Mounting cylinder heads without a gasket?

[crazypete]

I hear on one 3.8 v-6's of old, the entire engine was assembled without gaskets and just used rtv silicone. Right now I am working on mounting some 1971 351C 2v heads to my 91 302 block and neither of the gaskets seem to line up the ports properly. In addition, these heads are open chamber so I will lose compression. Now.... I hear if you dont use ther gaskets and just rtv silicone, you will raise the compression a notch. Will there be much strength concerns with such a setup if used on a low rpm application?

[tireburner163]

No dear God, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RTV will NOT work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Oh and the reason the Clevland heads aren't mounting up right is because they don't phuckin fix on a 302 block.




-Josh, aka the tireburner

[crazypete]

Actually, the cleveland heads are pretty darn close. I made the mistake of getting NAPA gaskets and they're...not like a plate with holes, theyre like little metal rings where the stock coolant ports and cylinders are and this is connected by gasket material. Problem is it unshrouds two of the heads' coolant ports so I would need to goop these anyway.

When you said "noooooo, God nooooo!", why not? RTV is strong as hell. There wouldnt be a weakpoint like with a gasket since it would now be metal on metal held together with bolts instead of some cradboardlike stuff.

BTW All the bolt holes line up just fine. I'll need to port my intake to have oval ports and port my headers to match the crazy oval ports but it's all under control!

[mustangII460]

Windsors get coolant from the intake, clevelands from the block. There is a passage on the cleveland head that has to welded shut. Also a hole needs to be drilled on the intake side of the head to get coolant windsor style. Kinda a pain in the arse.

The only reason I would not do it. You don't have but a couple of intake choices and they cost bucks $$. (special intake)

[82 GT]

Now I know why you're called CRAZY PETE !!

[Dark_5.0]

I could understand going through all that trouble if these were cylinder heads that were hand crafted by God himself.

Sounds like a whole lot of grinding and drilling to me not to mention the gasket absorbs fluctuations in the steel from cooling and expansion. Without a gasket you will be in trouble.

Good luck,

[420nitro]

You know...I have heard of people running a complete engine assembled with no gaskets! They used RTV for the entire thing! It lasted for a little while. It was only to prove a point, but never to be perminant. I think it had something to do with selling RTV when it first came out or something like that. The car they used it on was on a race track and quickley torn down after like 2 hours of run time. But anyways.....use gaskets... man.

[crazypete]

Well, you guys sold me on using the gaskets! The heads look so beautiful after all the porting I've done and I fully plan on torturing the intake (it's aluminum after all) until the ports line up and look the same. I'll do something similar on the exhaust.

I wanna thump my chest and say that I did something different. When I walk into an autoparts store and mention I'm doing the "clevor" thing, some of the older guys get that tear in their eye expression =)

[tireburner163]

You can put Clevland heads on on a Windsor block but it requires machine work to the heads so that the water passages will work.

[crazypete]

Now with the special intake I need.... is it because of port location or port shape or height. Port shape is no problem. I feel like I've broken myself in grinding away hardened steel heads with rotary files and a drill. A soft aluminum intake will seem like butter by comparison. I examined the stock gasket and it looks like the ports are in the same place but are square rather than round. I was planning on simply rounding off my edelbrock performer to make it fit.

Would pushrods and pistons be the same or do I need special pushrods/pistons too? Those valves on the clevelands are enourmous!

[tireburner163]

Ok, you don't seem to be getting the point

1) You CAN NOT put Clevland heads on a Windsor based motor without having machine work done to the heads. The Clevland style water jacket ports have to be plugged and new Windsor style ports have to be drilled in the heads. If you don't do this no water will flow through the heads.


2) You have two and ONLY two choices. You can run a special intake built for this application, which are getting very rare and hard to find, to my knowelage no company currently makes a intake for this application. OR you can run a windsor style intake and use a set of adaptor plates, there are a few companys that still make these.

3) The Clevland 2v heads have 75cc chambers. This will drop you compression to roughly 8.2:1 with stock pistons. The Clevland heads also have canted valves, so the valve reliefs in the stock pistons no longer match up to the valves. This limits your maximum lift you roughly .470" lift. Even the the FMS alphabet cam with the mildest lift (B-303) has .480 lift. The E-303 has a .498" lift.


IMHO you would be much better off just picking up a set of GT-40 irons somewhere. I got mine fro $275.

[crazypete]

That SUCKS because:

1. I already invested in a new set of valves and springs and 1.7 roller rockers ~300

2. I've spent many an afternoon cleaning up these heads and porting them so I'm emotionally invested in them.

I'm aware that I need to drill the ends of the head to open the water jacket and the block (that should be sufficient to enable coolant flow, right?) and I know which water ports need to be plugged since they were plugged when I got them.

But the piston issue seems insurmountable to the home mechanic short of new pistons or.... boring bigger reliefs into the existing pistons. Could I "flycut" the stock pistons? I would need to do the absolute most horrifying thing ever and cut them while they are still in the engine (with a shopvac next to the bit to get all the filings). I remember that the stock pistons are pretty thick from when I did a rebuild the first time around. Is there any hope for me or does this spell the end of the project?

[NO SLO PK]

Pushrods - because of the canted valve geometry, I'm 99 percent certain you will need different pushrods.

Pistons - have you looked for Boss 302 pistons? I believe these will have the reliefs you need...TRW makes part no. L2324F for the Boss 302. Price is close to $500 for the set. I believe you will need to use 289 rods to get the proper geometry. You will need to check a few other things for compatability, like pin sizes etc. IMO, this is a much safer solution than machining and weakening a Windsor piston.

Intakes - I think B&A (?) was the company that makes or made the Clevor intakes.

For a source on your intake, you might try calling Ford Power Parts at (714) 523-7900. They have all the old Ford hipo stuff, or can tell you where to find it. They could also advise you on constructing your Clevor, as they've done it before.

This sounds like an interesting project. Keep us posted!

[NO SLO PK]

Originally posted by crazypete
I would need to do the absolute most horrifying thing ever and cut them while they are still in the engine (with a shopvac next to the bit to get all the filings

Please, please don't. If you plan on doing this free-hand, you won't get consistent results and will risk messing up the balance of the rotating assembly...especially consdering how much you will have to cut away. Free-hand piston grinding can work for removing a SMALL amount of material.

[Coupe Devil]

Check Price Motorsports He makes the adapters to put any windsor intake on a 302, 351, makes all kinds of clevor parts.

[crazypete]

If I add up all the $$$ and trouble, I would be better off AFR'ing it and cold knowing that my setup will work and is streetable. I'm also half thinking of porting up my e7's myself now that I know what's going on. This cleveland head project needs to get shelved until I can afford to do it right and not be drilling my pistons and gasket stacking. I'm sure this setup will kick my own read end someday, but I think I need to lay it aside and work with what I have right now.

[NO SLO PK]

Originally posted by crazypete
If I add up all the $$$ and trouble, I would be better off AFR'ing it and cold knowing that my setup will work and is streetable. I'm also half thinking of porting up my e7's myself now that I know what's going on. This cleveland head project needs to get shelved until I can afford to do it right and not be drilling my pistons and gasket stacking. I'm sure this setup will kick my own read end someday, but I think I need to lay it aside and work with what I have right now.

You know the Clevor concept came about partly b/c there were no good heads for the Windsor family, at least back then. IMHO, it's still a sexy idea.

But as you mentioned, you can go faster for a lot cheaper than trying to get yesterday's heads to work.

[tireburner163]

Just sell the heads to some guy with a vintage stang and move on. Pick yourself up a set of GT-40 or GT-40P heads and port them yourself.

I'm betting you'll even go faster with the GT-40's than the Cleveland heads.





-Josh, aka the tireburner

[87BOSS351C]

If you want advice from people who have personally done this go to:

http://www.351cleveland.net

All the information you seek is there.