E-cam vs B-cam?

[Unit 5302]

Wanna road race? My 02GT, vs your monstrosity. Hell, I'll even pull the 87 out of the garage and run you on a road course. Jeez... don't you feel stupid cause your $100,000 race car will get smoked by a $3400, 161k 1987 Mustang GT on a road course.

I guess I get my kicks by knowing stuff, and not paying somebody to know stuff for me. I was voted MW biggest pita because it's nearly impossible to beat me in a debate. I come armed with facts. Not a bunch of my cars faster so I know more BS.

Speaking of debate, where's yours? All I see is a load about how if I knew anything I would have a really fast car... yawn. Some things are more important to me in life than having a drag car.

[Eric4Nitrous]

I've always been taught less is more. Maybe you should try that. Besides your not going fast enough if you can turn. So what's more important in life than having a dragcar? running your mouth about something you have absolutely no knowledge of?

[tireburner163]

I'm siding with Kell on this one.

The E-cam will pull past 4500, it's ludicruis to say a E-cam won't pull past 4500rpm when a stocker will.

88workcar, Dan, Nicole, Skyler, ExGmGuy....all people running fast with E-cams

[Eric4Nitrous]

That's ok. I have NO KNOWLEDGE whatsoever of a motor. Forgive me for thinking that i do. Unit you know more than anybody i've ever seen in my whole life. You've been around fast motors all your life. Forgive me for underestimating you it's been fun guys.

[tireburner163]

Hey Eric.....how about presenting your argument and backing it up with facts instead of just calling names.

[Unit 5302]

Originally posted by Eric4Nitrous
I've always been taught less is more. Maybe you should try that. Besides your not going fast enough if you can turn. So what's more important in life than having a dragcar? running your mouth about something you have absolutely no knowledge of?

This is an exercise in futility. You know, those rocket scientists don't know jack about rockets. I mean, come on. If they did, they'd have their own rocket in the back yard. Maybe you'd like to talk about fuel? I get 19-21/27-29 mpg with my 1987GT. I bet your drag car gets pretty lousy gas mileage. Therefore, you know nothing about fuel.

Your less is more statement certainly holds true here though. Less facts from you is more proof you haven't the slightest about what you're talking about. If you can't debate, just say it... then again, actions clearly speak louder than words.

My knowledge is not lacking, which is how I was just able to explain some complex camshaft theory to you above. Please, enlighten me on how cams work, and why the E303 won't pull above 4500 O Great Camshaft Wizard, who only has a fast car cause he paid somebody to make it fast.

Other things more important than dragcar.

My daily driver.
My computer.
My job.
My ability to take vacations.
My free time.
My motorcycle.
My snowmobile (before I sold it, which should give you a clue about where the drag car sits on my priority list).

[fiveohpatrol]

I wish I were a moderator, because then I'd move this thread right now. Not to another forum, but to a completely different message board. This kind of crap belongs on the corral, because all they do over there is argue.

Please close this thread as it has just turned into a childish fight.

[Topless In Texas]

I agree! Close the damn thread....ya'll can argue all year long about this ****.
You know...everyone is into thier own 'thing'. Everyone is more knowledeable about what THEY have....
You either go slow, you go fast, or you haul fkn *****....
it dont matter how you got there, just that your satisfied w/ what ya got and you understand it and can maintain it..
Everyone is into thier own 'thing' and everyone should respect the others knowledge about what they are FAMILIAR with.
so...I might be out of line but this is a worthless argument. And everyone has knowledge about what they are saying to an extent... but theres no reason to be downright rude to your fellow MW'ers....
wether you run a drag car or a road race car..how can you compare the 2? Granted, Im not NEARLY AS KNOWLEDGEABLE as all ya'll but this argument is not even worth arguing about.
and, unless you wanna see some serious flaming continue, lets just put this one to rest!
Everyone stated thier opinion. Noted. Let a sleeping dog lie...

[Crazy Horse GT]

i agree, fight nice kid's, geez, whatever, i got an xyz cam, anyone?, uuppss forgot i got 2 cam's, as the weather gets colder, my pos run's faster, drive thru please. CHILL OUT!.

[Mach 1]

Unit - Can you expalin why the e-cam is notorious for surging problems in EFI mustangs? Why so MANY more people have experienced surging with this cam compared to other cams? Im convinced it is the narrow LSA, and narrow LSA's arent the best for blower applications. Are you debateing this point? Thats the point I said.

Its not that difficult to make 500 HP with a blower on a modded mustang, so using those benchmarks as somekind of proof for the e-cam is ridiculous. Swap the e-cam out and see what kind of power those combinations make with a better blower grind.

And the e-cam sucks for automatics, again because of its narrow LSA, which gives it no bottom end.

I remind you I speak from experience with the e cam and not what I read from the Ford Motorsport catalog, as sometimes I think you are doing.

I dont deny that you have studied cams and have some good knowledge, you spent more time figuring them out than me, but I am making valid points..Im not just throwing garbage out there.

And I have spent more than a couple weekends swapping cams just to alter my cars idle and powerband characterisitcs. Have you?

[eatsgmcar]

I am really not a specialist, but i heard that the lobe
might be the problem...

An LSA 110 like the E303 may produce bad and surging idle
and a B303 with LSA 112 is better around 900 RPM.

I don t know how and why but that s what a more experienced
drag racer told me. I dont know if it s right... but it might be a
clue.

regards,

[tireburner163]

Originally posted by Topless In Texas
I agree! Close the damn thread....ya'll can argue all year long about this ****.
You know...everyone is into thier own 'thing'. Everyone is more knowledeable about what THEY have....
You either go slow, you go fast, or you haul fkn *****....
it dont matter how you got there, just that your satisfied w/ what ya got and you understand it and can maintain it..
Everyone is into thier own 'thing' and everyone should respect the others knowledge about what they are FAMILIAR with.
so...I might be out of line but this is a worthless argument. And everyone has knowledge about what they are saying to an extent... but theres no reason to be downright rude to your fellow MW'ers....
wether you run a drag car or a road race car..how can you compare the 2? Granted, Im not NEARLY AS KNOWLEDGEABLE as all ya'll but this argument is not even worth arguing about.
and, unless you wanna see some serious flaming continue, lets just put this one to rest!
Everyone stated thier opinion. Noted. Let a sleeping dog lie...

This IS a valid agrument. This is not a argument over you favorite flavor of ice cream, it is worth discussing.

You advice is a little off base, IMO. If I disagree with someone and think they are wrong I should just suck it up and be quite???

[Unit 5302]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaa Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Move the thread, there's a debate....

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I think my posts have been about as nice as they could be, considering the amount of bashing on this thread before I entered, and the direct attacks on me with no facts to back it up afterwards. Maybe you'd all like to keep in mind somebody is going to be spending their HARD EARNED dollars on these modifications? One of the things that gets me angry is the idea people without a clue will come in and start babbling about stuff they don't know, and sway somebody to spend what little money they have in an area that won't help them. I know I've been guilty of knowing less than I thought, particularily in camshafts more than once. After feeling like an idiot, I took the time to research camshafts, and how they work. You know what? I still don't consider myself an expert on them because there is SOOO much to know about them. They are the most complicated part of an engine, hands down. Changes in advertised duration, lift, lobe centerline, lobe seperation angle, duration at .050, ramp rates, and other factors all can heavily influence how a camshaft makes power. I like to use the B303 with 1.7:1's against the F303 as a comparison. Layman's specs. .510"/.510" 226*/226* (guesstimate due to the 1.7s increasing duration at .050, but NOT advertised) LSA 112. F303 .512"/.512" 226*/226* LSA 114. Now, those cams should perform the same, right? What seem to be minor differences make big differences when you add a supercharger.

Mach 1, I agree with the LSA being too narrow for the AOD as a general rule. The LCA is what saves the cam. It doens't have a lot of real low end, that much I will give you. It people want real good low end power, the stock HO cam is actually pretty darn good, not to mention it delivers excellent fuel efficiency. I don't think the LSA is the only culprit on the idle problem, but it's certainly a contributing factor. The E303 isn't real great at making idle vacuum, which is a common problem for a cam with an LSA of 110. I think the problem is compounded by the LCA being uneven. exgmguy found creating a vacuum leak solved his idle woe's, which makes me think the offset LCA may be causing a somewhat inconsistant vacuum reading at idle, which would play with the computer. Again, it's just speculation on my part. The E303's ramp rate is pretty slow, which means the actual overlap doesn't cover a ton of area of the valve lift. That benefits it as far as keeping vacuum, and the advanced intake timing allows cylinder pressure to stay up. An LSA of 110 should probably be associated with a 2500-6500rpm cam or so. The E303's weirdness factors allow it to usually make power at 2000-5500 or so.

Also, I don't think 500rwhp or 600 crank hp with a supercharged 302 is anything to sneeze at. The rest of the combo might have made 350hp for Dan or Nic. Supercharger boost was about 9psi, non-intercooled. So they were picking up 250hp from 9psi. That's a serious gain. Is the E303 the BEST supercharger cam? LOL, heck no, but it does a dang good job considering it's a multi role camshaft.

The XE cams you favor are good at creating vacuum, and their design isn't really lacking, except I don't feel they are very efficient at how they go about making their power. Still, if you're upgrading the valvetrain, and you're willing to maybe lose a little bit of top end compared with other cams, along with probably a little fuel economy from the cam working so hard, the XE line is a way to cheat conventional camshaft technology by keeping good low end and making solid power above the stock cams capability.

[MidNiteBlu 5.0]

I dont think this thread should be locked just because there is an argument going on wtf?

Im siding with unit on this one just because hes presented alot more facts than anyone else has...

[Topless In Texas]

Originally posted by tireburner163
This IS a valid agrument. This is not a argument over you favorite flavor of ice cream, it is worth discussing.

You advice is a little off base, IMO. If I disagree with someone and think they are wrong I should just suck it up and be quite???

Okay so its a valid argument...and no no one needs to suck it up. I just dont see why everyone has to be so frigin pissy to everyone else. EVERYONE is smart here. Theres no need to trash each other. I like everyone here and a few of you are my good friends and it makes me feel bad to see ya'll trashing the hell out of each other. Thats all.
Sorry for my concern! I'll shut up now.
TNT

[tireburner163]

Originally posted by Topless In Texas
Okay so its a valid argument...and no no one needs to suck it up. I just dont see why everyone has to be so frigin pissy to everyone else. EVERYONE is smart here. Theres no need to trash each other. I like everyone here and a few of you are my good friends and it makes me feel bad to see ya'll trashing the hell out of each other. Thats all.
Sorry for my concern! I'll shut up now.
TNT

Everyone is smart.....but some are much smarter than others.

Kell has backed his argument up with facts...........some others haven't. They just called names.

My point is that it's insane to say that a E-cam won't pull past 4500rpms, just ask Skyler and ExGmGuy where they shift at.

[eatsgmcar]

I have the E, I am happy with it,
the surging idle last about 7 seconds each time
when i start the engine and i can live with it.

the motor has never died on the street and...

I AM MORE THAN SURE THAT THE B IS WORTHLESS
FOR A POWER HUNGRY STANG RACER.

If the car die or the idle is always surging, look
somewhere else it is not the camshaft.

There is tons and tons of cam comparison in magazines
and on the net. Find the information and you ll realize
that it would be better to leave the stock stick at its place and get a set of 1.7 RR rather than change for the B.

Save money and your time!

I run the B with 1.72 rockers. Pulls to 6000rpms no problem. Love it.

[Unit 5302]

Originally posted by eatsgmcar
I have the E, I am happy with it,
the surging idle last about 7 seconds each time
when i start the engine and i can live with it.

the motor has never died on the street and...

I AM MORE THAN SURE THAT THE B IS WORTHLESS
FOR A POWER HUNGRY STANG RACER.

If the car die or the idle is always surging, look
somewhere else it is not the camshaft.

There is tons and tons of cam comparison in magazines
and on the net. Find the information and you ll realize
that it would be better to leave the stock stick at its place and get a set of 1.7 RR rather than change for the B.

Save money and your time!

I'm glad you're so sure the B-303 is such a junk stick. The B-303 performs much the same as the E-303 on EFI cars from the midrange up. If you go to a carbed car you'll see the benefits of the B-303 in a big way. 88workcar has also had a B-303 in his car, and as I recall, he picked up just a little by going to the E-303.

I'd also like to know how leaving the stock cam in place, and adding 1.7:1 RR will outperform the B-303.

HO Cam w/1.7s (estmated @.050, and lift)

.472"/.472" 206*/206*@.050 266*/266* LSA 116 LCA 116.

B-303

.480"/.480" 224*/224*@.050 284*/284* LSA 112 LCA 109/119

The B-303 has a serious edge in higher rpm power due to increased duration, and a drop in LSA. It even manages more lift, and your valvetrain geometry stays better with the 1.6:1 rockers.

Your comment about cams not causing surging is incorrect as well. They WILL cause the stock computer problems if they don't generate enough vacuum or are inconsistant in vacuum production. The list of people who've had idle problems with the E-303 is about a mile long. I'd say your odds are about 1 in 3 you'll have problems with the E cam.

I'm not playing sides here people. I'm playing facts.

[302 LX Eric]

Hey guys, I don't mean to interrupt anything, but after Unit's post about vacuum, it got me thinking...

What type of vacuum readings are you guys seeing with your E and B cams? The reason I ask is that I've got a mild Steeda cam and see 11-12 in. hg. at idle and have no idle issues.

Just curious.

Thanks,
E