3k for 302

[Scrapla]

Just dropped off my heads and upper and lower intake to get ported and asked about building a short block 302 with the hyper. pistons, I was quoted 3k for everything including installation which is a bit much for me but its a very clean proffesional shop now on the other hand I got another shop that will build me a 302 same specs minus the extra stuff like high volume oil pump for $1,250 plus the install charge and swap out mine, now for someone to build a 302 with new internals bolt on all my stuff including a high volume oil pump and have a proffesional job is $3,000 worth it guys or should I take my chances with the budget man?

[Ackbar00]

Sounds a little high for a stock block, but ther is a lot of labor involved for switching out the short block. Now me peronlay I would get a 331 or 347 from a engine bulider for anywhere around 2200 to 2600$ and do the install myself. Granted I have about 3 friends who would help not to mention a shop at my disposial. BTW, I love your avitar! I think I will use it on another message board.

[84LX89GT]

Yeah, i'd much rather get a Ford Racing remanufactured engine or another well known company rebuilt engine that to trust a company you may not know much about's reputation. Alot of these places don't have a warranty and they may end up pointing a finger at you if there are any failures even if they're their fault. Another thing is you get what you pay for, the place that will build it for 3,000 may actually have everything balanced, plastigage check things, clean the entire engine thoroughly and just have better building skills (checking more clearances) than the budget guys. Also it sounds like the budget rebuilders just have a generic engine to swap in, which i've toured a company that rebuilds engines the way it sounds like the budget company you're talking about does and needless to say i wasn't impressed with the level of detail and time paid to these engines (VERY little time is spent), in fact they can bust an engine together in no time at all, but i wouldn't trust the measurements they do.

They say every company can only have 2 out of these 3 things: Good quality, cheap cost or Quick service. If you think about what each of these companies is willing to do, pick what quality you could do without and that will help find what you want.

Good luck, i hope you find what you're looking for

[Scrapla]

My freinds shop is very respectable hes being in the bizz for over 25years and has raced all his life, all mechanics are ase certified and have just as much expeirence, 3k was for the building og the short block and porting all my parts which was the whole intake system from heads to upper and lower intake and the actual swapping out of the motors cause I have no space or time do it myself nor do I have the knowledge.

[Ron1]

I know money is tight, but if you can can spare it, go for a forged piston instead of the Hyper's. I also see no reason for a high volume oil pump when stock will do. That's what I run with an 8 quart Canton baffled pan. Just an off the shelf pump from your local auto parts store. Never a problem.

Ron

[Scrapla]

Hey ron could you steer me in the right direction cause ive been finding it cheaper for me to hunt down the parts and just give them to him to install I think ive seen forged piston kits for like $350-$400 I might be wrong but would apreciate some help and advice, thanks.

[Ron1]

A friend by the name of Dave Lohrey owns a company called www.jdsperformance.com in Florida. I think if you contact Dave, tell him Ron said to call and that he could help you. I think you should be in good shape. Let him know what you are trying to do, and he will lead you in the right direction. If he can't let me know. What you are doing by chasing down the parts yourself, is saving the mark-up they ususally put in. Smart.

Ron

[HotRoddin]

Originally posted by Ron1
but if you can can spare it, go for a forged piston instead of the Hyper's. I also see no reason for a high volume oil pump when stock will do..

Ron

I don't get it .... you don't want him to spend a extra 15 bucks for a high performance oil pump, but you suggest he spends an extra 2 or 3 hundred dollars on forged pistons that serve no purpose on N/A street engine except to slap until the warm up ?
Unless you are going to hit it with a big shot of nitrous or a ton of boost or run an insanely high compression ratio, then a good hi performance hyperutectic piston like the keith blacks, are actually better on the street. You can run them tighter (no slapping, no ring flutter), because they don't expand and contract nearly as much as a forging does. Will they melt down if you let the engine detonate badly ... yep, but so will forgings! Thats my .02 cents worth

[Coupe50h]

my pistons dont slap?

[Ron1]

Well lets see now. He's getting his heads ported, upper & lower ported, hmmm...makes me think he wants to make some power. The odds are probably good that 6 months or a year from now he may ad some nitrous or who knows what. If he does, he won't have to think twice about his internals because he knows he has good parts.
I can only speak from personal experience, but I really hate doing things twice. I also qualified what I said by saying, IF your budget can afford it. I'm not telling him to do anything, he (I am sure) will make up his own mind once he weighs all the pro's and con's.
You have some data on this slapping & fluttering I can read?
I'm sure we would all like to read up on it..

Ron

[Scrapla]

In the future I would like to add a little boost like maybe a 6lb sc or maybe a nos dry kit 100hp.

[HotRoddin]

Originally posted by Ron1
I also qualified what I said by saying, IF your budget can afford it.

You have some data on this slapping & fluttering I can read?
I'm sure we would all like to read up on it..

Ron

And i qualified what i said by saying it was my 2 cents worth
As for the slapping ... sometimes you barely notice it sometimes the motor sounds like a bucket of rocks until it warms up ... thats been common knowledge since they started using forgings for pistons. You have to run them significantly looser because they expand significantly more when they heat up, so when they're still cold they're loose as a goose and they rock (skirts slap) in the bore.

http://www.kb-silvolite.com/page11.htm

heres a tid bit from glm-marine.com
"An example of the dramatic expansion of forged pistons is the piston skirt clearances in the cylinder. A typical cast piston has a skirt clearance of approximately .0007 to .0009. A forged piston has a skirt clearance of .005 to .007. The forged piston has 10 times more slop in the cylinder. This results in less ring stability against the cylinderical wall, more piston noise and extra blowby."

Now i'll make the same challenge to you that you made to me ... show me some data that says high performance hyperutectic pistons are no good. I know people make that statement all the time but i think for the most part they're just saying it because they heard someone else say it, and that don't make it so ... The mfgs say they are fine up to about 100 HP shot of N2O or mild to med turbo or supercharger use. I've seen no hard data that proves that statement wrong. If you have some i'd truely like to see it.
One more for the road ...note the pistons used under specifications for 2001 section, and this is a 10 sec car
http://www.toohighpsi.com/DadTT/dadTT.htm

[Ron1]

I find it interesting that the link you provided is the exact write up from KB that I looked at 5 years ago. I don't put a lot of stock in any manufacturers claims, since they are in the business of selling you that product. Having said that, and in looking at the changes that have occured in the technologies over the past 5 years, the new alloys now being used for the forged pistons have eliminated the expansion problems that may have once existed. Ross, JE, Speedpro have all gone to the new alloys. All I can do is quote from publications by Joe Pettit and David Vizard, who make it very clear, that if you have the intent at some point of adding N2O, hypers are not the way to go.

If the expansion issues were real 5 years ago, form what I have seen and read recently, the issue was resolved.

I could be wrong, but for my application, I selected forged over hyper, knowing that the motor would see N2O sometime down stream. And the price difference between the 2 have come a lot closer.

Ron

[HotRoddin]

Originally posted by Ron1
I find it interesting that the link you provided is the exact write up from KB that I looked at 5 years ago. I don't put a lot of stock in any manufacturers claims, since they are in the business of selling you that product. Having said that, and in looking at the changes that have occured in the technologies over the past 5 years, the new alloys now being used for the forged pistons have eliminated the expansion problems that may have once existed. Ross, JE, Speedpro have all gone to the new alloys. All I can do is quote from publications by Joe Pettit and David Vizard, who make it very clear, that if you have the intent at some point of adding N2O, hypers are not the way to go.

If the expansion issues were real 5 years ago, form what I have seen and read recently, the issue was resolved.

I could be wrong, but for my application, I selected forged over hyper, knowing that the motor would see N2O sometime down stream. And the price difference between the 2 have come a lot closer.

Ron

Well apparently you didn't read the whole post, because there was 3 links, not just the one to universal machine.
i'm puzzled why you believe that the head piston engineer at universal machine, which is very large piston mfg has no credibility just because he works for the company, yet david vizard, a book writer does ?
As far as the new alloys go ... if forged pistons no longer have a higher expansion rate than cast pistons then why are they still using significantly more clearance with forgings ?
Since this has become a pissing match between you and i , I'm gonna end my end of it with this last statement which i believe, and which i stand by and which is completely logical .....
I would not use hyperutectic pistons in a funny car or even a drag strip only car or even a heavily nitroused or supercharged motor ... but for a street strip car with a light dose of nitrous or boost , there is nothing wrong with the new high performance hyperutectic pistons, in fact they hold a couple of atvantages over forged pistons for street use, not the least of which is price.
Thats it, i've said my piece ... we're still friends right?

[Ron1]

Friends, of course. I don't think there is anything wrong with the hyper's for those applications, as long as there are limitations, and I think you have made those perfectly clear. I don't even view this as a pissing contest, those never seem to be very civil.
Maybe I am looking at this too much from my perspective, since I spend the majority of my time focusing on drag racing end of the business.

Can't learn anything new if you don't listen to other's opinions and perspectives.

Good luck,

Ron

[Scrapla]

Well thanks for the advice I didnt wanna start a pissin contest but hey I heard alotta diff. views which is what I wanted I decided on just using my block, hes gonna pull it and rebuild it and throw it back in and goin with forged internals, i found a nice beater truck to drive around while this is all goin on, thanks again for the advice.