a 85 Crown Vic but I won't use it right away per your instructions. Also, I have started it with and without the cap. Without the cap some of the fluid blows out of the radiator and then needs to be refilled. I think it's also important to metion that I'm doing all this testing with the front end of the car on a decline. I should probably back it out of the driveway and get her on level ground for my next test, right? Thanks for the help. If you really want to make this simple, you can. Pressure test the cap to 15 psi, put in a verified 180 t-stat, the stock pullies, a mechanical fan WITHOUT ANY CLUTCH, and a shroud that is no further away from the fan blades than a half inch. It is also important that the fan is spaced away from the engine exactly to the point where, when installed with the shroud, half of the blade is inside the shroud, and half is out. The fan is useless without a properly fitted shroud. The shroud's not there to protect your fingers, it's there to create a seal around the fan creating a vacuum that sucks cool air through your radiator. If you do those 5 simple things, you will either solve your problem, or make certian that the problem lies in the engine. If you would rather do part now, and part later, you're going to be chasing your tail, again.

08-08-2001, 10:03 AM	#47
Stang_ROTY Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Berkshire County - Massachusetts Posts: 735	I forgot to ask you what the pressure valve on the OEM thermo is for and why are they not on the STANT and Robert Shaw thermo's?

08-08-2001, 10:48 AM	#48
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Hey, i'm just trying to help you. When you pressure tested the cooling system, it should have been with what looked like a bicycle pump with a hose going to a cap that screwed onto the radiator in place of the radiator cap. By pumping the pump, you apply pressure to the system. Well, the kit that the pump came in also has an attachment that is really just two radiator water necks welded together. You attach the pump to one end, and the cap to the other, and pump it up to the desired pressure, and verify that it holds. You will need to grab your cap and go see the guy who tested your cooling system for you, and ask him to check the cap. It will only take a second, but is very important. "No, I didn't specify 180, so naturally the Stant would open first. The funny thing is that these thermo's don't open until the water boils which is 212 degrees. What good is that doing my engine?" When the cap is in place, and the system is sealed, the boiling point rises. With the cap off, or on but not holding pressure, the boiling point lowers. Please clarify for me if I understood you correctly when you said that you didn't have any problems the time you ran it while the pressure tester was installed. And yes, you need to have the car on either on level ground, or with the front higher. You always want the radiator cap to be higher than any other part of the cooling system, otherwise you will have air pockets. If you can get to eye level with the cap, and look towards the engine, see if any part of the engine is higher that the cap. If it is, you had air the the system. The fan clutch you have will probably be fine, but I want you to skip it at first. Otherwise you'll be wondering if the clutch was any good. I'm trying to eliminate as many variables as possible. Keep it simple. The placement of the fan in relation to the shroud is critical, and it would be wise to do them both at the same time. If you have the Shaw t-stat, go test it. Make sure you raise the heat slowly, though. I really believe that your problems are due to several little things, and if I'm wrong, at least you will have eliminated them all. Okay, here you go: Have the cap checked. It must hold pressure at 15 psi. test and install a 180 t-stat. Install the fan and shroud like I described before. Park your car on level ground, and fill it up with water only. If there is some coolant already in the system, leave it, but top it off with only water. cap it and start it. I can't always get to the sight, but I want to help you with this. You can email me at pkrwuds@pacbell.net if you have any other questions, and even if you don't, keep me posted! Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

08-08-2001, 11:40 AM	#49
matt cook Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: Richmond, Virginia Posts: 449	in repetition, it's good to hear from you pkrwud...a word to all the newer folk, listen to this guy. that's all. ------------------ 1982 Mustang GT

08-08-2001, 11:41 AM	#50
Stang_ROTY Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Berkshire County - Massachusetts Posts: 735	FYI-When we ran the engine with the pump attached in place of the cap the engine was nice and cool, under 210 degrees. No change in pressure was seen and even after we shut her down it was a few minutes before the pressure dropped enough to remove the tester. Also, I forgot to ask you if I need to drill a hole for pressure a la OEM thermo. in the Shaw 180 thermo. I am really beginning to think that my problem has a lot to do with my car being parked on a decline. Every test we've done has been when the car was on a decline, so hopefully 1) moving the car out of the driveway 2) emptying and re-filling the coolant system with water (to rid the system of air pockets), 3)putting in a good 180 thermo., and 4)installing the Flex-fan (w/out clutch but with shroud) should keep me cool. But once again the shroud probably won't come in until Thurs. so I won't even attemp to turn her over tonight. I'll just install the thermo. and fan and get prepared for the shroud and the final test Thurs. Boy am I gonna be nervous! This car has been stressing me as I've spent almost a year researching and building this car. Thanks a lot for the help. I really appreciate it. You sound like a pro and I'm lucky to have you helping me along with all the other fellow "Stangers" and Ford Men.

08-08-2001, 12:36 PM	#51
sydhawk Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: canada Posts: 6	Do not run the car without a therm.You didn't say if you had a cooling system on the car or not.If you don't get one.You need a seperator tank and at least a three core rad.The tank will remove air from the system.Air is the biggest culprit of high heat problems.It will hook up to the bottom rad hose.It must be {the tank}located higher then the rad.Strut tower by the coil works.

08-08-2001, 11:55 PM	#52
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you refire tomorrow (Thursday), provided you PRESSURE TEST THE CAP. you didn't mention that in your last post, yet I believe it's the number one contributor to your problem. You even said so in the first paragraph: "FYI-When we ran the engine with the pump attached in place of the cap the engine was nice and cool," That's why I joined this thread in the first place. I thought I read that you said that, which pretty much tells me your cap sucks. The other factors are equally important, and none should be overlooked, but please take care of the cap. If you can't get yours tested, then just go buy a vented 17 pound Stant cap (with the little red lock on it). In fact, do that anyway. Test the cap later when you have time, but before you fire it up, install a new 17 pound cap with a pressure relief valve on it (the Stant one with the red thing). HEY, also, don't forget to re-torque your bolts SOON (intake/head/exhaust)! Go ahead and drive it for a day, but that's it. All of these hot/cold cycles have expanded and contracted the heads enough to put a permenant "crush" into the gaskets, which is why they should always be retorqued after the first few days. Now, GO BUY THAT CAP!!! Take care ~Chris Hey Matt! Very nice to hear from you! Thanks for the kind words! It really amazes me that even after being gone from here for over a year, people still remember me. That's kinda cool. Thanks! Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

08-09-2001, 06:42 AM	#53
Stang_ROTY Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Berkshire County - Massachusetts Posts: 735	Funny you mentioned the cap with the release valve. I had one of those in my hands and the idiots at Advanced A$$holes told me it wouldn't do me any good. Those guys are brilliant. Anyway, I will pick up one of those caps and the shroud later today and install the robert Shaw 180 degree thermo. and the reverse rotation flexfan. It's hotter than hell up here in the NorthEast so this will be a good test of the "new" cooling system. Today is the big day for me. If this doesn't work...nevermind...it WILL work. I have to stay confident. Thanks for all the advice gentlemen, I really appreciate it. Wish me luck. I'll post the results later tonight. Thanks again.

08-09-2001, 11:10 AM	#54
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	You won't need luck, but you might want to jot down everything so you don't forget. As far as the cap goes, the reason you want a release valve is because you will be generating more pressure (thus a 17 pound cap), and the valve makes it easier and safer to relieve the pressure when necessary. If they try and talk you into something else, ignore them. have fun! Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!! [This message has been edited by PKRWUD (edited 08-09-2001).]

08-09-2001, 03:02 PM	#55
Stang_ROTY Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Berkshire County - Massachusetts Posts: 735	Do you still want me to start the engine filled with water and with the cap off??

08-09-2001, 06:02 PM	#56
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	On level ground, top off the radiator with water, and put the cap on tight. Then start it. The idea of leaving the cap off is only for when the entire system has been drained, and you need to wait for the t-stat to open to finish filling the system. You should be fine by toppingh off the radiator, ON LEVEL GROUND! Have fun! Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

08-09-2001, 07:56 PM	#57
jimberg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 2,089	Chris, I popped for the $8 cap and wow, my temps seem a lot better. I wasn't having cooling problems to the degree that Stang_ROTY is having, but I figured it's got 165K on it so what the heck. The temp holds much more steady now. ------------------ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

08-09-2001, 09:16 PM	#58
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Excellent Jim! It really seems to take people by surprise, that a good sealing cap is important, as is the pressure it will keep. That's just one of the "little" things I learned working for Bill Elliott. We sometimes used 30 pound caps! Anyway, I'm always happy to hear of something good getting better! Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

08-09-2001, 10:57 PM	#59
Stang_ROTY Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Berkshire County - Massachusetts Posts: 735	Wow, it was hot tonight! When I got out of work it was 101 degrees. Needless to say, I didn't get everything in tonight b/c once again I forgot NOTHING comes with bolts and nuts these days so I need to find something to clamp the shroud to the rad. support on the bottom. Looks like everything will fit ok. We (in the NE) should be getting some relief tonight so I'll be out 1st thing in the morning tomorrow to start her. Thanks

08-09-2001, 11:20 PM	#60
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Fukker. I've been checking back here all day! that's cool, though. let me know how things go. Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!