650HP stock block

[Kevin Price]

I'd tree the piss outta you

The only thing you're able to tree is a raccoon.

[Eric4Nitrous]

You smart mouth little punk haha

[jim_howard_pdx]

I think Arias makes the Trick Flow forged pistons, I do not know who makes their forged cranks. Forged cranks can cause all kinds of engine damage, and they are definitely not all built alike.

I would go with a crank designed for 8 second quarter miles, not a crank that was purchased from a different manufacturer and relabeled Trick Flow. You rarely get the best cranks when they do this type of relabeling.

Don't get me wrong, I like TF and I am using their street twisted wedge heads right now. But I would never use Arias pistons, and I would never use a TF crank.

A windage tray only prevents oil from dripping from the oil returns onto the spinning crank. You get an additional 8-12 hp using one, because of the difficulty the crank has displacing a very heavy fluid (motor oil and oil mist).

Ususally we use a crank scrapper just on the leading edge of the crank throw. The idea is to cut off the excess oil that hangs on the crank surfaces (created by surface tension) and more importantly it prevents the oil from"roping".

When an engine gets past 6,000 RPM the surface tension of the oil on the rotating crank makes the fluid wrap or "rope" around the crankshaft. It literally envelopes the crank and layers like twine wrapped around a spindle. The oil is heavy, thick, and will not compress. The "roping" causes the crank to flex and distort since the metal is now fighting the resistance (inertial energy) created by the roping oil.

Only a crank scrapper will remove this oil. A windage tray cannot. The scrappers cost about 8-14 dollars. I mount it and turn the crank, then clearance the unit to a minimum of 0.08 clearance, but I am after 0.10 clearance ideally. The reason I scrape both sides (probably overkill) is that suspended oil mist does get to the crank so scraping it every 180 degrees keeps the crank "unloaded".

The scrapper is not MORE important than the windage tray, it is JUST AS IMPORTANT. In your case, I think it is MANDATORY. Look, I am not trying to frighten you, but who is giving you advice on your engine???? You are a heart beat away from running 9 seconds and that is a thrill all its own. I just think that you would never bolt up a 10 second engine without using ARP or equivalent rod bolts? Why, because you know stock rod bolts are not up to 400 HP and above. They rarely survive 6,000 RPM revs without stretching, and loosing their grip on the rod bearings.

Well an oil scrapper is MORE IMPORTANT than the ARP bolts at 6,000 + RPM. I am serious about this. Almost every block or reciprocating part failure is due either to the oil battering the crankshaft, or to oil starvation. The rest of the damage is typically done by detonation.

Oil actually damages your crank as it spins. You cannot see it visually, but you sure can see the effects it makes when a crank fails, or a block cracks down the webs as yours has done.

Try the oil scrapper. It may reduce the twist in your crank enough that you will not break another block. ALSO, make sure you are using main studs instead of main bolts. The studs have quite a bit more clamping action since they are not relying upon bolt stretch to produce final torque. I do not know why I forgot to ask you how you were torquing your caps but studs are the only way to go.

I hope all this helps. Everything I have written to you is a result from seeing 10-20 race engines become paper weights. Most of these engines were producing more than 500 hp and most were within 100's of a second of the standing world records of the brackets they competed it. One was a Keith Black Crank for a 426 Hemi that detonated at 5,500 RPM on my buddies offshore racing boat. We were running first in our class and 4th overall when the crank exploaded less than a quarter kilometer from the finish line. That was due to the oil "roping". That is where I first learned about crank scrapping.

Consider some wheelie bars for your ride. I used them on my Fairlane. I suspect you are either over geared, you are launching at too high an rpm, or that your low end torque is too high.

Your clutch may have too much coefficient of drag (too much grab), but the easiest thing to do right now would be to retard your camshaft 4-6 degrees to put your torque curve up higher. Make sure you recheck your piston to valve clearance. Make sure to degree your cam, the grind may be off a few degrees and you might have it straight up but it is running as if you had it advanced. That is why we index every cam in every engine, so we get the thing dialed in so we know what our baseline is for when we start to make changes.

Keep up the good work, 9 second et's will be yours soon. Stay safe and sane! Most of all GOOD LUCK and don't forget the crank scrapper.

By the way, if you decide to try water injection, I used up 1 1/2 quarts running 9.23 ET's on gasoline, and 2 1/2 quarts running 7.6 ETs with dual stage progressive NOS.

[ultraflo]

Thanks Jim, I'm looking into both a crank scraper and a windage tray for my Moroso pan...

I think wheelie bars are a bad idea ...I wouldn't even consider them on a 9 sec car. I have an adjustable McLeod setup that allows me to adjust how hard the clutch engages... that will be one of the 'bugs' to work out of the new combo when it is completed... along with the strut/shock valving, etc.

I have ARP 1/2" head and main studs for the R-block, and had the stock block studded and girdled... I degreed my cam to the specs supplied with the cam card, and it was the first time doing so, and I did it over about 3-4 times to make sure I kept coming up with the same numbers... and did. This was in '99 and haven't degreed a cam since... so I'll have to go through all of that again when I decide on another grind.

Thanks Kevin for the info on the LE lubricants...

And Eric, it'd be nice to line up with you sometime, either ride will do, but I prefer you bring the Nova, of course.

[blue oval 50h]

ultraflo....how big of a "HIT" where you putting through that motor? Hopefully my mex block will handle similar times!!

PS was your block filled?

[jim_howard_pdx]

I bet if you retarded the cam 4 to 6 degrees, you would be into the 9's. The biggest mistake racers make in engine building, is to think the race is won off the launch.

Everyone thinks that and the magazines say you 60 ft times and first 330 ft make or break a race. They may be right, but primarily for dragsters and pro stock cars that are running within tenths of a second from one another.

Our engines were built for top end power production. From 660 ft on is where a race is really won or lost. We used to do tricks, like run our final gear underdriven. So instead of a 1 to 1 final gear, we would run a 1.06 to 1 gear. That way the engine was always pulling against a mechanical advantage.

When you retard the cam, you rarely lose significant torque off the line, because typically you are launching at 4 to 5,000 RPM. But the extra power up top is really significant to getting into the 9's.

Another thing we learned is that short shifting first and second gears to get into third gear faster ended up cutting our times from 9.6 to 9.2. So we were shifting at 5500 RPM in first and second, and 7500 rpm in third. That was with a Jerico 4 speed. We changed to a C6 and then a Powerglide to get even more consistency. Running an automatic with a line lock and trans brake allowed us super repeatable 60 ft times. More importantly, it allowed us to vary rpm launch to correct for track temperature and traction conditions and still run our index. Even with a two speed or three speed slush box, we were still shifting from first to second at 5500 rpms. (we had a 5500 rpm stall converter).

Kevin's Nova friend may have a fast car, but just how many trophies did he pick up. We ran three years and lost just two races when we made the finals. That is alot of trophies, and enough money to almost pay for the car--but not for our time.....

[Eric4Nitrous]

Jim this is Kevin's Nova friend. Don't talk **** about my car man. If you think it's ugly keep your opinions to yourself. You talk alot of smack for somebody with 450+hp and only running 13.7 It may be ugly but it will show you taillights all day long.

[Ron1]

After seeing the new Dart blocks, I wish it had been available when I purchased my R302. A much better block and a LOT cheaper. Comes finished and ready to go. The R302 is a great block as well but the added machining bill makes it real pricey. I think we will see a drastic price drop in the R302's. If not they will be priced out of the market.

To jim_howard_pdx...you keep saying "our engines" and "we"...do you work for a performance house in Portland and if so who? Which car are you running at PIR and Woodburn?

Ron

[ultraflo]

Originally posted by blue oval 50h
ultraflo....how big of a "HIT" where you putting through that motor? Hopefully my mex block will handle similar times!!

PS was your block filled?

I made just over 60 passes this year using the 200hp jets in a Nitrous Express single nozzle race system... without any hard block I have over 100 passes on the motor this year alone, and have been running the same long block since '99 on the street w/ the occasional use of the 150hp jets

I know it's a gamble w/ both the stock block and a Mex block going into the 9's, or low 10's for that matter, and I was told to use hard block when assembling the combo in '98... but figured the car would see mostly street duty and had a goal of 10.50's with a 150hp shot..... so naturally I figured it wouldn't be a necessity at the time. I got bored w/ 10.50's one day and started in the 200hp jets and the rest is history (the block is anyhow, lol).

[Ron1]

One other option on a stock block of course is the Cryo Freeze. I campaigned the same stock block and crank for 3 years at 600+ After a detonation, had to tear it down. There was not a scratch or imperfection in the block, although the head was toast and the piston was gone. It could have been re-used, but it was time to step up, and I went the R302 way. The chassis was certified, got my S/C, S/G license, and it is now running low 9.70's with no signs of any problems on a 150 shot. (Next season 250 shot, and drop some weight out of the car...3250 pounds now)

Ron

[ultraflo]

Originally posted by jim_howard_pdx
I bet if you retarded the cam 4 to 6 degrees, you would be into the 9's.

Well... it's a little late for that my friend I have a nice Danny Bee beltdrive setup to play with cam timing on the next combo...
FWIW, there are quite a few things I could've done to get 9's, all of which would've led to an even earlier demise, I imagine

[ultraflo]

Originally posted by Ron1
After seeing the new Dart blocks, I wish it had been available when I purchased my R302. A much better block and a LOT cheaper.

Ron

The Dart block is a just an amazing piece that I drool over every time I come across a picture of it... one day, I tell you

I've had the R-block sitting in a corner in my garage for a little over 2yrs. now... without the proper cash flow to do the work I had originally planned for it. So, now, I'm going to make it a hyd. roller 306 rather than a solid roller 331

I just recently became aware of the cryo-freeze after reading about it all of a couple days ago on 'another' message board

...damn good idea, and sounds like it was a very effective process. I've had numerous 'instances' with the nitrous tune this year. However, I wasn't too far off the tune since I never fried any components (other than the block, of course, lol) or head gaskets throughout the course of the year... rich and lean pops/backfires etc.

[jim_howard_pdx]

Ron,

Are you running a solid block now, or wet?

We raced a 9.20 bracket for 3 years and the only parts we broke were three holes in the cylinder walls. Fords are notorious for thin wall cylinder castings. We sleeved the two cylinders and ran without issue another 2 1/2 years.

We replaced bearings every year, and piston rings too. These are cheap and easy to replace anyway.....

They key to not breaking parts is to eliminate detonation. Look into water injection. There is no better way to control combustion chamber events than water injection. It is simple, painless, it allows you to run much higher static compression than you could ordinarily get away with, and it keeps your combusion and exhaust system "steam cleaned".

Other than controlling the oil inside the crank case, there is no other single thing we did that provided access to great et's.

[Ron1]

Jim,

Nope, did not fill the block. Archie Somers did all the machine work. After all the trouble you had with Bearings Inc. I figured I better stay away from them, and Archie does fantastic work. He finished the TEA CNC'd Victor Jr's for me, did all the flow work as well. Wilson Manifolds had the heads for 2 weeks, and they did the Super Victor now on the car.
As far as a crank scraper is concerned, I don't think one is yet available for the R version.
Well aware of detonation issues. With 12.4 compression just make sure you have the right fuel. I spent some time on the phone with Brandon Switzer and based on his recommendation I went with the VP C16 and it's working out great. Not even a hint of detonation.
I hear your motor was finished about 2 weeks ago. Congrats. How is it running?

Ron

[Mustangboy89]

HEY GUYS I WAS WONDERING COULD U ALL GIVE ME SOME ADVICE ON HOW TO GET INTO THE 10'S I HAVE A SET OF THE NEW TRICKFLOW HIGH PORTS. I DON'T KNOW IF I SHOULD GO WITH A STROKED 351 OR A STROKED 302 I KNOW I WANT TO STAY FUEL INJECTED. ANY ADVICE ON WHAT KIND OF MOTOR TO BUILD WOULD BE HELPFUL THANKS.

[Ron1]

My neighbor has an 86 with a 351 stroked out to 377 inches. EFI, 9.8 to 1 compression, pump gas. Runs consistant hi 10.70's, low 10.80's.
I can ask for his combo if you would like, since he is moving up to a 408.

Ron

[Mustangboy89]

THANKS RON1 I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HIS COMBO THAT WAY I HAVE A IDEA ON HOW TO REACH 10'S I THOUGHT ABOUT BENNETT RACING 382 CUBIC INCH MOTOR THEY TOLD ME THAT IT WOULD RUN MID 10'S ON MOTOR AND 9'S WITH NITROUS.HAVE U HAD ANY EXPERIENCE WITH BENNETT RACING ? THANKS FOR YOUR HELP

[Ron1]

I just sent him an email asking him to send the combo. Have no personal experience with Bennett, but as far as I know they have a good reputation and build quality parts. When it comes to stroker kits, I found no one better, in terms of price and quality, and on time delivery then www.jdsperformance.com in Florida.
If you decide to contact them let me know. Do you have a private email I can send the combo to when I get it? Better to take this off line.

Ron

[Mustangboy89]

my email is mustangboy05@yahoo.com
i also have yahoo messagener
and icq#19104886

thanks for the help

[ultraflo]

Originally posted by Ron1
As far as a crank scraper is concerned, I don't think one is yet available for the R version.

Hey Ron, I've been looking around and found that Canton has both a crank scraper and windage tray available for the R-block... I was also told that FPS has one available as well, haven't yet confirmed that one though.