non-supercharged power building

[chiaronate]

hey guys. i have a 1994 mustang gt, and was thinking that the only way to get high horsepower and maintain good idle and driveability is to get a supercharger. can i do this naturally aspirated, and still have good low-end torque? any info would be appreciated. i have a 2.73 gear ratio, and will have 3.73's installed in a few days.

[lx5091]

Naturally aspirated means that you are not using a power-adder, you are simply sucking air through a filter. Power-adder's are items that force in air such as superchargers, turbochargers, etc or that create air through a chemical reaction such as nitrous. Once you bolt a power-adder on, your motor will no longer be narurally aspirated.

[chiaronate]

i know what naturally aspirated is. i guess i didn't make my post clear enough. what i meant was, i was wondering how to make good horsepower (350-400) and still have good street manners, such as good low-end torque and be reasonably good on gas. can i achieve this without artificial aspiration? or would it be better to bolt on a supercharger to maintain good low-end torque below 3000 rpm.

[Stang Runner]

Look at what I have not really that man mods you can ezly make a nice daily driver and still be N/A

[jim_howard_pdx]

Use the "B" Roller cam, Trick Flow Heads and Upper Manifold with 90 MM. Get a super chip. Use the 3.73 gears, you should be close to 13.5-14.0 ETs at 90+ MPH. Add a 170 hp squirt of NOS and you will be 450+ HP and running late 12's on street slicks.

Not bad at all.....

Only use the NOS on the track, not on the street. You will need to go forged pistons soon. Have the crank offset ground to get 331 CI and use the LONGEST Rod you can fit in the block. Upgrade to the X cam when you go forged pistons. This will put you over 500 HP on the NOS. Oh such fun.....

[chiaronate]

i've heard trick flow's head quality is bad. a very knowledgeable person who builds funny cars said the water jackets are too thin, but he doesn't know how they're made these days. a 'b' cam sounds like a good idea for keeping good low torque, but i'm afraid of changing the cam because i don't know it's affect on driveability. i have heard good things about trick flow's intake manifold. i heard that it prevents front cylinder air starvation, does the cobra intake manifold do the same? i'd rather not use nitrous. i prefer to have horsepower with no tricks. i was thinking of changing the 1.6 rocker arms to 1.7. i'm not sure how much difference that would make, and how it would work with a stock, or b, cam.

[lx mike]

Originally posted by jim_howard_pdx
Use the "B" Roller cam, Trick Flow Heads and Upper Manifold with 90 MM. Get a super chip. Use the 3.73 gears, you should be close to 13.5-14.0 ETs at 90+ MPH. Add a 170 hp squirt of NOS and you will be 450+ HP and running late 12's on street slicks.

A heads cam and intake car should be able to run about 12.5- 13.0 at about 105 mph. don't bother with a chip. you can do the same thing they basicly do by bumbing your timing.

[Agent_4573]

Make sure you check the specs on your cam to see if you can run 1.7 rr's. Getting 1.7's is almost the same thing as getting a bigger cam. It holds the valves open longer and farther. If you run a larger cam with larger ratio rocker arms, you may push the valves to far and slam them into your pistons.

[jim_howard_pdx]

I go to the races alot, plus I run hard on the street. Heads, cam and intake on a 302 will not get you 12.20's, unless you are using a very high lift cam. If you are, then you need FORGED pistons and prepared RODS with excellent quality ROD BOLTS. I prefer ARP for Rod Bolts and Main Bearings.

Trick Flow heads, out of the box, will outflow any ported Windsor iron head PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.

If you are racing, the Trick Flow R head will outflow all but the 205 AFR head. And even then the numbers are more close than they are apart. PORT the Trick Flow R head, and you are pushing 1.6HP per cubic inch ON GAS.

Your pro-stock friend probably does not have a big budget, or alot of porting time. I don't mean to DIS him but really WATER JACKETS......come on. The water jackets on the Trick Flows is what makes them so excellent. They eliminate hot spots that WARP the other brands.

OHHHHH I just love those that slam a good product for NO GOOD REASON other than they hit a water jacket while porting. BIG deal. A race shop throws away at least 2 or 3 heads a year going for maximum flow.

If you plan on running consistent 12 second times, you had better have great rods and forged pistons, performance rings and excellent bolts or studs. A balanced engine would be recommended to keep the bearings happy. At that point, you are looking at a good 2,000 dollars on the bottom end.

There is nothing wrong with 1.7 rollers. Whenever I build, I always check piston to valve clearance for both size rockers. I use 1.6 on the street, and 1.7 at the track. It only takes me about 45-60 minutes to change them out.

I BLEED FORD OVAL BLUE

Now go out and start with good brakes, cross drilled rotors, kevlar brake pads and braided brake lines. Add your 3.73 gears. And now have some fun. When you have the urge to go FAST, start with a blueprinted lower end and you will always be glad you did.

[Coupe50h]

Originally posted by jim_howard_pdx
Use the "B" Roller cam, Trick Flow Heads and Upper Manifold with 90 MM. Get a super chip. Use the 3.73 gears, you should be close to 13.5-14.0 ETs at 90+ MPH. Add a 170 hp squirt of NOS and you will be 450+ HP and running late 12's on street slicks.

Not bad at all.....

Only use the NOS on the track, not on the street. You will need to go forged pistons soon. Have the crank offset ground to get 331 CI and use the LONGEST Rod you can fit in the block. Upgrade to the X cam when you go forged pistons. This will put you over 500 HP on the NOS. Oh such fun.....

lol , you sound like an expert, "13.5's at 90mph" i run 13.5 at 99mph on a stock motor with little mods, im probaly 240 hp.
"450 hp running late 12's" ????? wtf! 450 will move even an sn95 stang into the 11's, where do you get your info man?

170 hp? never heard of it.

[byrnech]

I am having good luck with my combo so far. It is just put together, there really hasn't been any tuning done to it like a custom chip or anything. As far as drivability it is really smooth and has good street manners. I know a couple of people with superchargers that have had all kinds of tuning problems. Supercharging a car is not as easy as you make it sound. But I think my car is running well, that is only the 4th time I have taken it to the track and every time it just keeps getting quicker. All and all building a fast natually aspirated car is not all that hard, just do your homework and pick a well balanced combo. -Chris

[jim_howard_pdx]

Byronech seems to have a good combo. I love those 331 strokers. I went with a 351 W because I love LONG RODS and that 5.95 rod really keeps the piston at TDC a good LONG time.

Someday I will put in a street fighter 427 stroker bottom end. With a solid roller cam of 275 duration 5.60 lift, it should make 525 HP and put me in the late 10's.

And LX guy, remember MY CAR is set up for cornering. If all I wanted to do was quarter, I would put my 9 second Fairlane with a monster 428 back on the track. 9.2 quarter miles at 134 MPH. And the heads would still qualify for super stock class racing, since I am using the original rockers on hardened moly shafts.
13 to 1 compression, LeMans Rods and it revs to 8,000 RPM without ANY issues.

So when you small block guys want to party, just remember with Nitrous, I am sitting at 8.56 ET's.

See you at the finish line.

Common LX guy...... Smile and enjoy life
And anyone that thinks the Police Interceptor 302 was basically stock has got some real issues. It had stronger rods, was factory balanced, has forged or hypereutectic pistons, high performance rings, and a hot cam. I know because I used to buy these. They were the first interceptor engine in the 80's and 90's to sustain 150 MPH on the highway. The Hemi 426 used to run 150's too, but at about 9 miles per gallon.

Now the Chevy police cruisers use the 370 HP Corvette engine which does 157-162. Pretty wicked rides.

[Coupe50h]

jim glad to hear that and all, but you are just shooting off numbers of stuff we really arent conversating about, also what interceptor cars are we talking about? my motor isnt balanced, has a stock h.o cam, what cam did you think the police car's came with?
mine isnt lopey or nothing, sounds stock, and yes it's the original engine, besides cooling and charging upgrades, trunk pop button and reinforced floorpans, the engine is a stock h.o in the sso cars. there is a site somewhere dont remember the link, that will verify my info.

87-92 5.0's came with forged pistons, you need to do some research before you go making long post sounding like you know everything, sorry to come down on you, but i had to,

btw, my car does seem a little faster than non police cars with the same basic mods, however i dont believe i actually have more hp with an oil cooler and 160 mph speedo.

[lx mike]

Jim:
go look at skymans combo he has heads, e-cam and holley intake and with 3.73 gears he in low 12's at almost 110 mph. he has stock bottom end

this post started off by someone asking about a good streetable combo and your talking about a nhra class 428 and your car which is 351 and both have nothing to do with the original post

[LX XLR8R]

Originally posted by jim_howard_pdx


And LX guy, remember MY CAR is set up for cornering. If all I wanted to do was quarter, I would put my 9 second Fairlane with a monster 428 back on the track. 9.2 quarter miles at 134 MPH. And the heads would still qualify for super stock class racing, since I am using the original rockers on hardened moly shafts.
13 to 1 compression, LeMans Rods and it revs to 8,000 RPM without ANY issues.

9.2@134 doesnt make sence unless you are down to 2500lbs with you in it..and a fairlaine dont weight that light

[jim_howard_pdx]

We ran 9.2-9.29 all season long for 3 seasons.

We had a 427 sideoiler with Medium Riser Heads,
A SOHC Cammer engine
and finally a tunnel port 428.

All ran the same index and the same times.

67 FX Fairlane with C6 tranny 5,500 RPM stall. One run after the next after the next after the next. Clock Work. This car is consistent.

(By the way the Cammer was real fun, but it was a loaner engine and went into a show car. The 427 side oiler went into an AC Cobra kit car after being detuned. )

The 428 had the largest physical camshaft that would fit without the rods interfering.

The cam was 326 duration 268 @ .50 inch and 640 lift on the intake and exhaust. The overlap was 110 degrees. When the car idled, the intakes and exhaust were open almost a half cycle. You could smell the RAW gas and the flames out the exhaust at night were quite impressive.

When we had the car at 7,000 RPM and up, the engine ran like a rotary. We had it balanced to 0.1 grams. The only failure is that we punched holes through two cylinder bores and ended up sleeving those two cylinders. The water never seized the engine because of the overlap! (Lucky me).

We lost just two races. One to a Hemi, and the other to a 500 cubic inch Chevy stroker. Both won by less than a door length. Both went through the trap at over 150 MPH. We finished all but two races we ran. One was the blown cylinder walls, and one was a transmission failure when the C6 case cracked and leaked tranny fluid all over the track. Every other race we won. CONSISTENCY PAYS DIVIDENDS.

Then engine dyno'd at 602 HP at the flywheel with two 750 Holley carbs on a tunnel ram intake, and 574 HP at the flywheel with a single 1050 Dominator on a single plane intake with 4" riser plate.

[jonnyk]

Originally posted by jim_howard_pdx

The 428 had the largest physical camshaft that would fit without the rods interfering.

Wouldn't the pistons interfere first?

Originally posted by jim_howard_pdx
The cam was 326 duration 268 @ .50 inch and 640 lift on the intake and exhaust. The overlap was 110 degrees. When the car idled, the intakes and exhaust were open almost a half cycle.

268 degrees is more than 180 degrees. They are already open more than half a cycle. So is a stock 5.0HO cam.

Originally posted by jim_howard_pdx
You could smell the RAW gas and the flames out the exhaust at night were quite impressive.

Cams don't make a car run rich. Sounds like you need to rejet the carb and maybe lower the floats a bit? Explosions out my tailpipes are a personal safety concern, especially when it's from unburnt gasoline, let alone the safety of my exhaust system.

Originally posted by jim_howard_pdx
When we had the car at 7,000 RPM and up, the engine ran like a rotary.

You mean there weren't any pistons in it? Try again.

Originally posted by jim_howard_pdx
The only failure is that we punched holes through two cylinder bores and ended up sleeving those two cylinders. The water never seized the engine because of the overlap! (Lucky me).

You're lucky the chunks from the cylinder walls didn't wind up being dumped under the piston into the oil pan causing the pump to seize, and the oil pressure to go bye bye at one of your "8000 rpm" bigblock passes.

Originally posted by jim_howard_pdx
We lost just two races. One to a Hemi, and the other to a 500 cubic inch Chevy stroker. Both won by less than a door length. Both went through the trap at over 150 MPH. We finished all but two races we ran. One was the blown cylinder walls, and one was a transmission failure when the C6 case cracked and leaked tranny fluid all over the track. Every other race we won. CONSISTENCY PAYS DIVIDENDS.

Whoop-tee-doo. Bracket racing in rural Kentucky. Sounds like a riot to me, ya'll! Join a heads up class sometime.

I don't see how any of this pertains to the thread at hand.

For my contribution to the thread, a supercharger will be a true bolton, and will be the easiest way to make a lot of power and maintain gas mileage, driveability, and torque (compared to all motor). Boltons from thereon will pay bigger dividends. However, mileage of the engine becomes a factor, as does tuning, along with a lot of other things. My opinion is to build the motor first - torque down low won't be as bad as you think with a cam, and you will have topend power that screams, as well a reliable performer. I vote for a heads/cam/intake package with appropriate boltons (TFS or AFR 165 heads, Edelbrock Performer or TFS Street intake, TFS #1 cam or something simliar). Stang Runner's combo is a testament to that fact.

[87lx58]

This post is for someone looking to make good power on motor and have smooth driveability. You go on about your 5.95 rods and you don't have a clue what you are talking about. 302 engines have the same 1.7 rod ratio as a 351 because of the shorter stroke crank. Do your math! By the way i run 11.70s with a 302 on stock bottom end shifting at 6700 rpm on motor. Remember, shops are in business to make money. Insurance by way of using better parts is great. Don't tell someone it can not be done. My motor is only at 6700 rpm for a few seconds out of an 11 second run. I have never seen or broke a factory 302 rod before the block gives!

[Coupe50h]

Well the track is my second home, and i seen a 306 with spray throw a rod, you are right though, block usually gives out first, especially on boost.

forged internals are always good no matter what the combo.