650HP stock block

[Ron1]

Thanks for the help ultraflow. I just found out Canton has no web site yet. One thing I wanted to mention to you when you do your buildup, I have had very good success with gaskets from Cometic. www.cometic.com They make a MLS (Multi Layer Steel) composite that works great on the R302. You have to call them and the set is made specifically for you. If your bore is lets say 4.040, the gasket is made to that specific size. It is a bit spendy but re-useable. They claims up 15 times for Dyno applications. I also know a lot of the Pro 5.0 guys are using them.

Thanks again and I will check out FPS.

Ron

[jim_howard_pdx]

I must say I am very impressed with the group on this thread.

As for crank scrappers, it is very very simple to make your own. I used to be able to get titanium sheet stock when I was building heat shields for electronics. The stuff was very thin, and very firm. You can probably get some stainless steel stuff pretty easy.

For kit strokers, please look into probe as well. What I like about them is that they will customize your stroker kit for exactly what you want to do. They use ROMAC balancers, which I think is one of the best high rpm balancers for FORDS that I have ever used.

I am especially impressed with their light weight pistons. I really like one kit they did for a friend of mine. The pistons, pins, and rods weighed just 467 grams for a 408 displacement engine. The owner is hunting for the mid 7's on NOS. The 467 grams allows the engine to reciprocate safely to 10,000 RPM.

I cannot remember the manufacturer of the crank, but it was about 1,850 dollars machined. It was built to run 7's at 10,000 RPM. Everything about the crank was gorgeous. Running the ultra light weight pistons and rods allowed us to knife edge the crank AND have it balanced. Ususally when you knife edge a crank, you are not left with enough counterbalance material to use mallory metal to get the engine balanced. The knife edging is critical in the 8 second brackets. Without it, you are just waiting to grenade the crank. It is not a matter of if, but when....

My street rod 358 is back together. The compression is 9.75 to 1. The cam is an Edelbrock RPM unit installed straight up. Later we will try it 2, 4, and 6, degrees retarded. I did alot of extra porting work on my heads this time. I kept the bowls nearly stock less the gubbers I cut off. I also tear dropped the valve guide supports. I widened the ports to 1 5/16 wide and 2 1/4 inches tall. This is just a quarter inch shorter than the 428 ports I ran at 9.23 seconds. I like the trick flow heads even better than the 428 heads. They have better cooling jackets and they do not store heat like cast iron. The cfm flow on these is just stellar for a street engine. My computer predicts 12.00 second quarter mile times with slicks and our 3.25 gears. I figure we will probably be around 12.19 to 12.29 which puts us in the company of 12 cylinder Ferrari's and Lamborghini's. This is a really great street rod engine guys. I am happy to share everything I have done. Only our gas mileage stinks. I might try to get a Holley 900 CFM fuel injector and a victor jr intake. That would put me at 435 HP and about 15 mpg with the C4. It is really time for us to step this car up to a Tremec or a T56 tranny. We could possibly get 16-18 MPG with a good overdrive transmission and fuel injection.

Right now I am not happy with my ignition curve. I have to set initial at 2 degrees to keep maximum advance at 31 degrees. The engine really struggles with this so we run it at 5 now, and keep our foot out of the accelerator. I plan to recurve it this week. I want to have an initial 10-12 degrees advance at idle, and have the advance go up slowly to about 3,800 RPM and max at 30-31 degrees. This is what Denny Aldridge recommended for the car, and I think he is right on target. Ron you probably know Denny. You other guys will just have to trush me when I say he really knows how to button up a 427 SOHC engine!!!!

[Ron1]

Yes Jim, I do know Denny. Since I will be Amber's future father-in-law, I know him quite well.
They were surprised that you had already Dyno'd the motor and had your HP numbers already.
As far as Probe, good stuff. My JE's came in at 458 grams with a .600 dome. Dampners? ATI Super Dampner is my product of choice.

Ron

[ultraflo]

Ron1, here's a link for ya sir...

http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/...pro_power.html

Hopefully, the windage tray will work with the Moroso T-sump pan I already have (which has a sort of generic crank scraper incorporated into it's design)... like Jim stated, I could always make my own scraper. Also, I could always modify the windage tray, as I usually end up modifying everything I buy aftermarket anyhow, lol.

About the head gaskets, I've read nothing but good things about cometic, although I didn't realize they were 'custom' gaskets... which in my mind, is a very good thing. I'm just wondering if I will still need to plug the holes in the deck of the R-block for said gaskets. I was planning on tapping all of them and then drilling the center out of the one's that feed coolant to the heads, something along the lines of a 3/16" hole... undecided at this point, haven't even gotten around to de-burring the block yet, so I'm not in a real big hurry. I'm also debating on whether or not I'm going to use a different piston design.... depends on the money situation, really.

I'm with Ron1 on the choice of damper... ATI Super Damper is what I will be using on the next combo, as I ran a Fluidampr on this last setup... they're hard to beat for a motor that operates under 6000rpm. ATI's own graph showing the difference between two of their own dampers vs. the Fluidampr has the Fluidampr walking all over the competition until the 6000rpm range, and then the Super Damper takes the prize from there on up while the others effectively lose their ability to function properly. I'd like to see where the Romac unit fits into the spectrum...

I'd love to run a Sonny Bryant or equiv. crank, but I'm stuck with the Trick Flow unit for now (beats the hell out of the stocker, at the very least)... I've seen some of the knife edged and polished cranks that've come out of his shop, and they are just simply beautiful! ...I'm going to have to start doing my homework for the combo after the one I'm just getting started on now ...as always, I appreciate the input gentlemen.

-RLS

[Ron1]

RLS..thank you for that link. I will drop an e-mail to see if scraper will work with my pan, and the R302. Presently run an 8 quart Moroso with kick outs.
As far as the plugging the holes in the block...no need to worry on that issue. The Cometic solves that issue. I have had no problems. (Did not have any issues with an early set of Felpro's either)
As far as fluid dampner are concerned..they are very good, but what most people do not realize, is that they can be temperature affected, and react differently on a cold day vs. hot day and that is something you do not want on a balanced motor.

Thanks again for the link..

Ron

[jim_howard_pdx]

Ron,

Denny is great. He and I agree on a great many things. He has seen more broken busted engines than I have, but in southern california where I grew up and raced, I was surrounded by racing giants. It was in a little piece of hot rod heaven. I had Ed Iskedarian grind custom camshafts and build high rpm push rods for my 428 scj racer. I had Chet Herbert sell me his #2 cam that held the current 428 scj bracket for 17 months straight. And it goes on and on, the list of racing legends I got a chance to wrench with.

I had three friends with world record running Hemis, I had two friends campaigning LS 6's and 7's in the 10's. I had two friends running SOHC engines that I wrenched with. I had one friend campaigning an Olds 400 small block at the same 9.25 index as I raced, but he was using direct ported NOS and I was engine only.

I had two friends racing Clevelands, both at 11 second brackets. One very close friend campaigned a pinto with a 550 HP Cleveland and FMX transmission in a mid 9 bracket.

I had two friends racing Pantaras, one set the world record for a gasoline powered turbo ford engine at Bonneville. It has been broken since then, but stood up for 6-8 years.

I canyon raced at Mulhulland, Laurel, and Topanga Canyons. I got to know two outstanding canyon racers. One ran a 135,000 dollar turbo porsche and the other ran a 40,000 LS7 corvette (which unfortunately went over the cliff-driver lived!).

I had two friends autocrossing Cobra kit cars, one with a stroked 460 with aluminum super cobra jet heads and the other with a 427 side oiler using a 428 crank which net 454 cubic inches. Both were well over 400 hp on the rear wheels which in a Cobra can be hairy to say the least.

By the way, the hp and torque numbers I am quoting on my 358 block are projections based on Edelbrock's 358 engine they dyno'd at 401 HP. My trick flow heads out of the box deliver 6 more HP than the RPM Edelbrock heads, and with the port work I have performed I figure another 15 HP to be fairly conservative. I know my modified Holley will out HP the Edelbrock 750 they used on their dyno. But I would rather post conservative numbers than lie. By the way, my car beats a 305 HP Cobra by more than a second at the Quarter mile, and that was with all 16 of my valve guides shot to s h i t. Ask Tom, he will tell you I have never seen worst valve guides in all my years of racing. One of my best friends used to be the head cylinder porter at Valley Head Service. I just wish he could have seen these guides. I must have been sucking a good quart of oil every 4-500 miles from the guides alone.

With the fresh engine, good sealing, cleaner intake charge, a more rod oriented cam shaft, I think low 12's should be easy on slicks.

However, until I actually dyno the engine, and get some passes on the engine I am just bench racing upon what I know to be reliable guestimates. I do not have the money for dyno time now.

Denny has been really, really good to me. I have not found a better more knowledgeable performance shop here in the Portland area. I told Amber and Tom that I will not allow people to bad mouth him when. Most complain that he is too slow, or that he is expensive. That is not a reason to bad mouth a race shop.

Denny will tell you that I have patiently waited for weeks for him to do stuff I could get done in Los Angeles in a few days. He is well worth the wait. Denny is a cut above anyone I know in town, and TOM and AMBER have fun teasing me. D a m n, I am so very easy to tease.

I know Denny to be fair, with STRONG knowledge about racing and building reliable engines. I give Denny my highest rating of any Ford Motorsport dealer I have ever worked with. That is not something to snear at, because down in Los Angeles, there were some AWESOME Ford Motorsport people I visited weekly.

I get a kick out of Denny. He never brags. He is such a great guy. A couple of weeks back, he showed me the 427 SOHC engine he built while he was helping me with my rebuild. You should have seen how proud he was figuring out how to help the customer with the oiling issues. His smile was "soul" deep. Tom told me later that the engine fired right up and sounded different than any other FORD he had ever heard, more like a big block chevy. NO a Cammer sounds only like a Cammer. It is a breed all its own.

Ron, I think it is cool to talk with you. I have not found many people running in the 9's here in Portland. I bet there are less than 20 cars in the area capable of these times. When I raced Pamona, 9 second cars were a dime a dozen. Competition was fierce, and some of the cars were flat out nasty consistent.

Good luck on the crank scrapper. I would give Mustangs Plus a call. Their number is 800-999-4289. They sell 302 and 351 crank scrappers for 14.00. You can easily modify these to fit your rod and rod bolts. ....I would try to help you...., but Denny would warn you not to let me touch your engine. I am bad luck. LOL

I have broken 3 street rod motors in the last 6 years. I was sure each was going to live a long and health life of 200,000 miles or more......

Happy racing. Email me at any time at jim_howard_pdx@yahoo.com. I am looking for a good Ford club to join. Let me know if you know of any. Now that my kids are getting all grown up, it is time to build my next project.

I am happy to take you for a drive in my Stang. I would like Denny to drive it, but he is probably WAY too busy to give me that honor.

[Eric4Nitrous]

Dang Jim, all your posts are like ten pages long.lol Use short quick reply's.lol

[jim_howard_pdx]

Eric,

That is the first knowledgeable post you have made.

LOL

Yes I am a word hog.

LOL

But, I would be still at the tree while your Nova flew across the finish line looking at the 6.8 1/8 mile times at 110 mph. Darn, that engine of yours is a MISSLE.

You said this was a 406 short block? Are you using the GM 18 degree NASCAR heads?

My buddie with the Olds 400 was running Brownfield aluminum heads. I think they were purchased later by either Brodix or some other big racing name. These were the first small block heads by any manufacturer that would turn 2 hp per cubic inch with NOS. That engine ran consistent 9.2's. It actually bent the frame on a Z 28 even with a 6 point roll cage and full frame. The engine ended up in a 57 Chevy and man did that chassis hook up well. The wheel stands were so impressive.

I would love to wrench with you when you first run it on NOS but I am on the other side of the universe.

By the way, I don't really think Nova's are ugly. We ran a 70 Nova with an LS 6 engine. We could never make it sing though. Our time slips were in the 10.1 to 10.3 range. My friend liked the simplicity of a single plane intake. That decision probably limited his times more than any other factor. A tunnel ram would have put him squarely in the 9's. Those LS 6 engines were flat out made for racin.

[Eric4Nitrous]

Thanks for the comments. No the heads on my nova are Brodix. Their ported/polished and all that good stuff. Only Nascar type heads that i have on my vehicle are in my 420ci windsor that's going into my 02GT when it's finished. They are just NASCAR takeoffs.

[jim_howard_pdx]

Well Erik,

I get a laugh when I think about all the over 400 cubic inch big blocks I built so we could run in the 9's and 10's. With the current heads from Dart, TF, Brodix, Edelbrock, Canfield, and others it seems like 9's are just a matter of properly preparing the chassis, and even that is becoming relatively routine. Then you look at specialty oem heads like the Yates heads, all the Ford Motorsport stuff, the remaked Hemi's, the racing Chevy heads, really building power is almost like building something from LEGO. Just find someone running consistent and copy it.

I would love to hear more about your 420 windsor sometime soon. Are you using the Dart block? When I tore apart my 358 a few weeks back, I chastised myself for not putting in a main bearing girdle last time. It is not that 400 HP is going to do alot of core distortion, but anything you can do on a Ford block to keep those main caps tight and secure is just critical. That is one reason I liked racing the 428 scj block. We cross drilled it and ran three seasons with the main bearings and journals looking practically new. Only the rod bearings showed the typical abuse of 700 ft pounds of torque.

We were shocked that the two sleeved pistons ran so well at 9.2. The shop that did the work told me he had 190 mph 427 engines similarly sleeved running upwards of 8,500 RPM without issue. We figured to run the sleeved block long enough to find a side oiler 427. But after the end of the season tear down, we determined no real need to pay the big bucks. A 427 side oiler even back in the 70's was running 3,500.00 prepared.

[Eric4Nitrous]

nope not using the Dart block. I'm using a FRPP 351 block from the motorsports catalog.

[Ron1]

Eric, How big a tire are you running and how much does the car weigh?

Ron

[Eric4Nitrous]

Ron the car isn't completed yet..but when it is..i will be running a 33 1/2 tall 17 inch wide Mickey Thompson ET Drag. Car with me in it should weight 2350. Nitrous cars get huge weightbreaks in NMRA.

[Ron1]

So basically your rear end housing will be about 12 inches wide..and 2350 pounds, how fast are we planning on going? What I find interesting is your 1/8 mile. I looked at my log book, and my best 1/8 was a 6.17, but also at 110 MPH and that at 3250. I was just thinking about what that would have been at 2350....I'm going on a fast...till next March

Ron

[Eric4Nitrous]

I'm not talking about my nova.lol It's only mini-tubbed. My 02 GT that's being built will be the light car with the big tires It should run anywhere from 6.70-6.80's at around 215mph on three stages.

[Ron1]

Holy road apples Batman...high 6's. What is your background in the NMRA? And what did you run before this car? Pictures? And doesn't B.Glidden hold the record at 6.81@208?

ron

[jim_howard_pdx]

I gotta side with Ron here bud,

My computer is saying 7.6 to 7.9 second quarters even with your nitrous triple stage. Now if you go with a 514 stroker with at least 1200 HP then 6's might be yours.

Just figure to run 6's you will need a full space frame chassis, aluminum sheets for floors and side panels, and a weight of 2050 with driver and fuel. You will be hanging on a body just to cut the wind away from the track long enough to rocket down the strip.

Just how long do you expect a 351 block to run 6's or 7's. You had better plan on filling the block and going for some other pretty radical changes.

Gotta say......
I would love to see you do it!

[Eric4Nitrous]

Ron, i haven't had a chance to run NMRA yet because of nitrous backfires and such last season. But this year i have committed to running a full NMRA schedule. The 420 windsor that i'm running this year came out of my 89 GT that i had. It went 7.02 199.96 mph at 2560lbs on TWO stages. So saying it will go 7.6-7.9 this year is just plain out stupid Jim. The car is going to be a Full tube chassis, Set up just like a NHRA pro stocker, Double Chrome-moly frame rails, Stripped out inside with just one racing seat, and full competition cage. haha i don't need a damn 514 to go 6's. My motor dyno'd on two stages at 1653 hp. Put that in a car that weights 2350pds and hello 6's Yes Billy does hold the record for this year, but i can honestly say that he's got something up his sleeve for this coming year and that record won't stay long. I'm not saying my car will break his 208mph record but it will go over 200mph and well into the 6's.

[jim_howard_pdx]

Eric

You the man! Yes you have what it take to go 6 seconds.

Man I would love to wrench on your rocket engine... That must be one sweet ride.

No wonder you give Kevin Price such a rash......

Stay safe friend, 6 seconds is a great et, or the time it takes to call the Coroner. I tell that to my son everytime he races. Safety first.

[Ron1]

Outstanding Eric...when I went for my S/G, S/C license I was strapped into a 7.50 car. Really makes your eye balls jump. Made it in the required number of passes. Pure adrenaline....a great drug. I don't think I wil ever see that ET or MPH again, but I still like the feeling. Maybe some high 8's in mine. Then I will be satisfied....

Ron

Of course I also said that about 12's, 11's, 10's, 9's....