Odd... - Page 2

PKRWUD · 05-24-2002, 12:55 PM

Joe, you know there's no guarantee, but that EGR looks about as bad as they get. I'd replace it. If anything is preventing it from closing, it's like a constant vacuum leak, except it doesn't go away at higher rpms. You may be the proud owner of a multiple problem car, so let's fix what we know is bad, like that EGR.

Did you separate your #5 & #6 wires?

Take care,
-Chris

joe4speed · 05-24-2002, 01:10 PM

well i cleaned it, and seperated the wires, but it's still pretty shitty, seems a little worse when i seperated the wires, actually!

How much vaccuum should I be getting at the EGR line? It seems like hardly anything.
I haven't looked at the plugs yet, I have to go to work soon.

I suppose I'll get another EGR valve this weekend.

it's just so weird, it's been running perfectly until that day! Weird...

*raises hand* "Hi, I'm Joe, I own a multiple problem Mustang!" *clapping*

PKRWUD · 05-24-2002, 01:38 PM

Joe, you've done a great job with video clips and pictures, but without actually being there, I'm half blind too. Could be a problem with your 10 pin, but I can't glance at that. Know what I mean?

Okay, here's the "by the book" way to check your egr:

1) Disconnect Idle Air Bypass valve
2) Disconnect and plug hose at EGR
3) Connect a hand vacuum pump to the EGR
4) Start engine.
5) Apply 5-10" to vacuum hose

If engine becomes unstable or engine stalls, EGR valve is functioning properly.

6) Reconnect idle air bypass connector.
7) Connect vacuum pump toEGR vacuum supply hose
8) Ensure engine is at normal operating temp.
9) Start engine and increase idle speed to 1500-2000 rpms.

Vacuum gauge on pump should read 5". If it doesn't, you have a problem. If it does, the EGR system is fine.

Take care,
-Chris

gtsr515 · 05-24-2002, 03:31 PM

I guess EVP, TPS, .................or is your MAP sensor toast or the vacuum line disconnected, sometimes when you quick rap the motor that short vacuum line(s) from under the intake can come undone or worse yet crack, allowing a vacuum leak that you can't see or find. i also was thinking TFI, but those usually always fail to the point the car won't start, let alone run WOT.

How about engine grounds? Also, do you have a chip that may have failed and screwed up timing big time?

02's okay?

FPR vacuum lines good?

Pump could be shot, only good for lower rpm use, when you get into it on the road there is a load on the car, unlike just flat revving it under the hood, this could make a bad pump look good, know what i mean?

joe4speed · 05-24-2002, 11:41 PM

lol ohhhh man... this could be a long haul, huh??
One thing I've learned about my particular Mustang, is that it's never the easy way out!!!!

Don't ya hate the problems where you have to replace everything to figure it out!?!? I've done this a couple times on this car!!!

Well, I'm at my g/f's house, she's out like a light, so I probably won't get to this tomorrow, I'm off mon and tue and figure I'll be all over it.. but unfortunately, funds are limited, so buying every other part is gonna take a bit!! I think we've all been there!!

I really appreciate all your help guys! I'd be breaking out the hammer by now!

I'm soooo glad I have other means of transportation, even if it's a GM or rice burner!

srv1 · 05-25-2002, 12:26 AM

Joe. do the basics first. you got fuel pressure right? what is your gauge reading? you never stated what the fuel pressure is. it sounds like a fuel pump. do a pressure reading. is it to spec? let mr know.

oh and more info for you. whenever you work on ANY Ford, remember KOEO codes FIRST!!!! ignore KOER codes! you MUST fix the KOEO codes first! ignore the code 67. did you have it in gear when you did the KOEO self test? ignore the EVR code as well. Fords are known for bad EGR sensors. only ignore these for your case.

now i dont believe it is the EGR at all. why? cause it did it all of the sudden. sounds like a plugged exhaust, right? not likely with a h-pipe. spark? could be. check to make sure the timing change hasnt jumped since i assume it has 160k on it!. i have seen many Ford distributors go bad in my day. the top part of the dis. (shutter) comes loose off the shaft and moves, therefor screws up the timing. i have enclosed a pic. try to turn it(gently) it should move a little bit both ways, but shouldnt move more than 1/4". something like that. usually a TFI module causes a no start or a stall. check your distributor cap for carbon tracking.

i say check the fuel pressure. if is correct change the fuel filter. if not that, check your dis. cap. if that is not it, check the distributor like i shown. good luck!

p.s. a plugged egr with an h-pipe wouldnt cause the vehicle not to rev past 2500 rpm. poor idle, bad fuel econmy, hesitation would happen, but the car would still rev past 2500 rpms

joe4speed · 05-25-2002, 07:56 AM

well the fuel pressure never goes below 38psi and a lttle over 40 psi at wot, even when it's stumbling bad. So I don't think it's starving for fuel, even though it sounds like it, but it still smells rich when it happens, but A/F doesn't go higher than normal WOT reading, and no black smoke out the exhaust, or very, very little.

I will check the dist. for play later today, I know there is some carbon buildup, but not that bad really, and the first thing I thought of was the timing chain. It was changed (I believe) at 87,000 miles, but it's probably due again. GRRRRRR!! Is there any way to check that without disassembly? But it idles fine, and revs fine unless you give it more than 25% throttle!! weird, I could drive it all day and it would be fine, if I babied it.

I will still get an EGR because it definitely needs it, might as well replace the bad stuff while I'm at it!

srv1 · 05-25-2002, 09:19 AM

Joe. by any chance does this car have Cali. emissions? Check the Mass air Flow sensor if it does.
yes their is a way to check timing chain wear without disassembly. what you do is put the timing marking on TDC (0). with the distributor cap off, move the crank pulley by hand SLOWLY and watch the distributor rotor and see how much it moves. what i mean is if you move the crank pulley 7 degrees and the distributor rotor hasnt moved yet, then you have some wear. shouldnt be more than 5 MAX! next thing to do to see if you have a jumped chain is do a compression check. or put it on TDC #1 and see where the distributor rotor is pointing. i should be pointing smack dab on #1 on the distributor cap. oh make sure the KEY IS OFF when you do these tests just to remind you! couple of times i forgot! DOH!

As for the EGR, i hear ya. it needs replacement.

srv1 · 05-25-2002, 09:23 AM

Joe i totally forgot to mention something. Ford has problems with there stock fuel pressure regulators. sometimes the they stick or the diaphram inside gets a pinhole and the engine sucks gas through the vacuum line for the fuel pressure regulator. pull off the hose and see if gas spits out. i had many Ford cars do this same thing as your car did with this problem. if this part was bad, you would have a VERY rich running symptom. do you?

joe4speed · 05-25-2002, 12:25 PM

The car has MAF because I did a conversion a couple years ago.... and the FPR is a paxton aftermarket one and there is no gas coming out...!

I will have to check out the timing situation! Thanks for all the input, you guys definitely rock!

joe4speed · 05-26-2002, 12:47 PM

Here are the plugs... a little white, but for the miles that are on them, they look good.
I have to wait for my days off (Mon and Tue) to dig in...

srv1 · 05-26-2002, 05:00 PM

since you have mass air, did you check you mass air sensor? the plugs look like normal wear to me.

vande97 · 05-26-2002, 10:47 PM

Just a shot in the dark, but maybe a bad fuel injector? Just remember a friend that had sort of the same problem and it turned out that he was having issues with a injector. But then again you said it got better when you reset the computer....hmmmm I wish i could help more!!!

good luck tho

vande

Unit 5302 · 05-27-2002, 12:31 AM

I would have to agree with vande97, except for the fact it runs good when cold. If it was a fuel injector problem, it would run worse when cold.

It does sound a lot like my friend's bad injector experience, but also a lot like a BAP sensor problem too. Problem is, it's active in open loop.

I'll keep my head working on this one, also, a fuel pump would have a tendancy to show up after running for a while, and on a rev you'll never get the fuel useage as you will under power. It could still be a fuel pump even showing good pressure. If they are getting weak, the problem will show up after running for a while usually.

joe4speed · 05-27-2002, 12:37 AM

hmmmmm... so many options!!!!

Where to start...
Well the fuel pump is a 190lph FMS unit, about 3 years old, the injectors are also FMS 19 lb the same age, and the Mass air is about 2 years old. The BAP has never been replaced... but you know, after I said that it was running good cold, it decided that it wasn't gonna have any part of that, so it runs the same all the time, just runs worse, it seems, when it's warmed up.
How can I tell if it's a fuel injector?
or the pump?
or the mass air!!!??? LOL

Oldschoolpony · 05-27-2002, 02:06 AM

You should of gone to office depot. not staples.

Tough problem, My efi 460 in my truck did almost the same thing, ended up being the cat. converters broke apart and clogged the exhausts. Gave the egr code too. But,Sounds like a fuel delivery problem. when was the last time you changed your filter? Also, are you checking the pressure while you driving it(putting a load on the motor. I think if it was timing, it would spit and pop, and do it when reving the motor too.

I just watched that video, I'd swear it looks like your tps is bad. You said in an earlier reply, that when you disconnected the tps it made no difference, If the TPS was bad, it wouldnt make a difference if you disconnected it, because it was bad.

65efi · 05-27-2002, 06:38 PM

This sounds a lot like the problems I'm having (see post "Complete loss of power.."). Only difference is that you have a trouble code for the EGR. It sure sounds like the EGR valve could be sticking open. The EVP is easy to test with a VOM, and you can test the EGR with a vac pump.

I can relate to your frustration. If you find out what's causing it, please post it.

65efi · 05-27-2002, 06:52 PM

Just to help rule out an injector problem, you may want to do the cylinder balance test (easy to do and doesn't cost anything).

Oldschoolpony · 05-28-2002, 09:48 PM

Find out yet?

joe4speed · 05-28-2002, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oldschoolpony
Find out yet?

LOL thanks for askin.. I had a really busy weekend (my weekends are mon and tue) so I haven't got to it yet!!! LOL

This week i will be getting to it, though!

Thanks alot for your concern!

05-24-2002, 12:55 PM	#21
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Joe, you know there's no guarantee, but that EGR looks about as bad as they get. I'd replace it. If anything is preventing it from closing, it's like a constant vacuum leak, except it doesn't go away at higher rpms. You may be the proud owner of a multiple problem car, so let's fix what we know is bad, like that EGR. Did you separate your #5 & #6 wires? Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

05-24-2002, 01:10 PM	#22
joe4speed He said Member...heh, heh Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Jupiter, Florida U.S.A. Posts: 3,718	well i cleaned it, and seperated the wires, but it's still pretty shitty, seems a little worse when i seperated the wires, actually! How much vaccuum should I be getting at the EGR line? It seems like hardly anything. I haven't looked at the plugs yet, I have to go to work soon. I suppose I'll get another EGR valve this weekend. it's just so weird, it's been running perfectly until that day! Weird... raises hand "Hi, I'm Joe, I own a multiple problem Mustang!" clapping __________________ *Joe!* 1988 GT, 13.58@101mph Check out my listing! Click here! Or my website:www.joe4speed.com

05-24-2002, 01:38 PM	#23
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Joe, you've done a great job with video clips and pictures, but without actually being there, I'm half blind too. Could be a problem with your 10 pin, but I can't glance at that. Know what I mean? Okay, here's the "by the book" way to check your egr: 1) Disconnect Idle Air Bypass valve 2) Disconnect and plug hose at EGR 3) Connect a hand vacuum pump to the EGR 4) Start engine. 5) Apply 5-10" to vacuum hose If engine becomes unstable or engine stalls, EGR valve is functioning properly. 6) Reconnect idle air bypass connector. 7) Connect vacuum pump toEGR vacuum supply hose 8) Ensure engine is at normal operating temp. 9) Start engine and increase idle speed to 1500-2000 rpms. Vacuum gauge on pump should read 5". If it doesn't, you have a problem. If it does, the EGR system is fine. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

05-24-2002, 03:31 PM	#24
gtsr515 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Sunny, Hot, Sebring, Florida Posts: 725	I guess EVP, TPS, .................or is your MAP sensor toast or the vacuum line disconnected, sometimes when you quick rap the motor that short vacuum line(s) from under the intake can come undone or worse yet crack, allowing a vacuum leak that you can't see or find. i also was thinking TFI, but those usually always fail to the point the car won't start, let alone run WOT. How about engine grounds? Also, do you have a chip that may have failed and screwed up timing big time? 02's okay? FPR vacuum lines good? Pump could be shot, only good for lower rpm use, when you get into it on the road there is a load on the car, unlike just flat revving it under the hood, this could make a bad pump look good, know what i mean? __________________ Remember...2nd place is 1st place for losers!

05-24-2002, 11:41 PM	#25
joe4speed He said Member...heh, heh Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Jupiter, Florida U.S.A. Posts: 3,718	lol ohhhh man... this could be a long haul, huh?? One thing I've learned about my particular Mustang, is that it's never the easy way out!!!! Don't ya hate the problems where you have to replace everything to figure it out!?!? I've done this a couple times on this car!!! Well, I'm at my g/f's house, she's out like a light, so I probably won't get to this tomorrow, I'm off mon and tue and figure I'll be all over it.. but unfortunately, funds are limited, so buying every other part is gonna take a bit!! I think we've all been there!! I really appreciate all your help guys! I'd be breaking out the hammer by now! I'm soooo glad I have other means of transportation, even if it's a GM or rice burner! __________________ *Joe!* 1988 GT, 13.58@101mph Check out my listing! Click here! Or my website:www.joe4speed.com

05-25-2002, 07:56 AM	#27
joe4speed He said Member...heh, heh Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Jupiter, Florida U.S.A. Posts: 3,718	well the fuel pressure never goes below 38psi and a lttle over 40 psi at wot, even when it's stumbling bad. So I don't think it's starving for fuel, even though it sounds like it, but it still smells rich when it happens, but A/F doesn't go higher than normal WOT reading, and no black smoke out the exhaust, or very, very little. I will check the dist. for play later today, I know there is some carbon buildup, but not that bad really, and the first thing I thought of was the timing chain. It was changed (I believe) at 87,000 miles, but it's probably due again. GRRRRRR!! Is there any way to check that without disassembly? But it idles fine, and revs fine unless you give it more than 25% throttle!! weird, I could drive it all day and it would be fine, if I babied it. I will still get an EGR because it definitely needs it, might as well replace the bad stuff while I'm at it! __________________ *Joe!* 1988 GT, 13.58@101mph Check out my listing! Click here! Or my website:www.joe4speed.com

05-25-2002, 09:19 AM	#28
srv1 Get down..... Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Room 103 Posts: 2,095	Joe. by any chance does this car have Cali. emissions? Check the Mass air Flow sensor if it does. yes their is a way to check timing chain wear without disassembly. what you do is put the timing marking on TDC (0). with the distributor cap off, move the crank pulley by hand SLOWLY and watch the distributor rotor and see how much it moves. what i mean is if you move the crank pulley 7 degrees and the distributor rotor hasnt moved yet, then you have some wear. shouldnt be more than 5 MAX! next thing to do to see if you have a jumped chain is do a compression check. or put it on TDC #1 and see where the distributor rotor is pointing. i should be pointing smack dab on #1 on the distributor cap. oh make sure the KEY IS OFF when you do these tests just to remind you! couple of times i forgot! DOH! As for the EGR, i hear ya. it needs replacement. __________________ Cobra brakes are on! Finally..... ------------------------------------------------

05-25-2002, 09:23 AM	#29
srv1 Get down..... Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Room 103 Posts: 2,095	Joe i totally forgot to mention something. Ford has problems with there stock fuel pressure regulators. sometimes the they stick or the diaphram inside gets a pinhole and the engine sucks gas through the vacuum line for the fuel pressure regulator. pull off the hose and see if gas spits out. i had many Ford cars do this same thing as your car did with this problem. if this part was bad, you would have a VERY rich running symptom. do you? __________________ Cobra brakes are on! Finally..... ------------------------------------------------

05-25-2002, 12:25 PM	#30
joe4speed He said Member...heh, heh Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Jupiter, Florida U.S.A. Posts: 3,718	The car has MAF because I did a conversion a couple years ago.... and the FPR is a paxton aftermarket one and there is no gas coming out...! I will have to check out the timing situation! Thanks for all the input, you guys definitely rock! __________________ *Joe!* 1988 GT, 13.58@101mph Check out my listing! Click here! Or my website:www.joe4speed.com

05-26-2002, 05:00 PM	#32
srv1 Get down..... Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Room 103 Posts: 2,095	since you have mass air, did you check you mass air sensor? the plugs look like normal wear to me. __________________ Cobra brakes are on! Finally..... ------------------------------------------------

05-26-2002, 10:47 PM	#33
vande97 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: okemos Posts: 205	Just a shot in the dark, but maybe a bad fuel injector? Just remember a friend that had sort of the same problem and it turned out that he was having issues with a injector. But then again you said it got better when you reset the computer....hmmmm I wish i could help more!!! good luck tho vande

05-27-2002, 12:31 AM	#34
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	I would have to agree with vande97, except for the fact it runs good when cold. If it was a fuel injector problem, it would run worse when cold. It does sound a lot like my friend's bad injector experience, but also a lot like a BAP sensor problem too. Problem is, it's active in open loop. I'll keep my head working on this one, also, a fuel pump would have a tendancy to show up after running for a while, and on a rev you'll never get the fuel useage as you will under power. It could still be a fuel pump even showing good pressure. If they are getting weak, the problem will show up after running for a while usually.

05-27-2002, 12:37 AM	#35
joe4speed He said Member...heh, heh Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Jupiter, Florida U.S.A. Posts: 3,718	hmmmmm... so many options!!!! Where to start... Well the fuel pump is a 190lph FMS unit, about 3 years old, the injectors are also FMS 19 lb the same age, and the Mass air is about 2 years old. The BAP has never been replaced... but you know, after I said that it was running good cold, it decided that it wasn't gonna have any part of that, so it runs the same all the time, just runs worse, it seems, when it's warmed up. How can I tell if it's a fuel injector? or the pump? or the mass air!!!??? LOL __________________ *Joe!* 1988 GT, 13.58@101mph Check out my listing! Click here! Or my website:www.joe4speed.com

05-27-2002, 02:06 AM	#36
Oldschoolpony Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Gainsville,Fl Posts: 229	You should of gone to office depot. not staples. Tough problem, My efi 460 in my truck did almost the same thing, ended up being the cat. converters broke apart and clogged the exhausts. Gave the egr code too. But,Sounds like a fuel delivery problem. when was the last time you changed your filter? Also, are you checking the pressure while you driving it(putting a load on the motor. I think if it was timing, it would spit and pop, and do it when reving the motor too. I just watched that video, I'd swear it looks like your tps is bad. You said in an earlier reply, that when you disconnected the tps it made no difference, If the TPS was bad, it wouldnt make a difference if you disconnected it, because it was bad. __________________ http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/...splay.cgi?1546 Last edited by Oldschoolpony; 05-27-2002 at 02:31 AM..

05-27-2002, 06:38 PM	#37
65efi Registered Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 37	This sounds a lot like the problems I'm having (see post "Complete loss of power.."). Only difference is that you have a trouble code for the EGR. It sure sounds like the EGR valve could be sticking open. The EVP is easy to test with a VOM, and you can test the EGR with a vac pump. I can relate to your frustration. If you find out what's causing it, please post it.

05-27-2002, 06:52 PM	#38
65efi Registered Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 37	Just to help rule out an injector problem, you may want to do the cylinder balance test (easy to do and doesn't cost anything).

05-28-2002, 09:48 PM	#39
Oldschoolpony Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Gainsville,Fl Posts: 229	well Find out yet? __________________ http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/...splay.cgi?1546